In early 2024, United Airlines had a series of safety incidents that ultimately caused the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) to increase oversight of the airline. Among these incidents was a March 2024 runway excursion at Houston Intercontinental Airport (IAH), where a Boeing 737 MAX ran off the runway.
Anyway, here’s something that I find fascinating, nearly two years after the incident. A YouTube video has just been uploaded with an analysis of the cockpit voice recorder, and as an aviation geek, I find it to be incredibly interesting.
What exactly are pilots talking about in the flight deck after something like this? Well, the first phone call was to the union (not surprisingly), and the captain was also focused on not having to get on the same bus to the terminal as passengers, among other things…
In this post:
A United pilot’s surprising commentary after an accident
In March 2024, a United Boeing 737 MAX 8 ran off the runway in Houston, in what can only be described as a completely avoidable accident that was due to pilot error. The very experienced captain was the one flying, and to shorten taxi time, he wanted to roll to the end of the (long) runway.
However, he clearly underestimated the amount of space he’d need, as the plane didn’t slow down enough, sending it off the end of the runway (well, and to the side). He wasn’t following United’s published procedures for landing on a wet runway, so the primary cause of the accident was the captain’s actions.
YouTube channel Flying for Money has an analysis of the cockpit voice recorder, including a recreation of what was said, based on the transcript. I imagine that any pilot would be super rattled after a runway incursion, though the discussions aren’t necessarily what you’d expect.
What makes this unique is that the pilots decided not to order an evacuation via slides (which was a smart move, since those evacuations typically lead to injuries). That meant they waited onboard the plane for stairs to be driven to the plane, and as a result, the extended conversation between the pilots was caught on the cockpit voice recorder.
3min15sec into the video, while still on the plane, you can hear the captain calling his union, the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), to report the incident, and they advise him not to say anything else on the airplane:
Captain: “Listen, I just ran off the end of runway 27.”
ALPA rep: “You did this just now?”
Captain: “Yeah, we’re sitting here in the airplane, left main gear collapsed, and we’re deplaning right now in the buses.”
ALPA rep: “Okay, don’t say another word in the airplane.”
Captain: “Okay, all right.”
The ALPA safety chair then tells them to perform the evacuation, and then assemble the flight attendants away from potential bystander video:
Captain: “We’re sitting both in the cockpit right now.”
ALPA rep: “Okay, door closed?”
Captain: “Door’s closed, the APU is off because the flight attendants told us there was a fuel leak. We’re on the emergency power.”
ALPA rep: “Hey guys, just so you know who I am, I’m the Central Air Safety Committee Chair for ALPA. Just gotta let you know just take a deep breath. It’s okay, relax. Things like this happen. Not a good week for United. We just lost a tire going through the parking lot, so things like this happen. So go through your procedures, make sure you cover all your items, follow your evacuation checklist.”
Captain: “All right, that’s done.”
ALPA rep: “Okay, so now you just secured everything, you’re done at that point. You guys should now start to gather your, I want you to have a plan, you’re gonna travel to the chief pilot’s office, do not do anything else, you’re not talking to anybody. You’re gonna go down there, they’re probably going to make you do a drug and alcohol test, right? That’s standard.”
Captain: “Yeah.”
ALPA rep: “Okay, they’re gonna ask you questions. Your response is gonna be very clearly, ‘I’m a little rattled right now, let me gather my thoughts and we’ll file the appropriate reports in due time.’ I don’t want you guys saying anything right now. Catch your breath, right? Your career is intact, everything’s gonna be fine. This will be a flight safety investigation. You will be completely protected, and after about a month, you’ll go back and fly the line again, and this will be over and done with, okay.”
Captain: “Yeah, the only other thing is that I don’t really want to board the bus with the passengers, so I gotta figure out a way how to get to the terminal.”
ALPA rep: “Okay, what I want you to do is to call maintenance on another line and tell them to send a truck or a vehicle there to take you and the first officer to the chief pilot’s office.”
Hey, I sort of get that the captain doesn’t want to “confront” passengers, but it’s fascinating that one of the few things he proactively asks for and mentions is that he doesn’t want to get on the bus with passengers.
Another interesting thing is that 14min35sec into the video, it has the transcript of the cockpit voice recorder just shortly after the accident (before all of the above happens), where the captain repeatedly and profusely apologizes to the first officer. Over and over, he says things like “God darn it, I’m so sorry,” and “I’m in deep $hit,” and “I can’t believe I did this,” and “sorry, man, to get you into this mess.”
It’s really interesting to hear this kind of commentary
I think I’ve seen just about every episode of Air Crash Investigation over the years, and there you’ll often hear the transcripts of the cockpit voice recorder. However, in many ways it’s interesting to hear this kind of commentary for a less serious, non-fatal accident.
As mentioned above, what’s unique here is how long the pilots were onboard the aircraft after the incident, which meant that what they were discussing after the incident was recorded much longer than it usually would be.
I don’t actually think anything here is too shocking, but it’s still interesting to hear. Of course the captain’s first call is going to be to the union, because he wants to avoid losing his job. It’s also noteworthy how the union is very concerned about overall optics, even telling the pilots to keep the flight attendants away from any possible passenger video.
And the fact that one of the only proactive questions on the part of the captain is how he can avoid getting on a bus with passengers is interesting, and clearly a reflection of where his head was at.
Bottom line
In March 2024, a United Boeing 737 MAX ran off the runway in Houston, due to pilot error. The captain wanted to shorten the taxi time, but wasn’t following procedures for a wet runway, and underestimated the amount of runway he’d need to slow down.
The plane ended up partly in the grass with some serious damage, and everyone stayed onboard for a while, since an emergency evacuation via slides wasn’t needed. As a result, the cockpit voice recorder also captured a lot more conversation than it usually would, with everything ranging from the call to the union, to the captain’s immediate regret.
What do you make of this cockpit voice recorder transcript?
Ironically this was at the height of DEI and the fascination of unqualified low time pilots crashing planes. Come to find out, dudes 60+ with several thousand hours. Oh golly be golly, even "experienced" pilots screw up! Jippers jee golly good gosh someone make me a bundt cake.
Parker, Sully did nothing wrong. He lost both engines due to bird strikes. He then took the only option available, which meant landing in the river. In this case the captain blundered and caused the problem due to his own mistakes, so he should suffer the consequences.
No checking on the passengers well being, no concerns expressed about if anyone got hurt, just a call to the union to save his butt.
Send him back through a pilot safety class and test him in the simulator to make sure he passes.
Did the captain keep his job?
Am curious what the cost to United (repairs, passenger compensation, extended pay for FA, etc) from an incident like this and if they penalize the pilot financially in some way.
Friends. We did it. 100 comments. Well done. Sometimes, you just have to believe. *salute*
Absolutely, 100 comments and not a single expletive to note, now that is an achievement!
As this incident unfolded almost two years ago, surely one of you armchair serious incident and accident investigators, knows the outcome?
Perhaps Ben, is keeping that knowledge under his hat?
Aero, we were so close to 100… this’ll be #92. Can we still get it done? I can see the finish line on the horizon! My Starlink is going strong at 245mbps.
1990, one would be interested in your flight details if your are willing or able to share them? I had wondered what was wrong with your sleeping schedule if you were U.S. based. I suspected that you might have wet the bed or something …. :-)
So sorry, I just couldn’t resist have some at your expense …. Safe flight.
Apologies …. I’m not loosing the plot with that last post, simply loosing the fight with my puppy who is demanding attention.
Sorry for the delay. Actually got some decent rest on this one, which was nice. I don’t like to get too specific, but one of the ME3.
And, don’t worry, comrade, I’m not going to Davos… LOL.
Ben, with all due, I think you misinterpreted the Captain's request for separate transfer to terminal. The union safety committee Chairman just informed him to go directly to Chief Pilot's office. And further instructed him to not talk to anyone. It's reasonable given that an emergency slide evacuation did not occur that the crew would be segregated from pax. There's nothing untoward about this.
Ben - Love this blog and read it daily and actually take up some of the credit card offers.
Can we please give Timmy Done a little time off? He's been working way too hard here.
Tim may be MAGA and way too Delta-corporate, but I’m still happy he’s here.
Censorship is silly. The answer to speech you don’t like is more speech.
If the next wave of Timmy vacation is happening. You can be sure 1990 will be joining Tim.
Let’s not be silly Esk, you no only too well that you are next in line for any wing clipping, yes?
I’ve used up my GUCs, and still got some RUCs, so it’ll need to be domestic… if anyone finds a confirmed D1 upgrade for JFK-HNL, I’ll drop everything. Like, just share the date. That’s a dream redemption.
WCF, come now old sock, do get with the program. Tim, is actually doing you a big favour by providing Ben, with clicks. Clicks mean more credit card offers for you to enjoy, yes? It is rather remiss of you not to embrace the process and provide more clicks yourself, don’t you know?
No joke, when I use a random search engine (no cookies) to ask travel or credit card questions, often OMAAT is a source. That’s high praise!
I'm surprised pulling the CVR circuit breaker isn't part of the procedure in this case. In case of mild incidents it usually is, to preserve as much as possible from the lead-up to the incident (instead of having it overwritten by whatever chitchat happens past landing).
as long as pilots are in the cockpit, the CVR should be running post accident.
Besides, I believe current CVRs hold 2 hours and are going up to 25 hours.
Maintenance will pull the circuit breakers when they take control of the plane.
Surprise, surprise. The "We Are Here For Your Safety" union crowd got caught hiding in the cockpit, ignoring their own passengers during an emergency evacuation, and desperately looking to avoid blame while practicing slimey collusion with their union reps. Pure cowardice.
Off this topic it maybe, however, it is reported on the right side of the pond that Adolf Trump, is rattling his sabre yet again. This time he is threatening additional tariffs on those countries which do not support him in his invasion of Greenland …. and there are those who post herein, who called the Israelis a Nazi regime. Bleeding hypocrites!
not sure it has to do with a UA overrun at IAH but US media is reporting the same.
Maybe, just maybe, Trump has a point about Greenland's strategic value for arctic defense which even Denmark's PM admitted is true.
Denmark is a solid partner and takes an outsized lead in NATO which has to address the arctic region.
The UK is stepping up its interests in the arctic.
There will be no...
not sure it has to do with a UA overrun at IAH but US media is reporting the same.
Maybe, just maybe, Trump has a point about Greenland's strategic value for arctic defense which even Denmark's PM admitted is true.
Denmark is a solid partner and takes an outsized lead in NATO which has to address the arctic region.
The UK is stepping up its interests in the arctic.
There will be no invasion or tariffs related to Denmark.
There will be increased military development of Greenland which will benefit the US and Europe - and strangely, the US is willing to pay a larger share - but also wants some mineral rights out of the deal.
None of which mattered at IAH where it is never arctic and nothing of value was found in the mud as UA extracted their MAX
Thank you for your insight Tim, it is always interesting to obtain an additional perspective.
But, but… what about our ‘special relationship’?? /s (referring to US-UK)
And, Aero, if you’re interested in fulfilling Tim’s prophecy of getting this comments tally past 100, we can continue off-topic discussions as much as you wish. You know that I am often down-to-clown. Have you begun your journey to South Africa yet?
Do try to keep up 1990, we spent most of December in the Cape ….. as we do every year in the RSA spring ….
Our next foray is East, next month, on that bleeding French 777. You know the one with that, what has been described elsewhere, is more grey than a battle ship.
La Premiere?!
1990, you really are well behind the curve on this subject. Even Eskimo, knows only too well that I am about to end a four decades absence from any AF flight. Yes, darlink, LP it is. We go out on it and return SQ.
Malva on AF? What are you thinking? We have been south and are going east next month.
Fine, gulab jamoon instead? Creme brûlée?? Hon hon hon…
Hope you loaded up on malva pudding.
Maybe my favorite dessert.
Actually, the pilots would have First advised the ATC Tower of the mishap .
Calling the union on his personal cell phone is sensible , and the union's advice is sensible .
the ATC tower watched it happen and heard the captain's call for fire trucks since there were reports of a fuel leak.
So did UA's personnel in their ramp tower.
I’m with you, Alert. It’s an unfortunate accident, but the attempts by some here to vilify either this pilot or that union (or all pilots and unions) are laughable. Errors do happen; it ultimately all gets investigated. And for Tim to merely pile-on because it’s United this time, is kinda sad. Like, next time it might be Delta and its pilots union (remember, Tim, they’ve had one since 1934!)
facts have nothing to do with whether it was DL or UA.
Go back and see what I said about the DL A350 slicing off the CRJ tail. I hardly patted DL's pilots on the back.
btw, that CRJ is back in the air. incredible work by Delta Tech Ops
That’s impressive. How about those two CRJ’s that clipped each other at LGA?
A thought on the bus thing. I can't say if that's what I'd be worried about but I can understand why he might. Imagine making the worst mistake of your career and then having to hang out with 100+ ppl who were impacted by that.
Another complication: imagine hanging out with 100+ ppl with 100+ cell phones all recording you after the worst mistake of your career. I can't say if that's what he...
A thought on the bus thing. I can't say if that's what I'd be worried about but I can understand why he might. Imagine making the worst mistake of your career and then having to hang out with 100+ ppl who were impacted by that.
Another complication: imagine hanging out with 100+ ppl with 100+ cell phones all recording you after the worst mistake of your career. I can't say if that's what he was concerned about, but after giving it some thought yeah I'd rather hitch a ride on the maintenance truck too. It's not like he abandoned his passengers during an emergency like that cruise ship captain.
so he instead stayed in the cockpit and called the union so the cockpit voice recorders could pick up the conversation.
All he had to do is STEP OFF the aircraft and out of the cockpit but the company ended up hearing the conversation anyway.
The worst that he could have done is have his picture taken and plastered on the news beside the plane but then said he needed to remain with the plane...
so he instead stayed in the cockpit and called the union so the cockpit voice recorders could pick up the conversation.
All he had to do is STEP OFF the aircraft and out of the cockpit but the company ended up hearing the conversation anyway.
The worst that he could have done is have his picture taken and plastered on the news beside the plane but then said he needed to remain with the plane and not ride back w/ the passengers.
Getting out of the cockpit and riding the bus with the passengers are two separate things and he took the worse path for the one that mattered the most - which is talking to someone right after the accident.
Ok. I'll cut him some slack that he just had a terrifying ride and was wondering if that was going to be his last day sitting in an airline cockpit. Ultimately everyone got off safely and it was a happy ending--that's what's important.
Also, I'm not defending him. I'm not going to judge and I don't think others should either. I appreciate the article simply as a look into a side of aviation that we almost never see.
Was that a Costs Concordia reference?
You’re in charge of a plane full of people and you sit inside a locked cockpit while awaiting rescue? What an astonishing lack of moral courage.
Sure, let's all freak out, panic, scream, and lose it... much better. /s
So the person responsible for the flight is supposed to hide behind a locked door because people might lose it? What??? It was a cowardly and craven act.
By all means, as the captain of the ship, lock yourself in cockpit and stay in there. Screw the passengers and the rest of the crew. You can do what’s right or what’s comfortable. Clearly, he made a choice.
If he is such a wuss that he cannot face the people he put in harm’s way he has no business sitting in the captain’s chair. I’m pretty sure Sully didn’t lock himself in the...
By all means, as the captain of the ship, lock yourself in cockpit and stay in there. Screw the passengers and the rest of the crew. You can do what’s right or what’s comfortable. Clearly, he made a choice.
If he is such a wuss that he cannot face the people he put in harm’s way he has no business sitting in the captain’s chair. I’m pretty sure Sully didn’t lock himself in the cockpit until the passengers were off the wing and request a separate evacuation boat. But, I could be wrong.
Parker, the plane wasn’t floating on the Hudson…
…. and yo failed to read, digest and comprehend what Parker was posting 1990!
Ok, Aero, I take it all back… the pilot should’ve ‘done something!’ because if he didn’t, they’d all have DROWNED!! (at IAH beside the taxiway)…Better?? /s
“We just lost a tire going through the parking lot…” Ahh, SFO! I remember that one…
1990 …. I’m betting that you were not on board a Ryanair flight ….
You don’t like £42 base fare, safety cards on the back of the seats, and negative legroom? It’s the best! Take your friends…
You continue to FAIL to answer a simple question 1990. Would you like me to continue to repeat it until it sinks in?
Alternatively, one could choose to conclude that you have never (like me) set a foot on a O’Leary jet?
4x. It’s been a little whine. Much prefer AF/KL for intra-Europe these days. Sorry.
*while
Down with unions... ROFL
‘Shut up and don’t say anything’ is more lawyers than anything else.
@1990 no, that is classic union talk. Circle the wagons and protect the herd.
And, what would you prefer the union do? Repeatedly shout at the pilot: ‘Burn the witch! Burn the witch! Burn the witch!’ Even defendants should have counsel.
1990, you are loosing the plot old bean. Try taking the example of keeping your lips buttoned up if you know that you are being overheard, yes?
Might as well keep flicking the bean…
The US plane in the Hudson was never at risk of sinking. It was able to float…chance a more orderly evacuation and dozens of people in the Hudson with hypothermia.
I recall stories of a couple of EXPs standing on the wing calling the EXP line to get rebooked. Probably urban legend. I do remember the plane was towed by a tug to the dock.
My bigger point is that, as a leader, your...
The US plane in the Hudson was never at risk of sinking. It was able to float…chance a more orderly evacuation and dozens of people in the Hudson with hypothermia.
I recall stories of a couple of EXPs standing on the wing calling the EXP line to get rebooked. Probably urban legend. I do remember the plane was towed by a tug to the dock.
My bigger point is that, as a leader, your first duty is to the lives with which you are entrusted…then yours. At least that’s what leadership was about before the “I owe you nothing” decade we are in. It’s like all of the bad parts of the 80’s without the good music and big hair.
WOAH. Is that for real? “Umm, hi, yeah, my flight was… um… cancelled… yeah… anyway, I’m freezing my toes off in the Hudson River in January… can you get me on the 2:35 to from LGA to Charlotte?”
It is beyond telling that the captain thought that calling on a cell phone would keep it private while the cockpit voice recorders are still rolling and, if the captain pulled the circuit breakers on them, he could be criminally charged with obstructing the investigation.
Does he not realize that the Chief Pilot also has a cell phone? Don't you think his first call should be to the company and not the union.
I can...
It is beyond telling that the captain thought that calling on a cell phone would keep it private while the cockpit voice recorders are still rolling and, if the captain pulled the circuit breakers on them, he could be criminally charged with obstructing the investigation.
Does he not realize that the Chief Pilot also has a cell phone? Don't you think his first call should be to the company and not the union.
I can assure you that UA mgmt didn't hear this recording for the first time in the last few days.
and, yeah, UA had a bad week or so of incidents including the 777 that dropped a tire on takeoff from SFO. UA was regularly in the news for a couple of months and then did it all over again last year as EWR imploded due to overscheduling.
Please be sure to monitor the comments here all day today, tonight, and tomorrow, as the internet has come to rely on your expertise on literally everything related to everything, from airlines to airplanes to workers to passengers to safety to politics to law enforcement. What makes your comments so valuable is the A) Volume of your posts, B) Fact that you actually know everything there is to know, and C) You have nothing to...
Please be sure to monitor the comments here all day today, tonight, and tomorrow, as the internet has come to rely on your expertise on literally everything related to everything, from airlines to airplanes to workers to passengers to safety to politics to law enforcement. What makes your comments so valuable is the A) Volume of your posts, B) Fact that you actually know everything there is to know, and C) You have nothing to learn, but everything to teach; what you say are facts, never opinions, and you always get the last word, which is a real sign of earned self-confidence, and an understanding of what matters most. The last word is the word that sticks, and your mastery of this is nothing short of awesome. Your willingness to say something about everything, no matter how trivial, is a sight to behold!
Thank you for your endless and tireless contributions, and keeping everyone in line with your facts. May you live and comment forever.
now, counter what I wrote with your own facts.
does the UA Chief pilot not have a cell phone?
Do cockpit voice recorders not also record cell phone conversations - at least the half of the conversation that is made in the cockpit?
and when even the union rep reminded the pilot that UA had a bad week, everyone knew the scrutiny was on UA.
Errors and accidents happen; fortunately, airlines are well-insured for these incidents. No need to vilify crews, or bash unions. Glad everyone was alright at the end of the day here.
and yet there were mistakes. Aviation is safer because people learned from the mistakes that were made in the past.
Humans make mistakes. but we don't sweep them under the rug because they are uncomfortable to some to discuss
There are alot of lessons to be learned and that is why Ben posted the article.
I’d be surprised if the pilot here wasn’t put on mandatory leave, had to submit fully to the internal and external investigations, and likely did not return without additional training.
I’d also be shocked if United didn’t insure for this situation; like, they’d be a bad business if they just took the loss without covering such possibilities. Please tell me Delta is insured for such situations.
Why would his first cell phone call be to the company? He’d just run an aircraft into the grass at one of UA’s biggest hubs and notified ATC. The chief pilot will know soon enough.
and yet ALPA wasn't there to provide the ride in a provide car to the Chief Pilot's office; that was up to UA or the local airport officials to do.
and ALPA recognized as the guy is talking to them from the cockpit that the call was being recorded because the voice recorders were still running.
All the pilot had to do was step out of the cockpit and off the plane and no...
and yet ALPA wasn't there to provide the ride in a provide car to the Chief Pilot's office; that was up to UA or the local airport officials to do.
and ALPA recognized as the guy is talking to them from the cockpit that the call was being recorded because the voice recorders were still running.
All the pilot had to do was step out of the cockpit and off the plane and no one would have heard what was said - but passengers might have been able to get pictures of him to send to the local news or post on social media. Which turned out better?
UA knew immediately what he said and UA, not ALPA and not the FAA pays his salary.
THAT is why his first call should have been to call his company - whose employees saw what happened from their ramp tower.
and, of course, he and every pilot first need to know how to respond in an emergency including about what you say. He needed to be coached through that.
This is literally standard protocol for all ALPA pilots including DL, call union rep first once everything secured.
Yeah, it's not like the plane ended upside down or anything. Knowing that the plane is secure, no injuries, you can concentrate on the other stuff.
Now, is this just as bad of a look and optics? Sure. He didn't do himself any favors with the conversation.
standard protocol is not to hide in the cockpit from passengers or FAs while making the call while the CVR is still recording.
Everything was NOT secured. THAT is the point. the passengers had not even left the accident scene.
So, what happened to the captain? Was he back in the air one month later as the union rep promised?
I’m sure there was an appropriate leave period, and apparently, there was an investigation, as there is after nearly all aviation accidents like this.
Do you really need to dox and harass this pilot? You do you, but, that seems psychotic to me.
I’d imagine this incident is a low point in his career, but it doesn’t mean he should forever lose his license or serve a life sentence in a prison because of it.
Honestly I *could* see him losing his license over it given that it was a completely avoidable incident that resulted from his decision making. I guess I don't feel strongly either way but I to was interested to see what happened to him.
Eh, I don't know the OP's motivation for asking, but I was wondering the same thing. Certainly not because I want to shame/dox the pilot, I'm curious about the consequence for this. He made a bad call, but it's not like he was drunk or on his phone or otherwise negligent. It seems like there should be some grace. On the other hand, he cost his company millions of dollars, and similar bad calls have...
Eh, I don't know the OP's motivation for asking, but I was wondering the same thing. Certainly not because I want to shame/dox the pilot, I'm curious about the consequence for this. He made a bad call, but it's not like he was drunk or on his phone or otherwise negligent. It seems like there should be some grace. On the other hand, he cost his company millions of dollars, and similar bad calls have cost ppl their lives. I'd have no problem with this man as my pilot, but I'm curious how what happened to him and his career.
I wouldn't want this man as my pilot, but not because he had a runway excursion. As a pilot myself and a fellow human, I'm willing to extend some grace to a person who accidentally misjudged his braking distance on a slippery surface. Anyone who has been in a rear-ender on a slippery road should understand how easily this can happen. The unforgivable part, for me, is hiding out in the cockpit and intentionally avoiding...
I wouldn't want this man as my pilot, but not because he had a runway excursion. As a pilot myself and a fellow human, I'm willing to extend some grace to a person who accidentally misjudged his braking distance on a slippery surface. Anyone who has been in a rear-ender on a slippery road should understand how easily this can happen. The unforgivable part, for me, is hiding out in the cockpit and intentionally avoiding any and all interaction with the people who entrusted him with their lives. Accidents happen. Cowardice is a choice.
Wow 1990! You sure are touchy about this. I was just curious what happened following the incident. No real desire to harass the pilot.
Fair enough.
Calling his union rep makes sense as he needs to know what his next steps should be. Would you criticize someone calling their lawyer in a time potential legal issues?
It would appear that he was advised there were no injuries and other than passengers being shook up and now massively inconvenience they were ok. Understandably, he doesn't want to have to address potential endless questions from passengers on the bus of what went wrong...
Calling his union rep makes sense as he needs to know what his next steps should be. Would you criticize someone calling their lawyer in a time potential legal issues?
It would appear that he was advised there were no injuries and other than passengers being shook up and now massively inconvenience they were ok. Understandably, he doesn't want to have to address potential endless questions from passengers on the bus of what went wrong and why.
That's not to excuse possible pilot errors and bad judgement. That's for the experts at the NTSB to determine not commenters to a blog post.
@ George Romey -- Not sure if this is directed at my post, but I wasn't intending to criticize the captain or his decision to call the union. I just thought it was interesting to actually hear this.
Any self respecting commercial pilot, should have the intelligence to know that you do not speak (at all), until you are in the presence of your chosen advisors. Whilst in the cockpit he should have kept his lips firmly buttoned up! Talking while under the influence of adrenaline, can become a pathway to disaster.
There’s a time and place to call the union. The cockpit of a crashed plane ain’t it.
I agree, George. Once it was understood as to not be an emergency evacuation, the call the union was reasonable, as would be a call to an attorney in other situations. Like, in a court setting, I doubt such evidence of a ‘defendant’ calling their attorney would be allowed to insinuate that therefore he’s ‘guilty’ or that anyone pleading the Fifth is automatically guilty (even though our President has suggested as much.)
1990, “The call the union” as you put it was “Reasonable”, however, to do so from the cockpit, knowing that the cockpit voice recorder was operating, is hardly commendable, yes?
Until you’ve been crew during an actual incident like this, who knows how you or I would react. Obviously, nothing here is ‘great.’ Still, glad everyone was alright.
1990, you assume far too much old sock, you simply know nothing of what you post.
I have been the AC and MC on more missions, with more of your so called “Incidents” than you could ever imagine child.
Thank you for your service. #99
Just a quick reminder for all the union critics: No unions are as forcefully protective of their members in the face of wrong-doing than those in law enforcement and corrections.
Majority of unions are respectively and doing good work. Exception being law enforcement and corrections unions. They’re dreadful.
I work in a hospital union shop at a hospital with more than God. The staff are well paid and well-resourced, better than most hospitals I’ve seen in my 20 year career in healthcare advisory work (separate from my clinical work). All I hear is the non-stop whining of:
1. We’re short staffed.
2. We don’t have enough resources.
3. I didn’t get my break.
4. I’m not going above my ratio...
I work in a hospital union shop at a hospital with more than God. The staff are well paid and well-resourced, better than most hospitals I’ve seen in my 20 year career in healthcare advisory work (separate from my clinical work). All I hear is the non-stop whining of:
1. We’re short staffed.
2. We don’t have enough resources.
3. I didn’t get my break.
4. I’m not going above my ratio and I can’t care if the patient is dying, find someone else.
5. I’m going to file a grievance.
Not a single one asks if they are providing safe, effective, efficient care.
And what do the admins in those same hospitals (presumably non-unionized) talk about? The same stuff. Or what, are they volunteering to man the ED when there are patients waiting in the waiting room?
It's human nature to complain. The literal President of America right now is whining every day about random grievances, while the literal richest man in the country whines on his bought-and-paid-for twitter platform about similar grievances from anonymous internet trolls.
The...
And what do the admins in those same hospitals (presumably non-unionized) talk about? The same stuff. Or what, are they volunteering to man the ED when there are patients waiting in the waiting room?
It's human nature to complain. The literal President of America right now is whining every day about random grievances, while the literal richest man in the country whines on his bought-and-paid-for twitter platform about similar grievances from anonymous internet trolls.
The real question is: do those hospitals have abnormally high mortality rates or other quality indicators? No? Then those unionized personnel are doing their job. What they talk about between themselves is irrelevant.
Lune, preach! Thank you!
So American.
No one can ever be who they are due to endless litigation
Well, well …. and is this article going to bring out all of the ‘Walter Mitty’s’ or what …. at least a 100 clicks Ben. Well spotted old bean.
You understand how the Internet works these days, right? Why do you post the same, lame thing every day? Seriously.
For the same reason's as you of course Ronnie. I simply wish to aid Ben’s, click count. Yes! You can see that it works too …. as you took the click-bait, yes?
I think we can get it to 200 REPLIES. Ben can get 100 CLICKS to an article like this 10 minutes after it is posted.
This is not the type of story that gets to 100, let alone 200, unless you fellas really want to manufacture a debate. It’s the Trump-stuff, and confusing new-card-stuff, and Ben-personal-announcement stuff that get those numbers. Regardless, most of us are here because we care. Love of the game, right?
But 1990, with the help of your prolific postings, surely you can achieve 100 with little or no effort on your part. Especially if you are courteous enough to tell everyone how many Ryanair flights you have taken …. yes?
I told ‘Guest’ Aero, 4x. I suppose your secretary didn’t pass along the memo. Wasn’t much better or worse than Spirit, or Vueling, or Easyjet. Haven’t tried Wizz, but I’d imagine they’re similar, eh?
Typical union bullshit… lie and obfuscate.
I think you meant: protect their members. Would you prefer your union throw you under the bus? Airlines are well-insured for accidents. United is just fine. This pilot doesn’t deserve a death sentence for his mistake.
@1990
It speaks a lot about your character.
You're now just putting REAL people in the hands of faceless corporations who put a lowball $ value on human lives under the excuse of insurance.
Unions are supposed to protect members from unfair employers.
What unions are today is protecting bad members from being accountable.
This case reflects it all.
Both you and unions.
Nah, Eskimo, this pilot is not ‘bad’; he may have made a serious error; that doesn’t make him forever banished from the industry. Accidents happen in my fields. Thankfully, everyone was alright here, in the end.
Great pilots also face impossible situations. Look no further than the recent UPS tragedy at Louisville. We need to be less hard on our crew members, more supportive, more understanding. They deal with a lot as it is.
Where did they lie? Where did they obfuscate?
They gave very good advice to their member. Indeed, that's probably their official policy, nothing secretive about it. They just wanted to reiterate it to their pilot in case he was rattled and didn't remember it.
Did they tell the pilot to lie to anyone? Did they tell them to prioritize his safety over completing his checklists and evacuation procedures?
Typical anti-union bullshit. Call them out...
Where did they lie? Where did they obfuscate?
They gave very good advice to their member. Indeed, that's probably their official policy, nothing secretive about it. They just wanted to reiterate it to their pilot in case he was rattled and didn't remember it.
Did they tell the pilot to lie to anyone? Did they tell them to prioritize his safety over completing his checklists and evacuation procedures?
Typical anti-union bullshit. Call them out for stuff they didn't do.
@Lune
Being told his "Miranda rights" by the union doesn't mean people are bashing unions.
But if you're really innocent, Miranda or not, you shouldn't be rattle no?
Eskimo… this isn’t a crime. Sheesh.
I wish it was a surprise that ALPA went into full CYA mode rather than getting facts out and focusing on safety.
Julie, NTSB would get the facts anyway. Unions are supposed to protect their members. If anything this story shows the real value of organized labor, not to undermine it. Think of it as counsel in a legal dispute; you’d want a decent attorney, no? Or do you prefer to represent yourself? …a fool for a client.