In June 2025, we saw an Air India Boeing 787-8 crash shortly after takeoff from Ahmedabad (AMD), killing 260 people. It was a bizarre accident, as the plane lost power to both engines shortly after takeoff, and the preliminary report suggested that fuel control switches were shut off seconds after takeoff, which suggests a chilling cause to the accident.
It has now been months since the public has received any sort of a meaningful update as to what happened, and at least publicly, it feels like the investigation is stalled. That brings us to some interesting new details about what’s happening in the background of the investigation.
In this post:
US & Indian authorities aren’t on same page about investigation
The Wall Street Journal has an interesting story about what has been going on in the background of the Air India flight AI171 crash investigation. As you’d expect, the investigation is being led by India’s Aircraft Accident Investigation Bureau (AAIB). However, the United States’ National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) is also involved in the investigation and is providing support, since the aircraft was manufactured in the United States.
We knew that there had been disagreements between the AAIB and NTSB, though we’re now learning details about just how bad they were. It would appear that investigators in the United States fear that investigators in India are trying to cover-up the cause of this accident, ignoring evidence.
As it currently stands, the NTSB reportedly believes that evidence points to the captain having shut off the engines and having made no effort to rescue the plane, with the fear being that the Indian government will seek to obstruct findings and instead blame mechanical faults with the plane. After all, in November 2025, an Indian court reportedly stated that suggesting the pilot was possibly at fault is “nasty reporting,” and “no one in India believes it was the pilot’s fault.”
According to the WSJ report, here’s what happened early in the investigation:
- The head of the AAIB is said to have told NTSB officials that they were “not a third world country” and “can do anything you all can do”
- American investigators were banned from taking photos of the wreckage, some of which was moved before they could examine it
- Indian officials wanted to analyze the black box data in the small town of Korwa, to stay away from media attention; however, the NTSB insisted that they do this in New Delhi or Washington, over concerns of terrorism in the region
- US State Department officials had to intercept NTSB investigators at the airport in Delhi, to prevent them from boarding a military flight to Korwa arranged by the Indian government, and then gave India an ultimatum about where to analyze the data, or else US support for the investigation would end
- The AAIB insisted on conducting some aspects of the investigation sequentially, greatly slowing things down, while the NTSB wanted a broader and faster review, to determine if there was an issue with the 787 that would require the plane to be grounded
It’s dismaying to see how this investigation is being handled
Ultimately the work that aircraft accident investigators do is what makes our aviation ecosystem as safe as it is. It’s incredibly important that investigations are performed impartially, and that we learn from every accident, to do everything possible to prevent a similar thing from happening in the future.
There’s no denying that the NTSB has a phenomenal track record with performing impartial investigations into accidents. Of course in this case, the NTSB is simply providing support to the AAIB, which is (understandably) leading the investigation.
The AAIB has definitely been lacking when it comes to transparency with its investigation, and what has been communicated with the public. For that matter, based on what we know, this investigation has been performed at a very slow pace.
The thing is, it increasingly feels like this is becoming political theater, more than an actual investigation, with India’s supreme court getting involved, at the request of the father of the captain and unions representing pilots.
So far, only very limited information has been shared about what was heard on the cockpit voice recorder. We know that just seconds after takeoff, the fuel cutoff switches were turned off, one after the other, with a gap of just one second. The first officer was heard asking the captain why he cut off the engines, to which the captain responded that he didn’t do so. The first officer tried to pull up on the nose, while the captain didn’t.
On the Indian side, the claim seems to be that there was some sort of an unheard of mechanical issue that caused fuel to be shut off without the pilots manually doing it. One detail that hasn’t been released — which seems like it would be pretty conclusive — is if the sound of the fuel cutoff switches being moved was heard on the cockpit voice recorder. Moving the switches makes quite a loud noise, and this would certainly have been heard on the cockpit voice recorder.
If the sound of the switches moving was heard, then I don’t understand how anyone can claim that it wasn’t one of the pilots who shut off the engines. If it wasn’t heard, then that’s a major detail that would exonerate the pilots.
Bottom line
The investigation into the crash of Air India flight AI171 has certainly left the public confused, given the lack of updates, plus the involvement of Indian courts in deciding what investigators can and can’t say.
A new report suggests that there have been quite some tensions between US and Indian authorities. According to the report, US investigators seem confident that the captain intentionally sabotaged the aircraft, while Indian investigators believe it was something else.
It’s really unfortunate to see the direction this investigation is taking. I hope this investigation doesn’t end up taking the same direction as EgyptAir 990…
What do you make of the investigation of the crash of AI171?
787 first flew commercially in 2011
This is the fist time both fuel control switches were turned off on takeoff.
Cockpit voice recorder asks "who turned off the fuel"?
In this anti-Boeing climate it appears that Air India is trying to deflect the financial responsibility in the hopes that anti-Boeing BIAS will let them off the hook.
I think that statistically the evidence is clear.
Close the inquiry with Air India and not Boeing at fault.
Shocked to see you engaged in this racism, Ben. Jumping on the train to dehumanize those from the global south.
This is exactly like Union Carbide trying to cover it’s back in 1984. 1 humble pilot from a developing country vs PR, legal, and lobbying arms of a giant corp.
American aviation is compromized by boeing and it’s lobbyists who made the MAX airworthy on paper.
Indian Philosophy: If Indians pay, it will be in Rupees and maybe a Few Lakh(1000K) If US pays, It will be in the millions of Dollars.
So,let's just make the Americans pay and we can all get Rich, even the Pilot's Family that crashed the plane on purpose. Remember Judges can be Bought easily in India.
A singled person has commented twenty times on this comments section. Wow.
To all astroturfing Indians in here and elsewhere: Do you all really expect us to forgive & forget all because you try and find little sentence and word technicalities; vs when your country is literally run like a criminal enterprise the likes of nightmares? From police abusing abuse victims(to not say the bad words); to covering up and trying to hoodwink the entire world into thinking your pilot didn't cause a mass catastrophe, do you...
To all astroturfing Indians in here and elsewhere: Do you all really expect us to forgive & forget all because you try and find little sentence and word technicalities; vs when your country is literally run like a criminal enterprise the likes of nightmares? From police abusing abuse victims(to not say the bad words); to covering up and trying to hoodwink the entire world into thinking your pilot didn't cause a mass catastrophe, do you think we're all that stupid, gullible and foolish? Or are you all just that way and think we are also like that? Because we aren't.
I for one will NEVER visit India as long as anyone like the people who loudly defend or defer this crash & investigation are anything even close to the majority of the population.
May China take over your subcontinent, as they are at least not insulting in their hiding of pilot suicides. To be fair they still hide them but don't treat the rest of the world like idiots like you all do
It made no dollar sense for Singapore to invest in Air India as the two countries are in opposite ends of the spectrum, despite the fact that they are both in Asia. The first time I visited Singapore in summer of 94, the host said that Singapore government would never invest in any project that would not yield profits. Lee Kwan Yew insisted that if Singapore Airlines ever contemplated investing in Air India, it had...
It made no dollar sense for Singapore to invest in Air India as the two countries are in opposite ends of the spectrum, despite the fact that they are both in Asia. The first time I visited Singapore in summer of 94, the host said that Singapore government would never invest in any project that would not yield profits. Lee Kwan Yew insisted that if Singapore Airlines ever contemplated investing in Air India, it had to have influence on board of directors and the union to make the investment profitable. But he was very ambivalent about such venture. Both countries are former British colonies but their current global standings are world apart. Leadership and culture dictate their destiny. When pilots of SQ went on illegal strike, Lee gave them an ultimatum: Get back to work he would shut down SQ and rebuild it without them. Within 65 minutes, the pilot union relented.
The sub-Indian continent countries have never been on my radar to visit. East Indians are the most unpleasant people to mingle with-- that is my experience when living in Kuwait whose expat population at the time was 50% Indians. When I visited Nepal, Bhutan and Sri Lanka, no locals had positive perception toward East Indians.
None. All the travelers who I met overseas told me they experienced stomach flu in India. It did not help hearing a Rice University math professor who visited Kuwait summed up his experience in India " Walking in the restaurant is the first world country. Walking in the street is the third world dump." Of course, nothing is absolute and nobody is perfect. I tell the norm not the exception.
you are sidetracking the issues
indian passengers are the bread and butter for sq
without whom they cannot make any profits and they cannot
fill up the seats
you take singapore to nyc sector they are carrying pax
from indian ports
sq flts are filled up with pax from india from sfo apt or lax apt
even disembarking pax from sfo to sin are fromsingapore nationals
who are...
you are sidetracking the issues
indian passengers are the bread and butter for sq
without whom they cannot make any profits and they cannot
fill up the seats
you take singapore to nyc sector they are carrying pax
from indian ports
sq flts are filled up with pax from india from sfo apt or lax apt
even disembarking pax from sfo to sin are fromsingapore nationals
who are predominently indians only singapore population is small but with indias population they are able to fill up seats
Please write in English that we all can understand and read clearly not in hieroglyphics like pax, sq,apt !!
“Indian passengers are SQ’s bread and butter”? What a joker you are!
It’s EgyptAir all over again.
Egyptair TWICE: The B767 out of JFK and the A320 out of Paris, where the crash was demonstrated to be caused by the pilots smoking cigarettes in the galley, and not by terrorism as Egyptair still contends.
it is totally wrong
the smoking theory was completely disregarded and disproven by the french investigators in their 2024 report (furthermore the theory also only came from selective media reporting), they claim the fire was caused by a short circuit the oxygen mask
why the egyptians hid the details? we will certainly never know, but it could be due to political reasons, during 2016, egypt was only few years under a new dictator who would label ''terrorism'' for all...
the smoking theory was completely disregarded and disproven by the french investigators in their 2024 report (furthermore the theory also only came from selective media reporting), they claim the fire was caused by a short circuit the oxygen mask
why the egyptians hid the details? we will certainly never know, but it could be due to political reasons, during 2016, egypt was only few years under a new dictator who would label ''terrorism'' for all kinds of opposition, some egyptians i know said the egyptian investigators likely covered up the crash and blame it on terrorism to create a scare among the public, this lack of willingness by the egyptian investigators unfortunately led to the french do the homework all by themselves, and without accessing MOST of the wreckage because egypt would have jurisdiction over it, it took them 8 years to finally determine what happened.
Can anyone with a rational scientific mind provide an insight into the mindset of a country/airline/union to deny, in cases where the evidence does lead to the conclusion of pilot murder-suicide.
I can understand some idea to protect the reputation of the organisation, although denying an evident truth actually lowers the reputation of perceptive outsiders.
But most organisations recognise that a member may break the rules and be expelled (India even has the...
Can anyone with a rational scientific mind provide an insight into the mindset of a country/airline/union to deny, in cases where the evidence does lead to the conclusion of pilot murder-suicide.
I can understand some idea to protect the reputation of the organisation, although denying an evident truth actually lowers the reputation of perceptive outsiders.
But most organisations recognise that a member may break the rules and be expelled (India even has the death sentence) - why do they not see a pilot in such a case as being someone who has betrayed the organisation, and is then not protected by loyalty?
Albert, for an example of what you ask, look no further than the Boeing CH-47 debacle, Mull of Kintyre, Scotland, 1994. Follow that with the Boeing 737 MAX crashes, 2018 & 2019.
“Why do (the American public) not see (the Boeing management) in such case(s) as being someone who has betrayed the organisation, and is then protected by loyalty”?
Hypocrisy abounds herein!
Completely agree about Boeing's behaviour on 737Max being despicable.
But I have had the impression that once it was exposed, the American public did in general cast them out?
…. :-) …. and then there was the case of the door plug going ‘walk-about’, yes?
The American public might well have cast Boeing out, however, too few who post herein have done so, again, yes?
I think we should be extremely grateful to whoever it was at the AAIB (or associated body) who came up with the wording that was released after 30 days.
They managed to craft something that the deniers did allow to be published, but had enough information for those looking for truth to be fairly sure that there was nothing wrong with the aircraft.
Fairly sure, not certain - as Ben said, we need more of the evidence published.
I have enjoyed your blog for a long time and learnt a lot. Over the years as you have increased publishing of the tabloidesque stories, I have still felt by an large you have been very reasonable and seemed to have done your due diligence. However, this has to be one of your laziest post. I think it goes without saying that if the Indian government is trying to influence the probe to conceal the...
I have enjoyed your blog for a long time and learnt a lot. Over the years as you have increased publishing of the tabloidesque stories, I have still felt by an large you have been very reasonable and seemed to have done your due diligence. However, this has to be one of your laziest post. I think it goes without saying that if the Indian government is trying to influence the probe to conceal the human cause, it is diabolical and must be called out and criticized. However, the blatantly false reporting in this story is simply pathetic to see. I expected more from you.
I spent a good hour going thru both the Indian and foreign print media in trying to confirm your statement - "After all, in November 2025, an Indian supreme court judge ruled that the captain can’t be blamed for the crash, dismissing “nasty” reports that he turned off the plane’s engines.", but I couldn't corroborate this. Instead, all the reports state - the supreme court said, the AAIB prelim report does not insinuate anything against the pilot. It also said, the conclusions from the report blaming the pilot are nasty but court can't do anything about it. No where did the court say, the pilot cannot be blamed for the crash. So, do you mind sharing your sources?
In addition, if it turns out you are wrong with that statement, should I expect a retraction?
@ Ole -- I very much appreciate you reading, and I do my best to be accurate as possible (though with the volume I write, I'll admit that my content might not be as researched as someone who works on one story per week). It was widely reported in November that the court said the following:
“We are not bothered by foreign reports. Your remedy should then be before a foreign court. That is...
@ Ole -- I very much appreciate you reading, and I do my best to be accurate as possible (though with the volume I write, I'll admit that my content might not be as researched as someone who works on one story per week). It was widely reported in November that the court said the following:
“We are not bothered by foreign reports. Your remedy should then be before a foreign court. That is nasty reporting. No one in India believes it was the pilot's fault."
https://www.the-independent.com/asia/india/air-india-crash-father-supreme-court-b2860618.html
If that's wrong, then of course I'll update the story to be accurate. But is there something else I'm missing?
Why do you blame Ben for this piece?
We're about to enter 2026.
We've spent the last decade under everything propaganda, fake news, bias, echo chamber, etc.
We all know by now the purpose is to scam, rig governments, incite riots, clicks, monetize, etc.
You should be smart enough by now to not trust one the first thing you read or see.
People are taking advantage of other people who fall for the propaganda.
Is the Eskimo post above the rhetoric from the real Eskimo or the imposter who has been using the Eskimo login name?
Only Ben, can confirm who the real Eskimo is, however, Ben, remains silent …. why?
@Eskimo, I am not blaming Ben. In fact I expected more from him. When I read the article, I believed that the court did rule that even though it seemed odd. Then I went thru the comments and I came across Sean M.'s comment. He completely contradicted Ben and I didn't see any response from Ben. Normally he is good at that when called out. So, I went on internet searching for the reporting. And...
@Eskimo, I am not blaming Ben. In fact I expected more from him. When I read the article, I believed that the court did rule that even though it seemed odd. Then I went thru the comments and I came across Sean M.'s comment. He completely contradicted Ben and I didn't see any response from Ben. Normally he is good at that when called out. So, I went on internet searching for the reporting. And after what I found, I expressed my dismay at Ben's reporting. May be I was too strong in my comment, but as I said, I expect more from Ben and I was disappointed.
Just reread, Independent's report. The headline is worded to clearly inflame or antagonize the readers. It is click bait. Because that same article also has quotes from both Judges that I added in my comment. Judge clearly said (rightly or wrongly), no one in India blames your son. The headline reads no one blames pilot.
@Ben,
I suggest that both The Independent (one of the less reliable UK publications) and Indian news-sites quote rather selectively, depending on their biases (don't underestimate the enmity between Indians and Pakistanis in the UK)
There has been previous mention in comments here about deference to the elderly in Indian culture to an extent which seems odd to Westerners.
Perhaps the SC judge regarded it as appropriate to not embarrass the 91-year-old...
@Ben,
I suggest that both The Independent (one of the less reliable UK publications) and Indian news-sites quote rather selectively, depending on their biases (don't underestimate the enmity between Indians and Pakistanis in the UK)
There has been previous mention in comments here about deference to the elderly in Indian culture to an extent which seems odd to Westerners.
Perhaps the SC judge regarded it as appropriate to not embarrass the 91-year-old father of the captain.
Most of the quoted words I see seem to be deflection rather than endorsement - it is after all true that the AAIB has not (yet) blamed the captain.
No that is accurate and that is the only source where I found that. Neither AP not Reuters reported on that, neither did any of the Indian media. The issue is, that statement is missing the context. I am unable to find the transcript of what the judge(s) said. However, when "No one in India believes it was the pilot's fault is" translated to "Indian supreme court judge ruled that the captain can’t be blamed...
No that is accurate and that is the only source where I found that. Neither AP not Reuters reported on that, neither did any of the Indian media. The issue is, that statement is missing the context. I am unable to find the transcript of what the judge(s) said. However, when "No one in India believes it was the pilot's fault is" translated to "Indian supreme court judge ruled that the captain can’t be blamed for the crash", that's a big leap. For better of worse, even Indian government (at least) in the court said, the AAIB prelim report does not attempt to blame anyone and is just reporting events as they happened.
The fact is the judges did not issue any ruling. In fact they adjourned the case for 2 weeks.
Here's what an Indian newspaper reported - "It's extremely unfortunate that this crash took place, but father should not carry this burden that your son is being blamed...no body can blame him for anything" Justice Kant said. Justice Bagchi said, there was no insinuation against the pilot in the prelim report.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/125294543.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst
Then another one reported - Justice Bagchi said, "The AAIB inquiry is not for apportioning blame on anyone. It is only to clarify the cause so that the same does not happen again." https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/no-blame-attributed-to-anyone-centre-to-court-on-air-india-crash-9629123
It seems, every newspaper/site that reported on the case, reported based on their inherent bias or made an editorial decision as to what gets reported amongst everything the two judges said. No one source has given a clear picture of everything two judges said.
@ Ole -- You're right, I could have phrased that better, and I apologize. I updated that to now state "after all, in November 2025, an Indian court reportedly stated that suggesting the pilot was possibly at fault is 'nasty reporting,' and 'no one in India believes it was the pilot's fault.'"
If you Google "nasty" and "AI171," you'll see dozens and dozens of stories referencing that exact quote, including many Indian media outlets. Perhaps...
@ Ole -- You're right, I could have phrased that better, and I apologize. I updated that to now state "after all, in November 2025, an Indian court reportedly stated that suggesting the pilot was possibly at fault is 'nasty reporting,' and 'no one in India believes it was the pilot's fault.'"
If you Google "nasty" and "AI171," you'll see dozens and dozens of stories referencing that exact quote, including many Indian media outlets. Perhaps it's possible that was completely made up, but that's what I was going off of.
@Ben thanks Ben.
I googled, Indian court Air India crash. I think would have been nice if at least 1 media outlet would have taken effort to publish the full transcript. I didn't pay any attention when the reporting came out, but almost all blogs and most news sites incorrectly reported.
I have to wonder how much Singapore is sweating this since they foolishly are involved as part of the Air India ownership group.
Where is Campbell Wilson (NZ CEO of Air India)?
He should set a deadline for the AAIB to (be allowed to) publish a proper clear report.
If not, he should resign and state the reason for his resignation.
The threat might be enough to get the truth out.
Being a businessman of integrity can mean accepting personal disadvantage for the public good.
(Yes, I have resigned from a company on principle and lost out financially as a result)
This is clearly pilot suicide. The voice recording is clear.
I suggest that the more appropriate term is murder-suicide.
Would you suggest we use the term murder-peacekeeper for other current international conflicts?
There are certainly cases where soldiers commit murder; distinct from when they kill the enemy, and from ones where they kill by accident their own comrades, or innocent bystanders.
Which conflict are you thinking of?
Got to love undeveloped and developing countries taking for granted the safe technology the West has developed, while shitting all over the policies which allowed it to develop into the safe technology it is today, just so they can attempt (and fail) to preserve their fragile egos.
I'd be careful to make such a grand and silly conclusion like that. It's not development level, or East v. West, etc. If we're going off sheer number of commercial aviation incidents in the modern era, the US leads that tally with over 800+ fatal incidents. Then Russia/USSR.
Uh... the West doesn't even use the safe technology the West has developed, i.e. automation.
And does that take into account that the US has probably also flown far more commercial aviation flights than any other country? And that developing nations are benefiting from early commercial aviation safety lessons learned?
There are plenty of reasons why a country might have more incidents, for example volume of flights and overworked ATC controllers. That doesn’t mean much of the life saving improvements in aviation history didn’t come from cooperation and honesty, rather than trying to obfuscate in a silly attempt to save face.
We all know what happened.......India looks to be taking a page out of the Chinese playbook after MU5735.
Ah, yeah, about MU5735: On 19 May 2025, the CAAC said that it decided not to release an annual interim investigation report to the public because releasing the report might "endanger national security and societal stability"... sounds like a pilot suicide, or an 'oopsie, we shot down our own aircraft' (Putin's method).
@1990
Although to be strictly accurate, the one time by Putin on a Russian aircraft was deliberate, rather than an oopsie! (and probably a bomb rather than shooting down)
Going back to 1980, oopsies have been by Russia (Azerbaijan Airlines 8243 and Malaysia Airlines 17) , Iran (Ukraine Airlines 752), Ukraine (in a joint operation with Russia!) (Siberia Airlines 1812), USA (Iran Air 655), Soviet Union (Korean Air Lines 007) and Unknown (France?)...
@1990
Although to be strictly accurate, the one time by Putin on a Russian aircraft was deliberate, rather than an oopsie! (and probably a bomb rather than shooting down)
Going back to 1980, oopsies have been by Russia (Azerbaijan Airlines 8243 and Malaysia Airlines 17) , Iran (Ukraine Airlines 752), Ukraine (in a joint operation with Russia!) (Siberia Airlines 1812), USA (Iran Air 655), Soviet Union (Korean Air Lines 007) and Unknown (France?) (Itavia 870)
ISTR all perpetrators denied initially, with the Ukrainians and Iranians being the quickest to confess.
How do we know that?
lots of very clearly indian astroturfing commenters in here spreading nonsense. this was clearly a pilot murder/suicide. there is no other rational explanation. same thing as egyptair 990 - the country just doesn't want to accept that kind of crime for nationalist reasons. insane.
…. and you proof is Cam?
On EgyptAir 990, the NTSB concluded that the probable cause of the crash was the relief first officer's actions, but it did not determine the reason for those actions; yet, the local authority, ECAA report concluded that "the Relief First Officer did not deliberately dive the airplane into the ocean" and that mechanical failure was "a plausible and likely cause of the accident." So, maybe Cam is onto something, but we don't know for sure.
there is no other possible proximate cause other than intentional human manipulation. pretending like there is a realistic other option is about as insane as pro-boeing conspiracy theorists saying the 737 max crashes were planned by foreign governments to discredit the US. it's just face saving, and it's pathetic.
I don't understand with people are linking the 737 Max failures to the NTSB. It was the FAA that was lax with its oversight of Boeing, not the NTSB. The NTSB comes into play only after an aircraft accident occurs where the NTSB has either primary or secondary jurisdiction. I suggest before making this statement, go read the NTSB reports on both the Lion Air and Ethiopian accidents. The NTSB didn't sugar coat anything.
I'm...
I don't understand with people are linking the 737 Max failures to the NTSB. It was the FAA that was lax with its oversight of Boeing, not the NTSB. The NTSB comes into play only after an aircraft accident occurs where the NTSB has either primary or secondary jurisdiction. I suggest before making this statement, go read the NTSB reports on both the Lion Air and Ethiopian accidents. The NTSB didn't sugar coat anything.
I'm not saying the NTSB is perfect, but the FAA and NTSB are two different entities. Furthermore, the NTSB is an independent agency of the Federal Government outside the FAA.
Who's upset with NTSB? They're consummate professionals and heroes for what they do and deal with, each and every time. And, if anyone is upset about Max incidents, we're blaming Boeing, not even the FAA, and certainly not the NTSB.
One of the reasons that the Boeing reaction to the 737 Max crashes was such a heinous sin was that it muddies the waters on future cases where one or both of the pilots *are* at fault.
I traveled to well over 50 countries and I am really glad that I could avoid traveling to India so far.
Scio, seriously now, you are missing out on one fantastic world experience by failing to include India in your list of countries to visit.
A visit to India will enliven the senses of even the most biased of people.
It would be very interesting to read your list of countries which you have visited?
No, He isn't.
Ok Pete, give us all the benefit of your knowledge about travel in India.
Is it as extensive as the content of your post?
It would also be interesting to know which country you call home?
Begone pajeet.
Racist slurs does nothing for your credibility Smithee.
Scio_nescio, what a silly 'hot take' to have.
I presume you'll share that view with every country that has an aviation incident?
Based on data for fatal civil airline accidents from 1945 to present, the country with the highest number of incidents is the United States, with about 800+ accidents; then Russia/USSR (500+), Brazil (170+), Canada (170+), Colombia (170+), etc.
Just seems like you already 'hate' India/Indians for no good reason.
1990, now correlate that data with number of aircraft, flights, and miles flown. 1945 is a pretty convenient timeframe given that the country that had the most upward mobility and pure technological improvement in that era was the US. There was some big event that happened around that time. I'd say the Russia number is amazingly high given the timeframe and state of that country at the end of the 40s.
A better data point would include the number of total flights in those same countries from 1945 until now? Countries that ramped up civil aviation recently would also benefit from lessons learned by civil aviation pioneers.
That's not great. We just want the truth. Was it pilot suicide? Is it an engine/fuel switch issue?
Boeing and GE (also an American company and supplier of the engines) knew exactly what happened within minutes of the accident since data from the aircraft was being transmitted whether AI chose to receive it or not.
Boeing was not spotless but that doesn't mean that valid concerns do not exist w/ this investigation as the WSJ and Ben have noted.
The real question is what happens long-term if the cause of this...
Boeing and GE (also an American company and supplier of the engines) knew exactly what happened within minutes of the accident since data from the aircraft was being transmitted whether AI chose to receive it or not.
Boeing was not spotless but that doesn't mean that valid concerns do not exist w/ this investigation as the WSJ and Ben have noted.
The real question is what happens long-term if the cause of this accident is not accurately determined - and I strongly suspect that little will happen. Aviation in India will still grow by huge amounts, AI will be burdened by a culture of safety doubt that they probably will overcome in time, and other airlines in India as well as foreign airlines will benefit (or not be as impacted by AI's growth) because of the doubts.
I suspect that India has already calculated the cost of their approach over the one the US is pushing and have decided they can make their approach work w/o admitting that a human factors incident occurred that likely could not have been foreseen let alone prevented even in other cultures.
India's corrupt; Boeing's corrupt; perhaps, the problem is corruption, Tim.
humanity is flawed, 1990.
but that doesn't mean that we accept that anyone that is flawed can be right even if they were wrong before.
and you have to look at cases where investigations showed that pilots intentionally involved in accidents and those airlines overcame that.
As "wrong" as it is in our western eyes for all of the truth not to be known, lessons were learned both in India and around the world.
I'm reminded of the quote from the HBO series Chernobyl: "What is the cost of lies? It's not that we'll mistake them for the truth. The real danger is that if we hear enough lies, then we no longer recognize the truth at all."
Yeah, it'd be swell for investigators to get to the truth here and elsewhere, so we can save lives in the future.
Another goodie from that series: "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later that debt is paid."
India is gonna India. no surprises here.
Surely bias without knowledge is simply bigotry, yes?
Plenty of knowledge here.
It would appear that there are some who fear that their culture is being manipulated or maligned by others with open minds. Propaganda swallowing has become endemic in some cultures and not for the better either.
Syd, what's that even supposed to mean? Like, if we say, America's gon 'merica, or 'Straya's dun strayin' ... is it just bigotry?
Not all culture is good culture.
And pointing out bad culture doesn't make one a bigot.
What is wrong is enabling that bad culture because you think you are morally superior.
The first step in fixing a problem (poor culture) is acknowledging that you have a problem (poor culture).
The British ruined India and left with an incomplete brainwashed country.
One of the Eskimo characters has the audacity to post: “The British ruined India and left with an incomplete brainwashed country”.
However, the Eskimo fails to mention or acknowledge the atrocities committed by the Americans since 1945. The Far East, The Middle East, Central America, The Caribbean, need I say more?
As for accusing India of being a “Brainwashed country”, the Eskimo fails to consider that the citizens of the USA suffer from...
One of the Eskimo characters has the audacity to post: “The British ruined India and left with an incomplete brainwashed country”.
However, the Eskimo fails to mention or acknowledge the atrocities committed by the Americans since 1945. The Far East, The Middle East, Central America, The Caribbean, need I say more?
As for accusing India of being a “Brainwashed country”, the Eskimo fails to consider that the citizens of the USA suffer from being in the same league as Russia, China, North Korea and Iran, when it come to being “Brainwashed”, yes?
What this show is the US investigators have lost all credibility after the lopsided investigations after 737-MAX accidents where NTSB was functioning more like an extension of the wishes of Boeing management.
This won't have in the case 20 years ago. Unfortunately this is what you get when you lose all your credibility.
Bbt - I don't think you understand the relationship between the NTSB (an independent organization, known for regularly criticizing the FAA and the entity responsible for investigating accidents and issuing corrective recommendations) and the FAA (the governmental aviation oversight agency, who allowed Boeing to self-certify portions of the MAX design and construction). The NTSB - who is involved in the Air India crash investigation, not the FAA - has a clean record for providing details...
Bbt - I don't think you understand the relationship between the NTSB (an independent organization, known for regularly criticizing the FAA and the entity responsible for investigating accidents and issuing corrective recommendations) and the FAA (the governmental aviation oversight agency, who allowed Boeing to self-certify portions of the MAX design and construction). The NTSB - who is involved in the Air India crash investigation, not the FAA - has a clean record for providing details on the facts, regardless of how inconvenient they may be, or whom they point fingers at for causing or contributing to an accident.
If you actually read the NTSB's contributions to both MAX accidents, they never state the pilots were at fault in either accident. Instead, they point to a number of Boeing design flaws. In fact, regarding the Ethiopian crash, the NTSB's document states: “Boeing informed the NTSB they had made an engineering design error in their initial AOA Sensor Hazard Analysis” but “neither Boeing, the NTSB, nor the FAA informed Ethiopian authorities about this critical error.” The NTSB's hands are clean in how they dealt with the MAX crashes.
The details about the Air India 787 crash investigation the NTSB finds troubling (and Indian authorities seem key to ignore) - and not pointed out here in this article - are that the WSJ article states the audio recording reveals the captain remained calm while the first officer did not (including the first officer saying the traditional "Oh S***!" prior to impact) and that the FDR showed the first officer was pulling back on the controls, attempting to pull out of the descent - yet the captain did not. That is not the response expected of a pilot (the captain) caught unaware of a dual engine failure leading to an unplanned crash.
The findings that the captain deliberately crashed the plane is politically difficult, and attempting to locate some mechanical failure would exonerate India's flagship airline, along with the country's culture. But the evidence continues to point to a deliberate act, regardless of how inconvenient that may be - or how troubling that fact is to anyone.
This shows a poor understanding of the NTSB's role regarding the Max. You seem to have gotten them mixed up with the FAA.
@Ben - you are repeating inaccurate tabloid news reports that the Supreme Court in India ruled that "the captain can’t be blamed for the crash".
The actual ruling was that the preliminary report did not make any finding of blame, neither against the captain nor against Boeing, hence there was no standing for the father of the captain to request that those findings were voided (as they were never made), nor to request that...
@Ben - you are repeating inaccurate tabloid news reports that the Supreme Court in India ruled that "the captain can’t be blamed for the crash".
The actual ruling was that the preliminary report did not make any finding of blame, neither against the captain nor against Boeing, hence there was no standing for the father of the captain to request that those findings were voided (as they were never made), nor to request that the court should appoint an independent enquiry. The court further ruled that reports in foreign media fell outside the jurisdiction of the Indian courts, and that the father should not "carry any emotional burden" by virtue of those reports which may have jumped to conclusions that were not explicitly stated in the AAIB report. It also ruled that leaks to the WSJ presumably from the NTSB were "irresponsible" but also fell out of their jurisdiction.
The court actually ruled AGAINST the claim that the pilot should not be blamed (stating that the AAIB has to determine that), although many reports have completely mixed that point up by trying to condense the minutae of the ruling into a single headline.
TLDR; upto this point the AAIB has only issued one preliminary report which stated the facts and no conclusions as to the cause of the accident.
@Sean M.
Thank you very much for that clarification, which I have now confirmed from Indian newspaper reporting.
We should be supporting such members of the Indian judiciary who very much do the right thing in a country (far from the only one) where that is more difficult than in Europe.
I am not surprised by how India is handling it. If it is really the pilot's fault, it would be an embarrassment for them and in a typical way for them, they try to find a scapegoat and that's Boeing. I am not saying US is much better but yeah.
Point of order Lily …. how many times did Boeing attempt to “Scapegoat” the pilots before the truth was published?
Aero, it's wild for us to agree on anything, but, yes, I remain skeptical of Boeing, GE, any corporation who's incentive is to sweep this under the rug, blame scapegoats, and keep doing stock-buybacks to enrich their executives.
But 1990, you malign me …. I’m cut to the quick!
I actually agree with you on many issues, however, I usually choose to present the opposite view just to stir things up a bit.
Remember, clicks make cents …. cents make flight reviews possible and who amongst the readership does not visit this website for Ben’s flight reviews?
Click-away!
i dont think someone has done their research on indian aviation...at all, the 2020 kozhokode overrun, the indian investigators ''blamed'' the pilots, the 2010 mangalore disaster (investigated under a diff agency and govt), they also ''blamed'' the pilots, the 2000 plane crash in patna, ALSO pilot error was cited, and this occurs for almost every indian plane crash as well, dont use your anti-india bias and emotions over some objective facts, indian investigators (at least...
i dont think someone has done their research on indian aviation...at all, the 2020 kozhokode overrun, the indian investigators ''blamed'' the pilots, the 2010 mangalore disaster (investigated under a diff agency and govt), they also ''blamed'' the pilots, the 2000 plane crash in patna, ALSO pilot error was cited, and this occurs for almost every indian plane crash as well, dont use your anti-india bias and emotions over some objective facts, indian investigators (at least so far, we dont know about THIS crash yet at least) have not covered up a crash yet.
indian investigators are also well aware that the captain turned off the fuel (theyre still not able to determine why), they visited the father of the captain's house to tell him that which led to a lawsuit filed by him and pilot unions over the investigators telling his son did what he did.
How very Indian of them to try and cover up this tragedy and blame it on Boeing.
How very American for anyone to assume that Boeing has no case to answer without knowing all of the facts …. a very poor show Julia, yes?
This one is kinda simple in my book…. I would have never flown Air India before and I will for certain not fly them now - regardless of the conclusion of the investigation. There is no points redemption in the world that could convince me. Air India is still an operational pariah. Let’s see where they are in 10 years…
KL, do you feel the same way about Boeing Max aircraft or are you just displaying some sort of bias?
737 MAX was a reasonably safe aircraft before the crash, and is a very safe aircraft today. A pilot who can't deal with a runaway stab trim condition shouldn't be anywhere near controls of any passenger-carrying a/c.
(flown in a MAX on numerous occasions, and will be again soon; been to India; worked with Indians throughout my 35+yr corporate career in the States; won't step inside an AI aircraft)
Thanks NS, you are 100% correct. Why didn't US or western based MAX's fall out of the sky? Training? Experience, airmanship? Yes, to all. Runaway stab trim is a memory item. Every Boeing pilot knows it (almost every)
The noobs on here will throw up the bigot flag, to indicate how enlightened they are. None have them have ever been in the cockpit of a modern airliner and have no technical expertise on aviation or...
Thanks NS, you are 100% correct. Why didn't US or western based MAX's fall out of the sky? Training? Experience, airmanship? Yes, to all. Runaway stab trim is a memory item. Every Boeing pilot knows it (almost every)
The noobs on here will throw up the bigot flag, to indicate how enlightened they are. None have them have ever been in the cockpit of a modern airliner and have no technical expertise on aviation or aircraft. Yet they seem to lean towards blaming the evil greedy corporations and certainly can't stop themselves on opining on issues they have no knowledge of. (fuel cut off switches being one).
NS, every knowledgeable aviator knows only too well that one does not need thousands of hours on the Max, to have judged its airworthiness. Furthermore, amongst many military, ex military, commercial and ex-commercial aviators, Boeing has lost its name.
It is not a bigotry act to “Flag” one’s concerns, especially after one has lost close friends and colleagues killed in a Boeing cab. The pilots were maligned by Boeing, blamed for fatal crash and...
NS, every knowledgeable aviator knows only too well that one does not need thousands of hours on the Max, to have judged its airworthiness. Furthermore, amongst many military, ex military, commercial and ex-commercial aviators, Boeing has lost its name.
It is not a bigotry act to “Flag” one’s concerns, especially after one has lost close friends and colleagues killed in a Boeing cab. The pilots were maligned by Boeing, blamed for fatal crash and it has taken decades for the truth to come out. Some of us (with nothing to loose) flatly refused to fly the Boeing modified cabs. Not long after that the fatal crash occurred. Corrective measures were necessary to overcome the crash causing fatal flaws.
One undoubtedly has far more aviation experience, technical knowledge and flying hours, onboard both fixed and rotary wing aircraft, than you appear to have. You come across to me as being the bigoted one and antagonistic towards anyone who has a reason to speak out against the Boeing corporate culture and greed.
Apologies NS, my comment was meant for the poster pilot93434, too much sun today perhaps.
346 fatalities does not a safe aircraft make, think on NS.
While I don’t have plans to fly Air India, if the outcome of the investigation doesn’t affect whether you fly Air India, why bother commenting? If it was the captain, it’s hard to blame the airline for that. Airlines all over the world have seen comparable actions in the cockpit, it’s difficult to see how a determined captain or pilot can be prevented from acting to bring down a jet. Whether that’s the case here remains to be seen.
In the past, I would have absolutely blamed India. Now, with the current state of the US, I’m inclined to think if there is a cover up, it’s on the American side. Let’s not forget how the B737 Max crashes were blamed on pilots from developing nations not knowing how to fly it in an effort to exonerate Boeing. History repeating itself?
I’m inclined to agree. The U.S. destroyed their own credibility with how they handled the 737 MAX failures. I’m not one to trust India, either. I’ve long opined that Britain should be involved because many of their nationals were on board, too, but I guess the government’s coffers are stretched thin already
I will say thar I’m not avoiding the Dreamliner, but I just got another reason to avoid Indian airlines
You are a moron.
I am pleased to note that there are those who post herein who actually have real brain cells holding their ears apart.
Again, you guys are confusing the NTSB with the FAA. The former has not been afraid to criticize US manufacturers, airlines, pilots and governmental agencies.
you cant be this stupid right?
Nonsense. HUGE difference between the FAA and the NTSB. FAA, sure, I'd believe corruption among other things. But the NTSB is pretty beyond reproach with the investigations they perform. They are THE gold standard, and don't try to place blame or score points. The wording in an NTSB investigation is dry and is kept purely factual.
Even when the blame can be pointed in one direction, they typically use wording like "most likely" in...
Nonsense. HUGE difference between the FAA and the NTSB. FAA, sure, I'd believe corruption among other things. But the NTSB is pretty beyond reproach with the investigations they perform. They are THE gold standard, and don't try to place blame or score points. The wording in an NTSB investigation is dry and is kept purely factual.
Even when the blame can be pointed in one direction, they typically use wording like "most likely" in the causes. It's exactly how we should all expect them to be and what makes them so good at what they do.
Maybe countries not fully and transparently cooperating on the investigation should have their airlines banned from flying to US, EU etc. That might teach them to avoid these shenanigans.
Peter, playing the ‘Devil’s Advocate’ here, are we so sure that the U.S. is any more apt at “Transparently cooperating on the investigation”?
I get your point, but basics like not allowing photos being taken or having a judge rule what must not be stated as the cause of the accident? Maybe investigations should be led by third parties/countries instead.
You make some very valid points there Peter.
Surely, that is another good conversational article which Ben, will probably explore sometime soon.
Certainly an interesting idea.
So would Emirates be banned?
(for sacking the flight crew so they did not give evidence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirates_Flight_407 )
Will there ever be an absolute conclusion, two very different countries and cultures, let’s hope that in the end of all the investigations we get a definitive answer