In the past couple of weeks, we’ve seen two catastrophic accidents involving US-based airlines. Obviously our political climate is incredibly polarizing nowadays, and DEI has become a big topic. In the aftermath of both of these accidents, many people immediately suggested that DEI (diversity, equity, and inclusion) practices might be to blame.
If you look on social media, it’s clear that some people think that airlines are hiring pilots with little to no experience, simply because of the color of their skin or their gender. So in this post, I want to talk a bit about that. Look, obviously I have my own political beliefs, but I’m genuinely trying to come at this in as balanced of a way as possible, and if you read what I actually write, I think you’ll recognize that.
In this post:
The requirements to become an airline pilot are steep
Do you take issue with airlines hiring inexperienced pilots simply because they are a minority of some sort? So do I! But that’s also not what’s going on at airlines.
In the United States, we have the highest requirements of anywhere in the world to become a commercial pilot. It takes a lot of time, and costs a lot of money. While people land airline jobs through a variety of means (some attend a flight training academy, some join the military, some become flight instructors, etc.), the requirements are steep.
For one, to get your Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) certification, you need at least 1,500 flight hours. That’s a lot of flying, and is a multiple of the requirement in much of the rest of the world. So you not only gain experience, but you have to complete all kinds of tests, with objective standards used to pass them. To be clear, there’s no DEI fast track to becoming a pilot. You need to meet the requirements, and that’s that.
The above are the minimum requirements to becoming an airline pilot, but obviously not all airline pilots have the same amount of experience. Like any profession, experience matters, and of course you’d probably rather fly with a senior pilot who has 20,000+ hours, than someone who freshly earned their ATP certificate.
The pilot shortage has reduced flight deck experience
Factually, the average pilot in the flight deck of an airliner doesn’t have as much experience as they did 10 years ago. That’s not due to DEI, but rather, due to the pilot shortage that originated during the pandemic.
At the start of the pandemic, many senior pilots took early retirement packages, given that the demand for travel completely cratered. Airlines had way more pilots than they needed, and due to the CARES Act, airlines couldn’t lay off pilots, but could instead offer early retirement packages, so that’s what airlines did.
Travel demand ended up recovering faster than most people expected, and airlines quickly added back capacity. This also caused a huge pilot hiring spree. For some time, we had a significant pilot shortage. Because the requirements to become an airline pilot are so high, the industry suddenly found itself in a situation where there just weren’t enough pilots, given the number of experienced pilots who had retired.
In the United States, the way it generally works is that once pilots get their ATP certificate, they start off at a regional airline to gain experience. Then once they rack up more hours, they eventually move to their “forever airline,” which would typically be a carrier like American, Delta, Southwest, United, etc.
Then they work their way through the ranks, since seniority is what determines where you can be based, what kind of a schedule you can get, whether you’re first officer or captain, etc.
Once air travel demand started recovering after the pandemic, we saw a few things happening:
- Mainline carriers started hiring pilots with fewer hours than they may have in the past; this wasn’t due to any DEI practices, but just because there weren’t enough pilots
- People were promoted from first officer to captain with a lot less experience than pre-pandemic, simply because there was a shortage of captains (so many retired); nowadays there are some wide body captains at the “big three” US carriers in their 20s, which would’ve been unheard of 10 years ago
- The pilot shortage was so bad that many regional airlines had to ground planes altogether, because they didn’t have enough pilots to fly them
The point is that basically anyone who had all the certifications required to be a pilot could land a job at an airline. It doesn’t matter the gender or race or anything else. Airlines weren’t like “well, since we can only hire white dudes, let’s just ground these planes until we can find more minorities.”
Pilots are currently less experienced than they were 10 years ago, and that’s due to the number of retirements we saw at the start of the pandemic, rather than due to any DEI initiatives.
Where airlines do use controversial DEI practices
As I said above, I’m trying to be unbiased here, so it’s important to address this. If you’re going to make an argument about DEI being used for pilots, there’s one area where it absolutely is used — that’s with pilot training academies.
We’re starting to see some airlines set up subsidiaries that are essentially pilot training academies. Airlines haven’t historically had to do this, but the hope is that this gets a more consistent pipeline of pilots coming into the industry.
For example, there’s United Aviate, which is a pilot career development academy. This is an academy that trains people with no flying experience to become airline pilots. It in no way lowers the requirements to get your certifications and become a pilot, and it also doesn’t guarantee you a job at the airline. Furthermore, this is only one of many pathways to becoming an airline pilot, as there are endless other ways to do so as well.
Yes, United Aviate uses DEI, and promotes how it hopes to have a certain percentage of minority cadets, who historically might not have had the opportunity to become pilots.
Now, some people will argue that “I want the best pilots, regardless of the color of their skin.” I hear you, and I completely agree. What that misses is that these academies aren’t hiring pilots, they’re accepting people who want to train to become pilots.
If you’re starting from scratch, what are the metrics by which we should judge who is “best?” Should an IQ test be performed? Should it be the person who has the most traditional schooling, with an MBA preferred? Should it be the oldest person? The youngest person?
This is of course where we can get into a discussion about DEI, but I don’t think it’s relevant to the core of peoples’ concerns about the impact of DEI on the existing safety infrastructure in the industry.
The reason it’s not relevant is because these people still have to complete all certifications (with the highest requirements in the world) before they’re actually in the cockpit of an airliner. If we get to the point where white guys with 5,000 flight hours aren’t landing jobs at airlines while others are landing jobs with 1,500 flight hours, then I’ll be right there with you, in expressing my concerns, and calling that out. But it just doesn’t reflect the current reality.
Bottom line
In light of recent accidents, there’s a lot of misinformation about how DEI is used in the airline industry when it comes to hiring pilots. The current lack of experience we see in flight decks (compared to a decade ago) is ultimately a “juniority” problem, that originated due to senior pilots retiring at the start of the pandemic.
I’m not saying that this has been the cause of any accidents, but rather, my point is that there has been such a pilot shortage that basically anyone who has had the proper certifications has been able to land a job at an airline over the past several years. Fortunately the US has very high standards when it comes to requirements to become an airline pilot.
The true purpose of DEI as a political concept is to encourage Americans to look at an accident with male PIC’s + female FO’s and then get them to think “obviously the female FO did this.”
Same goes for the DC disaster, where 85% of the pilots involved were male.
We are facing a skill shortage across occupations, and if we keep assuming only white men can do things, we are going to get *the worst of white men* while excluding *the best of everyone else*.
The sad thing is that politicians sold DEI into a racial/LGBTQ hate thing to get it abolished. Women are protected by DEI and they do contribute unique skills, love seeing Women pilots. Veterans are protected by DEI and I am quite comfortable with a Veteran Pilot getting the job even though he scored a few points less. That veteran has maybe thousands of ours of combat flight time and has split second experiences another may...
The sad thing is that politicians sold DEI into a racial/LGBTQ hate thing to get it abolished. Women are protected by DEI and they do contribute unique skills, love seeing Women pilots. Veterans are protected by DEI and I am quite comfortable with a Veteran Pilot getting the job even though he scored a few points less. That veteran has maybe thousands of ours of combat flight time and has split second experiences another may not, again a set of skills that is not quantifiable, but diverting missiles should be much more of a challenge than saying hi to the passengers in a speech. Then you add the security aspect, after defending the country, that would add points in my book. Unfortunately, enough corporations have caved into the pressure of removing DEI, private corporations, as politicians tied it to homophobia and racial bias, the same politicians that promote" hands off business". I believe in Karma, but what is being done in schools will blow up in their faces, as the dominant race will not be the one they are counting on; as you ban diversity, I guarantee the new #1 will not be the one they are betting on. The women supporting this banning need to remember, many of the top schools allowed them in for the first time because of DEI. Until that point, it was one race, and one gender, at most top schools, but we forget too quickly. Banning university courses or loose the federal funds, feels like we moving to 1939. Never heard of anyone being forced to take a course, you want it, you take it. Not anymore, course needs to be cleared by the almighty.
You can't fight a religious cult with facts. MAGA are cult members, full stop. Only dogma matters. All Hail The King.
Legacy captain here. A pilot isn’t the same as another just because they have an ATP certificate. That’s like saying all college graduates are the same. Qualified doesn’t mean competitive. How pilots stand out among other pilots are their objective and subjective qualities…
Grades in school, Highest level of academic achievement, safety record, level of experience, complexity of experience, how well spoken they are to interact with passengers, letters of recommendations, interaction with the community....
Legacy captain here. A pilot isn’t the same as another just because they have an ATP certificate. That’s like saying all college graduates are the same. Qualified doesn’t mean competitive. How pilots stand out among other pilots are their objective and subjective qualities…
Grades in school, Highest level of academic achievement, safety record, level of experience, complexity of experience, how well spoken they are to interact with passengers, letters of recommendations, interaction with the community.
I’ve flown with quite a few pilots over the years at a regional and at mainline that are simply poor professionals and shouldn’t be there. They are not equal to others just because they have their ATP multi-engine land certificate.
Airlines should always be hiring the most competitive applicants that meet high metrics of quality. Not applicants that simply meet bare minimum ATP qualifications.
Lucky,
Thank you for taking time to address DEI, specifically. I have been a long time supporter of this blog and I greatly appreciate your willingness to clarify something that, for otherwise genuinely intelligent people, needs no clarification.
I am very close to completing requirements to obtain my PPL(A). Aviation has been a lifelong aspiration of mine. However, as a Black woman from Louisiana, becoming a pilot was not a realistic goal as there...
Lucky,
Thank you for taking time to address DEI, specifically. I have been a long time supporter of this blog and I greatly appreciate your willingness to clarify something that, for otherwise genuinely intelligent people, needs no clarification.
I am very close to completing requirements to obtain my PPL(A). Aviation has been a lifelong aspiration of mine. However, as a Black woman from Louisiana, becoming a pilot was not a realistic goal as there was no clear point of entry for me.
I am now in my 40s. I'm a federal contractor who is currently stationed in Germany. I have a wonderful career...but it has never been my absolute passion -- which is flying. I joined a flight club in my area...the rest is becoming a part of my story!
DEI creates room for capable people like me who, in spaces such as aviation, would not otherwise have a realistic opportunity to show up.
DEI would not exist had there not been a legitimate need for it. There is, indeed, a legitimate need for it. I am proof.
Thank you for recognizing this, Ben.
so what was preventing you from joining a Aviation club before DEI?
Are you implying that aviation is populated with racist white men? And what proof do you have?
Ben, Thanks for this thoughtful, reasoned, fact-based analysis. We need this sort of thinking more desperately than ever these days.
The Atlas Air B767 crash was a DEI hire who failed check rides and training at Atlas and other carriers.
The United FO that nearly destroyed a B767 in IAH was a low time DEI hire who was on performance monitoring.
There’s no margin for overlooking competence in order to hire in this manner.
The purpose of the civil rights laws was to allow an individual to be hired because of who they are as a human being, their brain.... and not because of their sex, gender, race, religion, color, national origin, marital status, or sexual preference.
Does this mean that the factors that should influence someone being hired or promoted to any position should be their qualifications along with their drive, determination, and self discipline.
My question...
The purpose of the civil rights laws was to allow an individual to be hired because of who they are as a human being, their brain.... and not because of their sex, gender, race, religion, color, national origin, marital status, or sexual preference.
Does this mean that the factors that should influence someone being hired or promoted to any position should be their qualifications along with their drive, determination, and self discipline.
My question is .... if we label individuals, and we hire or promote based on that label to influence statistics, are we then violating the civil rights laws?
The purpose of the civil rights laws was also so that people could not be discriminated against when hiring when it came to sex, gender, race, religion, color, national origin, marital status, or sexual preference. And lets be honest, many people are still being discriminated against today for those reasons.
But not the same people.
DEI needs to go away period, regardless of where it's being implemented. We already have EEO and up until recently we've had affirmative action. We are way passed the time where these programs were needed in the early 1960's
Except they are still needed today, sadly.
If pilot training is anything like medical training there is a huge push to graduate anyone who starts. There are only a fixed number of training slots in both careers. Look at the objective median MCAT scores delineated by race, ethnicity and gender. It will be clear that those with lower entering scores must be much better medical students in order to graduate with those that started from a higher level. Or the system pushes...
If pilot training is anything like medical training there is a huge push to graduate anyone who starts. There are only a fixed number of training slots in both careers. Look at the objective median MCAT scores delineated by race, ethnicity and gender. It will be clear that those with lower entering scores must be much better medical students in order to graduate with those that started from a higher level. Or the system pushes through those who started the pipeline. Draw your own conclusions. But look at the actual data before drawing those conclusions. I want my pilot and my surgeon to be in their position solely on merit. There are many meritorious people from all walks of life. They just don’t always look like the population at large.
you know the minorities score lower in most conventional tests for various reasons unrelated to their intelligence? For example, there are a lot of studies using randomized control trials where a random subgroup of subjects were told that they were bad or good at these exams or had lower IQ (mostly women and minorities) and the ones told negative things about them actually score lower in these tests than the same group that have been...
you know the minorities score lower in most conventional tests for various reasons unrelated to their intelligence? For example, there are a lot of studies using randomized control trials where a random subgroup of subjects were told that they were bad or good at these exams or had lower IQ (mostly women and minorities) and the ones told negative things about them actually score lower in these tests than the same group that have been told positive things etc? Anyway, all I am saying is that the statistics you use to judge these can be already biased so get your facts correct before making such a biased decision again and further make things worse. For me, as long as the final passing test is equal for everyone, it should not be an issue. Actually, I do prefer minority doctors because statistically speaking they made a lot more effort and had to pass so many hurdles to get there so I assume they are slightly more skilled and compassionate...
It's painfully obvious that you don't watch any episodes of YouTube channel Pilot Debrief by Hoover. Dozens and dozens of flight deck crews have been discovered over the years of US based carrier pilots failing checkrides multiple times and being given failing marks all around and still being allowed to fly regardless of the reason. As a former pilot and son of FAA veteran ATC employee, the standards HAVE been relaxed in many cases irrespective...
It's painfully obvious that you don't watch any episodes of YouTube channel Pilot Debrief by Hoover. Dozens and dozens of flight deck crews have been discovered over the years of US based carrier pilots failing checkrides multiple times and being given failing marks all around and still being allowed to fly regardless of the reason. As a former pilot and son of FAA veteran ATC employee, the standards HAVE been relaxed in many cases irrespective of DEI. You should really do better research before putting out this nonsense.
oh yes, I'm sure YouTube offers the best research
"If you’re starting from scratch, what are the metrics by which we should judge who is “best?”"
Good decision making skills, ability to handle stress, and ability and retain and understand enormous amounts of technical knowledge--these things can all be tested as part of the screening process for the school. Wiggling the sticks around and pushing buttons in order to make the aircraft move how you want it to is not very difficult (with enough...
"If you’re starting from scratch, what are the metrics by which we should judge who is “best?”"
Good decision making skills, ability to handle stress, and ability and retain and understand enormous amounts of technical knowledge--these things can all be tested as part of the screening process for the school. Wiggling the sticks around and pushing buttons in order to make the aircraft move how you want it to is not very difficult (with enough practice), and it's also an extremely small part of being a pilot
You make it sounds like these training programs are willing to accept anybody off the street--which I hope it's more complicated than that, because if so, then it's extremely problematic. If they're anything like military flight schools (which is what I'm familiar with), they are not designed to wash anybody out or make people fail; they are designed to give you enough practice and training to make it to the next phase.
The screening and "washing out" should happen before people get there. If the screening process is flawed (because they're prioritizing DEI traits as much as they're prioritizing personality traits and general aptitude), then the pilots produced are going to be flawed as well. Yes, somebody may be qualified to do this, but it doesn't meant that they're the best person for it.
Im a PPL old school 1990s learning, I see today standards have dropped DEI or No DEI, many cant use a E6B or draw tracks on a paper map, follow the magenta line and DEI is not a good outcome
I live in South Africa. We have DEI. It's mandated into law and affects everything including aviation, that's why your president and a former citizen of ours are threatening to withhold US funding. It certainly exists. Whether it's justified or not, is a different argument.
Many pilots also became disabled from Covid and the vaccines. Those who study vaccine injuries have been warning for a while about potential airplane crashes since pilots were mandated to take the vaccines. (Although I know a number of them who bought vaccine cards on the black market.)
Nonsense
Absolutely un-true. No basis is any fact whatsoever.
Commented this Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetist.
Gotta love it when people make up random crap and post it here. @CSue, which study are you referring to. Black Market vaccine cards? Are you serious? Again, lots of "facts" without anything to back them up.
https://www.vox.com/policy/399952/dei-history-success-failure-diversity-equity-inclusion
This article just came out today and it is an interesting read.
Serious question but why are white people so obsessed over race?
JJ why the need to troll with an inherently racist post like that masquerading as ignorance.
Please stop
@Jake212
That's not trolling, that's a legitimate question.
Trump and his cohorts are absolutely obsessed and xenophobic. Ironic from a bunch of mostly white people who are entirely unqualified to be in government. President Musk is trying to get involved with many aspects of society and we should be very concerned.
Similarly, nobody obsesses over gender or polices "correct" language more than contemporary American conservatives
Whites are pummeled with it daily.
If someone robs me and I describe them to police, I'm called racist.
If someone less-qualified (but meeting "the standard") is hired over me and I complain, I'm called racist.
If someone attacks a member of my family and I describe them to police, I'm called racist.
Not a mention for how the FAA destroyed the traditional pilot pipeline 15 years ago with the Colgan air rule?
Most people are missing the point.
Stupid conservatives keep talking about unqualified making it too easy for liberals to refute like this.
DEI doesn't mean unqualified.
In it's simplest comparison.
If 2 person graduated from the same college with same courses.
One with a 2.0 GPA the other with summa cum laude 4.0 GPA.
Both DID graduate with the same degree so both ARE equally qualified.
Who would likely be...
Most people are missing the point.
Stupid conservatives keep talking about unqualified making it too easy for liberals to refute like this.
DEI doesn't mean unqualified.
In it's simplest comparison.
If 2 person graduated from the same college with same courses.
One with a 2.0 GPA the other with summa cum laude 4.0 GPA.
Both DID graduate with the same degree so both ARE equally qualified.
Who would likely be the better candidate?
The diverse barely graduated or the summa cum laude?
And please don't be stupid and actually still make this entirely about race. The white dude could have had 2.0 and the minority female could have had 4.0 too.
Didn’t know graduating from a college is such a big proof of one’s intelligence. By that logic, Gates, Jobs, Zuckerberg are dumb and Jeffrey Skilling, John Thain, Rajat Gupta are all so smart.
What an interesting response, to an entirely different irrelevant subject.
The only proof is your intelligence. Not so smart are you.
it's big enough that more than half of all Americans haven't done it. Picking out a handful of outliers from several hundred million people is not the flex you think it is (and is also pretty off-topic).
It is absolutely relevant argument. A college degree/grades has nothing to do with one’s intelligence. There’s a difference between knowledge and intelligence/wisdom. College degree/grades just prove one has knowledge, it doesn’t prove that person knows how to use that knowledge.
As I said earlier, talking sense to you folks is like https://youtu.be/JMJXvsCLu6s?si=TuKQ-8omz4BdcJVc.
Reminds me of a joke I saw recently about doctors
What do you call the person who graduated at the bottom of his medical school class?
Doctor
Not a small number of medical students are expelled due to failure
There’s a lot of subjectivity that goes into a Company checkride or FAA checkride (probably conducted by a “delegated” Company check airman). And “discretion.” Imagine that check airman being a weak personality under pressure to OK as many minority and female captains “as possible.” And signing off on “line training.” And “sim checkrides.” It is happening, folks. The regional “farm team” airlines are not what you want to be flying in bad weather or on...
There’s a lot of subjectivity that goes into a Company checkride or FAA checkride (probably conducted by a “delegated” Company check airman). And “discretion.” Imagine that check airman being a weak personality under pressure to OK as many minority and female captains “as possible.” And signing off on “line training.” And “sim checkrides.” It is happening, folks. The regional “farm team” airlines are not what you want to be flying in bad weather or on complex airspace approaches. Just my opinion. Fine in chief pilot weather. But when it’s at minima or into DCA type airspace, just say no, and re-schedule onto big iron (mainline with full legacy pilots).
@ Romuald Holubowicz -- Let me play along. I'm curious, how long do you think this has been the case for? Do you think check airmen are always 100% objective with signing off white males, and they're only not objective with "DEI" folks? And are you suggesting that the company literally tells the check airmen "hey, if a female screws something up during the check ride, don't report it?"
its active push in my country Australia 90% of CASA ARNs (Aviation reference number) ie Pilots ATC, UAV pilots & Engineers are too male and white, the minister for Aviation & Gender wants less white and men, been stated, for example around 20% of woman and minorities are doing Aerospace engineering thats a too small number been said got a push for 40% new hires in Aerospace technology women & minorities, so yes there is a push
So we go from "Imagine that ..." to "It is happening" immediately, without even a courtesy pause to pick up some evidence along the way.
I guess in this day an age, that is what passes as a convincing argument. Hey, you're in good company, even presidents do it.
How many fatal accidents among US carriers have occurred with non-white non-male pilots?
Who knows? Until the DC crash we hadn't had a commercial crash since 2009.
So i guess, if you're looking for an answer...you won't find one,because it's all about meeting requirements and hours, NOT about gender or color.
"Who knows? Until the DC crash we hadn't had a commercial crash since 2009"
Right, because we don't have records pre-dating 2009, or something?
TF kind of answer was that, lol
@ImmortalSynn -
Your post just took me out
Seriously, though, WTF lol
Fake news. There have been several crashes in the US since 2009, some of them with larger planes, like the 777 and 767
I work for an airline. I've watched firsthand people who have been hired based on race and sex, even though they were initially rejected by the interview committee for complete lack of experience. I've watched those same individuals not pass peer reviewed probation periods and still be overridden by the company and retained as an employee. DEI is real, is always placed above safety, and I've watched it bite the company in the ass every...
I work for an airline. I've watched firsthand people who have been hired based on race and sex, even though they were initially rejected by the interview committee for complete lack of experience. I've watched those same individuals not pass peer reviewed probation periods and still be overridden by the company and retained as an employee. DEI is real, is always placed above safety, and I've watched it bite the company in the ass every time when management refused to heed the feedback of the employees during their initial interviews and probation.
Have you never in your career seen a white person hired, that was less qualified than other (maybe white, maybe diverse) candidates because they had something in common with the hiring manager? Same alma mater, same fraternity, same faith, etc.? Because that absolutely happens as well. That's why DEI started - because diverse candidates would get passed over by less qualified white candidates where the hiring managers wanted someone similar to them background wise.
...Have you never in your career seen a white person hired, that was less qualified than other (maybe white, maybe diverse) candidates because they had something in common with the hiring manager? Same alma mater, same fraternity, same faith, etc.? Because that absolutely happens as well. That's why DEI started - because diverse candidates would get passed over by less qualified white candidates where the hiring managers wanted someone similar to them background wise.
You're painting DEI as if every instance and implementation of it is the same. There are absolutely cases in DEI where a less qualified candidate is hired. Your example doesn't specifically call out pilots because that doesn't seem to be happening there but I get that there are other jobs that impact safety. However, just because you've seen a bad implementation of DEI, doesn't mean all efforts are bad. Again - if the goal is meritocratic hiring, there are lots of instances where white folks get hired not based on the merits and if we abandoned all DEI efforts, we'd go back to that happening on a wider basis.
I do not think the answer is lowering standards (and some companies have taken that approach in certain cases) - that leads to bad outcomes across the board. You get bad results within the organization, you set up that employee to fail, and you pain all diverse hires with a negative stigma even if they would have been hired purely on merits (this is a particularly bad side effect).
*paint
@jetset
A very valid point. But it works both ways or more accurately it doesn't work either way.
You don't counter a broken system by balancing it with another broken system.
Even with DEI, if the hiring managers have bias, they will always have bias. Forcing another bias doesn't make it equal at all.
DEI doesn't solve the bias but rather it introduce even more bias.
Bravo to jetset
Absolutely agree, however, there are companies that don't understand that DEI needs to happen in conjunction with experience, not in place of it. It doesn't mean you get rid of DEI, just apply it as part of a whole process adjacent to the other criteria.
I'm guessing there are white males that have gotten the same treatment but you have blinders on. Your brain wants to see a certain pattern so it ignores evidence to the contrary.
@Roman
Which airline is this? And when has it biten your company in the ass? Please provide actual examples and statistics otherwise anyone can write what you wrote without actual proof.
Atlas 3591. FO was a diversity hire, and killed 2 other pilots. But I guess that doesn't count because passengers weren't involved?
You might want to just stay in your lane and only report about frequent flyer programs and hotels.
DEI has existed in the airlines, and still exists in the airlines. The risks of such hires getting on property and onto the flightdeck have been significantly mitigated with PRD rolling out (though there are...
Atlas 3591. FO was a diversity hire, and killed 2 other pilots. But I guess that doesn't count because passengers weren't involved?
You might want to just stay in your lane and only report about frequent flyer programs and hotels.
DEI has existed in the airlines, and still exists in the airlines. The risks of such hires getting on property and onto the flightdeck have been significantly mitigated with PRD rolling out (though there are still some PRIA loopholes which will remain for a decade or so). Training has gotten better, and people slipping through the cracks has gotten more rare.
@ Robert -- So let's talk about that topic for a second. Based on the crash report, it does seem like the Atlas Air FO had some issues with check rides, and pilot error was a factor. And yes, he was a minority.
When we talk about DEI, it's about minorities getting jobs in lieu of white men, right? But that doesn't describe the Atlas Air crash.
When he was hired, Atlas Air was absolutely...
@ Robert -- So let's talk about that topic for a second. Based on the crash report, it does seem like the Atlas Air FO had some issues with check rides, and pilot error was a factor. And yes, he was a minority.
When we talk about DEI, it's about minorities getting jobs in lieu of white men, right? But that doesn't describe the Atlas Air crash.
When he was hired, Atlas Air was absolutely desperate for pilots, as the company didn't want to negotiate a new contract. The pilot shortage was so bad at the airline that the company had to cancel flights because of it.
So perhaps the company didn't necessarily attract the best talent, and perhaps the company overlooked some things on check rides, due to how desperate it was for pilots.
But that's not what DEI is. That's just a company that's desperate for pilots, and it happened to be that this pilot was a minority. Over the years, how many accidents have we seen that were due to pilot error, where it was a white male who was responsible? Why is this any different?
Or do you have a different definition of "diversity hire" than I do, when a company is struggling to attract any talent at all, and will basically hire anyone who has sufficient hours who checks all the boxes?
@Ben -
Hard disagree here on your assessment of the Atlas FO hire process. By your account you’re implying Atlas couldn’t find any white pilots to hire so therefore they hired whatever they could, in this case the minority FO who wasn’t qualified (multiple tests and checks showed that).
On August 6, 2020, the NTSB posted the final accident report to their website, which stated:
The NTSB determines that the probable cause of this...
@Ben -
Hard disagree here on your assessment of the Atlas FO hire process. By your account you’re implying Atlas couldn’t find any white pilots to hire so therefore they hired whatever they could, in this case the minority FO who wasn’t qualified (multiple tests and checks showed that).
On August 6, 2020, the NTSB posted the final accident report to their website, which stated:
The NTSB determines that the probable cause of this accident was the inappropriate response by the first officer as the pilot flying to an inadvertent activation of the go-around mode, which led to his spatial disorientation and nose-down control inputs that placed the airplane in a steep descent from which the crew did not recover. Contributing to the accident was the captain's failure to adequately monitor the airplane's flightpath and assume positive control of the airplane to effectively intervene. **Also contributing were systemic deficiencies in the aviation industry's selection and performance measurement practices, which failed to address the first officer's aptitude-related deficiencies and maladaptive stress response.**
Many white pilots were passed over for this job for an unqualified minority. That is DEI
"Many white pilots were passed over for this job for an unqualified minority. That is DEI"
No, it isn't. What Ben was saying was that nobody else wanted the job, so that guy was hired. Many other white pilots were NOT passed over since they weren't applying for that job.
Once, Ned Yost (then KC Royals Manager) was asked about demoting his 3rd base player due to poor play (I think it was a young Mike Moustakas). His response: "sure, I'll just pluck another one off of the 3rd baseman tree" (or something to that effect). His point was that elite talent is rare and hard to replace. Even sub-par MLB players that fans hate are often much more talented than their AAA or AA...
Once, Ned Yost (then KC Royals Manager) was asked about demoting his 3rd base player due to poor play (I think it was a young Mike Moustakas). His response: "sure, I'll just pluck another one off of the 3rd baseman tree" (or something to that effect). His point was that elite talent is rare and hard to replace. Even sub-par MLB players that fans hate are often much more talented than their AAA or AA counterparts. Developing quality talent is really hard.
People are out here acting like DEI initiatives in highly specialized industries are about crowding out qualified white dudes ("we will just pluck another pilot off the pilot tree"). That might be true for unskilled labor, but in most places, it is about finding a way to get access to talent that passes you over. You lose the most talent because people don't even consider training for your job. That's part of the push for training women in STEM fields. For MLB, it is why they had a pushed about 10 years ago to build urban youth academies -- the clubs noticed that many of these children were focused on basketball and would not even consider developing baseball skills (to the detriment of the sport). This probably also motivates diversity recruiting in the aviation industry.
For the most part, white people hire white people. People tend to hire those who are culturally alike and mostly associate with, merit be damned. Therefore, in order for Black people to be represented, you have to want to hire us. Merit doesn't always cut it
Just wondering, are "your" coworkers good at their job?
One has to be qualified to be a commercial pilot. The standard is the standard
I find it interesting that many of these white readers have automatically become experts on DEI. Their racism is showing. DEI has nothing to do with lowering standards, it makes sure that those who do meet the standard are given equal consideration and not EXCLUDED because of race. That's pretty simple. For you to listen to other folks tell you giving a person consideration who was denied before lowers standards makes you the racist fool...
I find it interesting that many of these white readers have automatically become experts on DEI. Their racism is showing. DEI has nothing to do with lowering standards, it makes sure that those who do meet the standard are given equal consideration and not EXCLUDED because of race. That's pretty simple. For you to listen to other folks tell you giving a person consideration who was denied before lowers standards makes you the racist fool you are. Your ignorance is showing and I'm sure you scream 14 88 everyime you get a chance.
THIS.
As a white, cis man who centers equity and anti-racism in my professional work and personal life, I still always remind myself to stay humble, check my biases, and lean into the discomfort that I will never be able to empathize with the lived experiences of BIPoC in America because I am not BIPoC in America. Thus, I trust BIPoC when they tell me what their lived experiences are - they are the...
THIS.
As a white, cis man who centers equity and anti-racism in my professional work and personal life, I still always remind myself to stay humble, check my biases, and lean into the discomfort that I will never be able to empathize with the lived experiences of BIPoC in America because I am not BIPoC in America. Thus, I trust BIPoC when they tell me what their lived experiences are - they are the experts on it, not me, no matter how much anti-racism work I do on myself or trainings I do with other white folks interested in the work of anti-racism. The long and the short of it is this: white folks have to WANT to believe BIPoC and have to WANT to believe the system is rigged. But most do not want to, and will never - it is just too uncomfortable for them, even in the face of historical, economic, educational, social, and psychological research and fact. And that's the silliest part of it all: it makes us uncomfortable - not unsafe, not in danger, not in mortal peril - and yet so many love to call others the snowflakes...
I refuse to be gas lit, told to check my privilege or made to feel guilty for what cant control who my parents were and my sex , saying otherwise is racist sexist & bigoted
"DEI has nothing to do with lowering standards, it makes sure that those who do meet the standard are given equal consideration and not EXCLUDED because of race."
If they meet the standard, they should be hired; however, oftentimes when DEI policies are used in hiring people, better candidates are skipped over for others.
Eskimo gives a good example, if the standard is a degree in a certain area, graduating with a 2.0 means you...
"DEI has nothing to do with lowering standards, it makes sure that those who do meet the standard are given equal consideration and not EXCLUDED because of race."
If they meet the standard, they should be hired; however, oftentimes when DEI policies are used in hiring people, better candidates are skipped over for others.
Eskimo gives a good example, if the standard is a degree in a certain area, graduating with a 2.0 means you meet the standard, but you should not be picked over a candidate graduating with a 4.0 because you are a minority.
Interesting thought and commentary other than to say that the private sector typically follows directives by the government. The aviation sector is not composed just of pilots.
If there is a discussion about DEI - which may or may not be valid - it should include all sectors of the aviation community.
Pilots do not work in isolation.
The author admits, the training academy does not seek to admit the best candidates. It seeks to admit diverse candidates.
A simple pretest and resume scoring would sort out the best candidates. But that would not serve DEI.
In a merit system, you attempt to hire the best. In a DEI system, you seek to set an arbitrary standard, and hire diverse candidates above that standard. Often leaving the best behind.
DEI destroys any system...
The author admits, the training academy does not seek to admit the best candidates. It seeks to admit diverse candidates.
A simple pretest and resume scoring would sort out the best candidates. But that would not serve DEI.
In a merit system, you attempt to hire the best. In a DEI system, you seek to set an arbitrary standard, and hire diverse candidates above that standard. Often leaving the best behind.
DEI destroys any system it invades, as we are seeing, by avoiding the best candidates if they aren't in a favored category.
Two airlines. One seeks to select the best. One seeks to select diverse candidates above a standard. How will they perform?
Sam. It's easy to see you're not smart.
An ad hominem attack equals surrender, as the attack cannot counter the argument.`
@Sam: tell us you didn't read the article or know how pilot hiring works without telling us you didn't read the article or know how pilot hiring works.
Check out Embry-Riddle’s DEI nonsense recruitment. You can tell they’ve very recently scrubbed most of it, but going back a couple years they were (and likely still are) gender and race obsessed in their admissions process. This is no different than your United comments. I’m glad we’ve learned as a nation to move on, and hopefully the pendulum won’t swing back ever again.
@ Sel, D. -- So Embry-Riddle has a *really* high acceptance rate. I suspect the company is trying to reach out to minorities to increase its pool of potential people who may apply to join. Did I miss something, or are white men not being admitted to Embry Riddle anymore?
The reality is that if you have the money to spend on flight training, it's really easy to be accepted somewhere. So I'm not sure...
@ Sel, D. -- So Embry-Riddle has a *really* high acceptance rate. I suspect the company is trying to reach out to minorities to increase its pool of potential people who may apply to join. Did I miss something, or are white men not being admitted to Embry Riddle anymore?
The reality is that if you have the money to spend on flight training, it's really easy to be accepted somewhere. So I'm not sure what you're trying to get at? That white men can't train to be pilots anymore, or...?
Lucky, I’ll give you credit for being as unbiased as you can be. Don’t you think airlines should at least cut the public-facing DEI nonsense, or at very least with pilots? Have you not seen Endeavor’s TikTok’s with “unmanned” crews” aka all-female crews? If it turns out this flight was one of those, it’s not going to be a good look. While I don’t think DEI has anything to do with this, I can see...
Lucky, I’ll give you credit for being as unbiased as you can be. Don’t you think airlines should at least cut the public-facing DEI nonsense, or at very least with pilots? Have you not seen Endeavor’s TikTok’s with “unmanned” crews” aka all-female crews? If it turns out this flight was one of those, it’s not going to be a good look. While I don’t think DEI has anything to do with this, I can see how it could be easy for someone to draw that conclusion, just how other’s have falsely blamed Trump for the Canada incident.
Also, assuming if non-fatal with no injuries, this Delta mishap would have been much more comical if it was an ANA A380.
@ Sel, D. -- I'm curious, where do you draw the line as to what you consider to be DEI nonsense in terms of what airlines promote and market? When an airline has a story about an all-male crew (as Finnair recently did), do you think that's wrong? What about a story about a father and son pilot duo working a flight together? What about a story about a mother and daughter pilot duo working...
@ Sel, D. -- I'm curious, where do you draw the line as to what you consider to be DEI nonsense in terms of what airlines promote and market? When an airline has a story about an all-male crew (as Finnair recently did), do you think that's wrong? What about a story about a father and son pilot duo working a flight together? What about a story about a mother and daughter pilot duo working a flight together?
I don't read too much into those things, because I just think they're supposed to be cute stories that make people smile, and I have bigger things to worry about. Aren't we supposed to be against being snowflakes, or something?
Lol. I *always* consider TikToks authored by someone who desperately wants engagement to be totally authoritative. /s
"Its all the fault of DEI...!" energised the White male vote. It has no basis is fact and I doubt many Republican senators believe it either. It was a just rally-cry for Trump to collect millions of MAGA votes, be President a second term and make some proper money this time around.
I wish some news outlets would call him on it instead too, fawning in front of his word-salad press conferences 4 times a week.
The article still doesn't address certain issues such as
1. What are the admission criteria for the academy?
2. How relevant are these admission criteria?
3. What standards are there to pass the academy?
4. How relevant are these standards to pass?
5. Are there pilots with more potential that are being passeð up by #1 and #3.
Hire the right person for the right job and forget all the "personal experience" crap. Who you are sexually attracted to or your skin color have zero to do with being able to pilot a plane in a very difficult situation.
Isn't that what Ben is saying is happening though? That, end of the day, to be a pilot you have to reach the required standard - no ifs, no buts.
There’s a difference between only recruiting the top 5% and then meeting the standards vs the top 20% and then meeting the standards.
The medical field is a great example. It’s much tougher to get into med school than to pass. Same thing happening in that field as well.
Did you not read the article, Sel? Ben's point is that airlines have to take the top 100% (or maybe only slightly less) because of the pilot shortage. And when that's the case, you aren't argue that "DEI" is causing lower-ranked candidates to get jobs. If pilot "quality" has gone down (and this a big IF), it has nothing to do with DEI.
Thanks Ben!
It is one thing to ask whether DEI policies are affecting air transportation safety. It is another thing to say that DEI policies are in fact affecting air transportation safety. In either case, gather evidence. Does the record find a statistically significant higher incident rate among purported DEI hires? As others have commented, given the high certification standards, I sense no higher incident rate will be found. But, some won't want to hear that.
PS - It would be necessary to differentiate whether a non-white hire was based on merit or based on DEI policies. Thus, my use of "purported."
Just think about what you are saying - Multiple multibillion dollar companies hire under-qualified non-white men to operate multimillion dollar equipments with hundreds of lives at stake.
People have every right to be stupid, but I’d think they’d be more diligent about advertising their stupidity to the whole world. But then, if they were, they wouldn’t be stupid to begin with.
♂️ @jack I misunderstood your original comment. Sorry
It is useless to ask "Does the record find a statistically significant higher incident rate among purported DEI hires?" What you want to know is "Does the record find a statistically significant higher incident rate among ACTUAL DEI hires?" That's a much harder question to answer because as Ben points out, *there are no DEI pilot hires*.
I'm going to drop the truth bomb here - the entire conversation around DEI is being gassed by a superPAC led by Stephen Miller. Stephen Miller, who was a D student and is in no way competent both in college and in serving the first Trump administration. This is the same dullard who spray painted hair before going on TV. The Trump administration going after DEI is a distraction from their own obvious incompetence and...
I'm going to drop the truth bomb here - the entire conversation around DEI is being gassed by a superPAC led by Stephen Miller. Stephen Miller, who was a D student and is in no way competent both in college and in serving the first Trump administration. This is the same dullard who spray painted hair before going on TV. The Trump administration going after DEI is a distraction from their own obvious incompetence and mismanagement, the same way they mismanaged COVID-19. Anyone who says differently is either wrong or a liar.
One thing I find frustrating about this topic is the way that some people draw a distinction between "meritocratic employment practices" and "DEI employment practices." As you and many others have stated, DEI policies do absolutely nothing to lower standards. Instead, they produce a more diverse workforce of qualified employees.
To flip this around, imagine a firm that uses hiring practices that inadvertently disproportionately excludes qualified minority candidates and disproportionately overhires qualified nonminority candidates. Such...
One thing I find frustrating about this topic is the way that some people draw a distinction between "meritocratic employment practices" and "DEI employment practices." As you and many others have stated, DEI policies do absolutely nothing to lower standards. Instead, they produce a more diverse workforce of qualified employees.
To flip this around, imagine a firm that uses hiring practices that inadvertently disproportionately excludes qualified minority candidates and disproportionately overhires qualified nonminority candidates. Such a firm has their thumb on the scale for a certain category of employee identities and cannot honestly be said to be operating in a purely meritocratic fashion. Yet the anti-DEI crowd never weeps and wails about this particular phenomenon.
Because anti-DEI argument has nothing to do with merit. It is absolutely about entitlement of (conservative) white men. They don’t think they ought to compete with anyone but other white men.
This is Ole’s touch grass moment.
"Because anti-DEI argument has nothing to do with merit. It is absolutely about entitlement of (conservative) white men. They don’t think they ought to compete with anyone but other white men."
The anti-DEI argument has everything to do with merit. Race should NOT play a role in hiring, hiring should be based on merit.
If the firm is this racist, what makes you think a minority would apply to such a company? And even if they were accepted, I'm sure they would quit on their own volition if the culture was so racist.
What this firm needs is not "DEI" but to end their racist hiring practices and base hiring on merit only.
I really like argument but i kept wondering, do you have data to support it? For example, is there any study or statistics that show that many senior pilots retired and never came back during the covid and that the average age of cockpit before and after covid? And maybe demographics of newly hired pilots before and after covid?
https://flightlogger.net/2021/03/26/study-early-retirements/
Just one of the consultant groups that did this analysis on early retirements from the oandemic. The airlines also covered the issue repeatedly in investor calls, which I believe are public.
I can't find an equivalent study on pilot age, but I imagine the more important number is flight hours anyways. You could be 30 and flying for 10 years or 30 and just out of the flight program. Still, logic would say that...
https://flightlogger.net/2021/03/26/study-early-retirements/
Just one of the consultant groups that did this analysis on early retirements from the oandemic. The airlines also covered the issue repeatedly in investor calls, which I believe are public.
I can't find an equivalent study on pilot age, but I imagine the more important number is flight hours anyways. You could be 30 and flying for 10 years or 30 and just out of the flight program. Still, logic would say that if many pilots took early retirement they'd have to be replaced by pilots with less experience, and this average total flight time (and probably age to some extent) would go down
@Ben good article, nicely written. I commend your effort to try to educate the uninformed. However, it’s futile. These people are in a cult and have lost all common sense. One if my orthodontist friend says “why do people focus on what he says instead of what he does”. Another, high school graduate friend says, if he had raped, he wouldn’t have become a president.
Educating them is like trying to educate a wildebeest -...
@Ben good article, nicely written. I commend your effort to try to educate the uninformed. However, it’s futile. These people are in a cult and have lost all common sense. One if my orthodontist friend says “why do people focus on what he says instead of what he does”. Another, high school graduate friend says, if he had raped, he wouldn’t have become a president.
Educating them is like trying to educate a wildebeest - https://youtu.be/JMJXvsCLu6s?si=5YR18z0sUj8tUC9c.
Exactly right Ben. The chances of an airline hiring a bad pilot just because of their ethnicity background are zero. Think of the potential lawsuits. The last crash I can recall involving a pilot who had challenges was Colgan Air in 2009 and that prompted all sorts of regulatory changes.
I would like to highlight one area where you have seen DEI hiring from pilots which some that are critical to DEI are referencing which doesn't impact this specific situation but was problematic.
Regional airlines have lower wages and there are some which struggled with hiring and hired anyone they could. The airline that crashed was a regional.
Where you saw DEI hiring was at the majors. The actual mainline airline, united, delta, American could...
I would like to highlight one area where you have seen DEI hiring from pilots which some that are critical to DEI are referencing which doesn't impact this specific situation but was problematic.
Regional airlines have lower wages and there are some which struggled with hiring and hired anyone they could. The airline that crashed was a regional.
Where you saw DEI hiring was at the majors. The actual mainline airline, united, delta, American could hire pilots out of the regional carriers and would have their choice on who they gave priority to. Military experience has priority due to the rigor of military flight training. Second to military training, airlines prioritized using DEI metrics over merit. Setting race quotas is problematic, but not a factor for the airline operating this flight.
There are no such things as race quotas, there are no such things as race quotas, say it with me one more time, there are no such things as race quotas. The airlines are not setting aside pilot quotas based on race. The airlines are not saying x% of pilots have to be black/female. That's a race quota. Sheesh you people are dense. DEI is only giving opportunities for training to be a pilot. If...
There are no such things as race quotas, there are no such things as race quotas, say it with me one more time, there are no such things as race quotas. The airlines are not setting aside pilot quotas based on race. The airlines are not saying x% of pilots have to be black/female. That's a race quota. Sheesh you people are dense. DEI is only giving opportunities for training to be a pilot. If you don't pass the rigorous training to be a pilot, they won't hire you to be a pilot. Period. I really think some of you think they are picking random black people off the street and letting them be pilots of multi-million dollar aircrafts at billion dollar companies.
Having been involved at a US4 major airline hiring, yes. There absolutely have been pure race and female quotas in the last four years.
I have no issues with qualified pilots either, but there absolutely have been unpublicized quotas for this said under the table but measured at the C suite level in very small meetings.
It was a tad strange to go to a pilot hiring event and see every US4 recruiting team...
Having been involved at a US4 major airline hiring, yes. There absolutely have been pure race and female quotas in the last four years.
I have no issues with qualified pilots either, but there absolutely have been unpublicized quotas for this said under the table but measured at the C suite level in very small meetings.
It was a tad strange to go to a pilot hiring event and see every US4 recruiting team swarm the black female or black man and practically push brochures in their hands and personal cards that other pilots would often not receive.
DEI has a place in the pure form it was intended to expand the pie. But, in practice at many places, it was absolutely done on a quota basis with bonuses for some based on the metric entirely.
Sounds like a slam dunk lawsuit, Geneva. I look forward to the incipient court filings based on these very real quotas you describe.
Laugh all you want. Some people were actually involved in pilot hiring and saw what actually happened vs the pure idyllic form often described
No, I genuinely believe you. Tell me more about how these racial hiring quotas were implemented. You say these quotas were discussed under the table in very small C-level meetings. Does this mean that the CFO, COO, CIO, and CIO were the ones going out to these job fairs and pressing the brochures into minority candidates' hands? Or were the quotas carried out by lower-level employees, and thus the conspiracy ran far deeper than you...
No, I genuinely believe you. Tell me more about how these racial hiring quotas were implemented. You say these quotas were discussed under the table in very small C-level meetings. Does this mean that the CFO, COO, CIO, and CIO were the ones going out to these job fairs and pressing the brochures into minority candidates' hands? Or were the quotas carried out by lower-level employees, and thus the conspiracy ran far deeper than you initially led us to believe?
Help me make it all add up, Geneva!
As you might imagine, a public comment section isn't the place to elaborate. Simply sharing my personal experience like others.
I'm not against DEI generally, just how I often saw it implemented. It absolutely makes sense to expand a recruiting pool to qualified applicants, but it just wasn't I saw in practice, at times.
The purported personal experience you're describing doesn't make sense, which is why I'm pressing you on it.
Was the quota only known to a very small group of executives as you initially claimed? If so, how could they possibly implement it at such a large organization?
Was the quota actually known to a much wider group of people, which is what would necessarily need to occur for the quota to actually be implemented? If so,...
The purported personal experience you're describing doesn't make sense, which is why I'm pressing you on it.
Was the quota only known to a very small group of executives as you initially claimed? If so, how could they possibly implement it at such a large organization?
Was the quota actually known to a much wider group of people, which is what would necessarily need to occur for the quota to actually be implemented? If so, why would you claim otherwise, and why hasn't anyone revealed more concrete evidence of this?
Also, Geneva, your argument - which is clearly anecdotal and not based on you BEING AT these meetings - fails to answer the primary question: Were ANY standards lowered to hire pilots that were not white males? Just because there was a concerted effort to attract Black or female candidates DOES NOT mean that any standards were modified/lowered to pass them. These are lies of commission are glaring without any sort of documentation to show...
Also, Geneva, your argument - which is clearly anecdotal and not based on you BEING AT these meetings - fails to answer the primary question: Were ANY standards lowered to hire pilots that were not white males? Just because there was a concerted effort to attract Black or female candidates DOES NOT mean that any standards were modified/lowered to pass them. These are lies of commission are glaring without any sort of documentation to show that quotas = lowered standards.
@DCAWABN
I'd encourage you to be open to what was happening vs what your idyllic political persuasion compels you to type absent input of something you've clearly never been involved with absent a CNN or MSNBC special.
Attacking me and my personal experience (that you seem to think you know about based on a comment section) based on the limited information I care to share on a public website does nothing to expand...
@DCAWABN
I'd encourage you to be open to what was happening vs what your idyllic political persuasion compels you to type absent input of something you've clearly never been involved with absent a CNN or MSNBC special.
Attacking me and my personal experience (that you seem to think you know about based on a comment section) based on the limited information I care to share on a public website does nothing to expand your brain and reality of what was actually happening at SOME places, obviously not all. But to say "there were no race quotas" as another writer wrote just isn't true. There absolutely were with bonuses tied to it at major airlines.
DEI has a place but attacking someone who was actually at these hiring events and very aware of these meetings is more than closed-minded.
I'm not stephen miller. lol. I think DEI is useful. I'm simply mentioning that DEI has never been the idyllic thing it was supposed to be.
There's no reason to fly off the handle at those with personal experience that saw the reality of DEI in a different way. It's a lightning rod issue due to the extreme politicization of the topic by the administration but that doesn't change that some companies absolutely did apply it in questionable ways.
DCAWABN, you're part of the problem just as the administration is by blindly ignoring what is good and bad about DEI AND how it was applied in reality that makes some question it.
If you mean, "There are no race quotas used in hiring airline pilots," then that's what you should say.
I don't think that you should claim that "there are no such things as race quotas" unless you mean that no employer at all uses race quotas for any job at all.
Grow up Ben. You’re not the thought police.
Racist say what?
Cheer up snowflake.
Yep, free speech is of course thought policing if it was not censored by the people that now what others should think!
How in any way is he being the "thought police"? Unless you're keen for wild inaccuracies to go unchallenged?
Why do you even have to write this stuff up?
There's plenty of evidence out there showing that workgroups that are *not* diverse do worse as they succumb to group think, and that a qualified diverse workgroup will always perform better than one that is homogeneous. It's no accident that AI is being invented by highly diverse group of people, from all different backgrounds, sexual orientations (Altman is gay and married to a guy) and national origin.
Because many people are currently blaming DEI for recent accidents?
Also diversity of ideas is good for innovation, diversity of race and sexuality is completely irrelevant.
"Also diversity of ideas is good for innovation, diversity of race and sexuality is completely irrelevant."
Wrong. They're not divorceable like that. What you said is just the flipped coin of the politicians who think race/gender/sexuality are the ONLY forms of diversity, and never give any thought to diversity of ideas.
But honestly, where the heck do you think a big portion of diversity-of-ideas springs from??
I agree that the recent incidents have as little to do with DEI as they do with some theories about climate. Where I can disagree with your good opinion on this topic is with United Aviate. United Aviate uses DEI and promotes how it hopes to have a certain percentage of minority cadets, who historically might not have had the opportunity to become pilots. They are discriminating on race or gender when they do this....
I agree that the recent incidents have as little to do with DEI as they do with some theories about climate. Where I can disagree with your good opinion on this topic is with United Aviate. United Aviate uses DEI and promotes how it hopes to have a certain percentage of minority cadets, who historically might not have had the opportunity to become pilots. They are discriminating on race or gender when they do this. There are plenty of white, black, male, female, or people across all lines who might not have the opportunity to become pilots due to income or other situations. Why should they exclude men or white men or...?
I know it’s a fine line in a situation where you are recruiting for limited slots - but saying you are trying to find more female or minority pilots isn’t “excluding” white male pilots. Clearly individuals from all of these groups are welcome to try to become pilots.
Coming from Europe I think it’s a statement in itself that you see the need to explain such basic facts to your readers and to so carefully select your words.
It’s really mind blowing how the perceived reality is shifting in the US…
I think it is refreshing to see an objective take on the topic. In both the US and Europe there is otherwise so much bias as everyone is on one side of the discussion and says the other side are Nazis. Also for me it was not clear how DEI works in the aviation industry so it was quite interesting to dive into that topic.
sorry to say this but EU is far behind when it comes to DEI except promoting females. The whole Europe does not even recognize the race issue, oh rather the race/immigration is a hassle for EU...
This gets back to some of the original justifications of both DEI and immigration. There are almost 350 million Americans, and 8 billion people globally. America and the world is getting richer - as people get richer, they demand more stuff, including things like air travel, medical care, professional services, etc. In the case of pilots, we need more of them given more demand for air travel and the retirement you described. Trying to find...
This gets back to some of the original justifications of both DEI and immigration. There are almost 350 million Americans, and 8 billion people globally. America and the world is getting richer - as people get richer, they demand more stuff, including things like air travel, medical care, professional services, etc. In the case of pilots, we need more of them given more demand for air travel and the retirement you described. Trying to find pilots in pools of the population where they have been underrepresented just makes sense in this situation. Same thing with say doctors - which is why the US has been welcoming immigrant doctors to rural areas for decades.
I would just like to point out that there are NO 20s wide body CAs at UAL.
I am 45 and probably 1 year shy of holding 777 in SFO the most Junior WB base.
2006 hire.
@ J.R -- Interesting insights on United, thanks, and hope you get the promotion soon! Just curious, does the no CAs in their 20s apply to the 757/767 as well (obviously former isn't a wide body)? For what it's worth, I know of multiple Delta captains in their 20s who fly those two jets.
Ben.
We really don’t count 757/767 fleet as wide body. Mid body perhaps..
But I see where you are coming from.
We have a few ~5 year year 756 CAs in SFO & EWR. So you got the possibility of a sub 30 in there.
Pilot requirements aside, this is the case pretty much across the travel/transportation industry. It just isn’t possible to hire people fast enough regardless of their physical attributes. Then many times a quality candidate will fail the drug test.
Thanks for presenting the facts as they are, Ben.