In September 2023, Air France-KLM placed an incremental order for up to 90 Airbus A350s, including 50 firm orders and 40 options. The intent was for these planes to be used for long term fleet renewal across both carriers.
Continue reading: KLM Airbus A350 Will Soon Enter Service, But Business Class Will Stay Empty
Share your questions, experiences, and thoughts below.
KLM's business class is pretty awful anyways. It's probably the worst major airline's business class.
Let me be clear: Lufthansa is a trendsetter. They were the first to fly with an empty business class.
Delta and KLM are just cheap copies.
May the ghost of Captain Frans Banninck Cocq haunt this mobile abortion of an Airpus.
"KLM's business class is pretty awful anyways. It's probably the worst major airline's business class."
Why do you say that? Are you referring to the hard product, soft product, both?
Both. Thankfully, Air France is run as a separate airline because everything about KLM is bad. Lounges, wine, food, etc. They're basically the Easy Jet or Ryan Air of flag carriers.
Sure, AF has better food and wine; but, Nick, they're frequently delayed. At least KL is more reliable. I'd trust a 1-hour connection at AMS; at CDG, no freakin' way...
We got plenty of new A350 newcomers coming online! KLM, EVA, Qantas, Riyadh Air just to name a few. There's also Air Canada that'll come later on top of freighters.
Well, AF may have a more comfortable business class seat; however, KLM has the better flight crews who won't drop you into the Atlantic from 35,000 feet due to incompetence. Nor will they do a low pass into the middle of a pine forest (literally).
No, your flight with KLM will be pleasant and uneventful, which I personally prefer.
Connecting in Amsterdam in an hour is no longer reliable if you need to pass through passport control. It's been that way since the pandemic. You need two hours. CDG has gotten better. AMS has gotten worse.
EU regulation is done at the country level within the EU explaining French interpretation vs Dutch interpretation
Where is your cut-off for historic accidents being used to cast aspersions on an entire work group? Evidently somewhere between 1977 and 1988.
V/F
Huh? Air France is actually in the best tier when it comes to fatality rates per kilometre flown. If you choose not to fly Air France on safety grounds, then you would also have to avoid airlines like American, Iberia, Swiss, Turkish, Korean Air, or Ethiopian. I would pay more attention to the airplane, and realistically avoid anything Boeing if you think in terms of safety records.
Nick, that depends on time of day; like, yes, non-Schengen to Schengen can be a wait, but they still get it done. If you're running late, or a tight connection, the staff at AMS is still fairly accommodating. At CDG, sheesh, you're on your own, have to take the train between terminals, additional security, etc., and that's if AF isn't super-delayed, which they often are.
What a horrid sardine can. 331 seats on an A350-900. Finnair's high density A350-900 has 321 seats, Scandinavian's A350-900 has 300 seats. Both of which has 9 lavatories, KLM only offers 7 for the higher passenger count. It does not really look like a great passenger experience.
Heck, JAL has fewer seats on their A350-1000.
But, Finnair has those awful seats on some aircraft… and, if they let you down, you get stuck… in HEL! (Ahh! Moomin, everywhere!)
The comparison only gets worse if we only compare to Scandinavian Airlines, as their seat count is lower than Finnair. That would make KLM's A350 an even worse sardine can relatively speaking.
Airbus likes to talk about their spacious cabins, but they are incredibly creative when it comes to help their customers shoehorn in a remarkable number of passengers. Should their customers so desire....
I'm not an uncle and I avoid Thanksgiving get-togethers since Thanksgiving is near my birthday and I'm usually depressed.
I've found KLM to be just OK. Since Amsterdam is never my destination, Schiphol is just a connecting airport. And, prior to EES, Schiphol is a schihole for International to Schengen transfers (and vice versa). Post EES, it sounds worse, though that is true of many airports.
KLM's business class is pretty awful anyways. It's probably the worst major airline's business class.
"KLM's business class is pretty awful anyways. It's probably the worst major airline's business class."
Why do you say that? Are you referring to the hard product, soft product, both?
Both. Thankfully, Air France is run as a separate airline because everything about KLM is bad. Lounges, wine, food, etc. They're basically the Easy Jet or Ryan Air of flag carriers.
Sure, AF has better food and wine; but, Nick, they're frequently delayed. At least KL is more reliable. I'd trust a 1-hour connection at AMS; at CDG, no freakin' way...
Connecting in Amsterdam in an hour is no longer reliable if you need to pass through passport control. It's been that way since the pandemic. You need two hours. CDG has gotten better. AMS has gotten worse.
Nick, that depends on time of day; like, yes, non-Schengen to Schengen can be a wait, but they still get it done. If you're running late, or a tight connection, the staff at AMS is still fairly accommodating. At CDG, sheesh, you're on your own, have to take the train between terminals, additional security, etc., and that's if AF isn't super-delayed, which they often are.
*cries in lack of Delft Blue Houses*
Let me be clear: Lufthansa is a trendsetter. They were the first to fly with an empty business class.
Delta and KLM are just cheap copies.
May the ghost of Captain Frans Banninck Cocq haunt this mobile abortion of an Airpus.
I bet you're the uncle who nobody wants to sit next to at Thanksgiving.
I'm not an uncle and I avoid Thanksgiving get-togethers since Thanksgiving is near my birthday and I'm usually depressed.
We got plenty of new A350 newcomers coming online! KLM, EVA, Qantas, Riyadh Air just to name a few. There's also Air Canada that'll come later on top of freighters.
Lol Air Canada has become a budget carrier, when they finally decide what they are doing with the 350-1000 trust me it will be NASTY 🤢. They currently fly the 777-300 with 450 passengers.
The business seats in the photo are uncomfortable and not worth the fare .
Well, AF may have a more comfortable business class seat; however, KLM has the better flight crews who won't drop you into the Atlantic from 35,000 feet due to incompetence. Nor will they do a low pass into the middle of a pine forest (literally).
No, your flight with KLM will be pleasant and uneventful, which I personally prefer.
Where is your cut-off for historic accidents being used to cast aspersions on an entire work group? Evidently somewhere between 1977 and 1988.
V/F
Huh? Air France is actually in the best tier when it comes to fatality rates per kilometre flown. If you choose not to fly Air France on safety grounds, then you would also have to avoid airlines like American, Iberia, Swiss, Turkish, Korean Air, or Ethiopian. I would pay more attention to the airplane, and realistically avoid anything Boeing if you think in terms of safety records.
Did American have a single fatal accident between 2001 and 2025, when an air force pilot decided to fly a little lpw
Man, these certification issues are getting out of hand.
EU regulation is done at the country level within the EU explaining French interpretation vs Dutch interpretation
Isn’t the certification done by EASA at an EU-wide level, based on EU-level Regulations rather than national-level implementations of Directives?
What a horrid sardine can. 331 seats on an A350-900. Finnair's high density A350-900 has 321 seats, Scandinavian's A350-900 has 300 seats. Both of which has 9 lavatories, KLM only offers 7 for the higher passenger count. It does not really look like a great passenger experience.
Heck, JAL has fewer seats on their A350-1000.
But, Finnair has those awful seats on some aircraft… and, if they let you down, you get stuck… in HEL! (Ahh! Moomin, everywhere!)
The comparison only gets worse if we only compare to Scandinavian Airlines, as their seat count is lower than Finnair. That would make KLM's A350 an even worse sardine can relatively speaking.
Airbus likes to talk about their spacious cabins, but they are incredibly creative when it comes to help their customers shoehorn in a remarkable number of passengers. Should their customers so desire....
You can't compare it just by total seat count. SK's A359 has 40C + 32W + 228M. KL's A359 has 34C + 26W + 271M. The extra room that C and W seats take, might very well explain why SK has a lower total number of seats.
(For reference, JAL's A350-1000 contains 6P + 54C (!) + 24W + 155M)
I've found KLM to be just OK. Since Amsterdam is never my destination, Schiphol is just a connecting airport. And, prior to EES, Schiphol is a schihole for International to Schengen transfers (and vice versa). Post EES, it sounds worse, though that is true of many airports.
Oh, you actually attempted the ole ‘Schiphol’ sounds like ‘sh*thole’ bit. Niccce. (They are completing that new terminal, so it’s getting better. My only real gripe is whenever we get the runway at AMS that’s like miles away… 20 minutes taxiing.)
It has Stelia Opera seats as on Air France, however, the pitch is different according to AeroLOPA.
The Opera seat on AF has 43" pitch, and it's 42" on KLM to put 2 more business seats in the same footprint.
The pitch difference explains the certification challenge. When anything changes, it has to be re-certified.
Also, authorities like FAA and EASA update their certification criteria so often that even the same product has to be re-certified if it's a new order. It's such a waste of resources..
Also, some(presumably most) of the economy seats on KL A359 is 30".
Dutch people are the tallest in the world, but their airline is introducing tighter and tigher cabins. 28" on A321neo, and 30" on A359..
Tanzania getting most of the routes! A rare win for the east African nation. Bah!
RyaLM dba KLM is the international low-cost carrier to Air France. Everything they do is lowbrow and anti-customer-friendly.
If they want to behave like a holiday carrier, then stop pretending to be a business airline.
AMS is a horrible airport to connect through, and forget about the worst arrival experience you can imagine. Looooon long walks, hard to find lounges. Literally no signs.
Airport staff are quite nice. KLM FA's are miserable c's and quite racist. Must work real well for all their flights to Africa (with JNB and CPT being the exception).
This is on trend for them.