Lufthansa is facing a lawsuit in which it’s being accused of outing a gay couple to the Saudi Arabian government, due to the indiscretion of a manager for the airline, who also reportedly demeaned the couple. This is quite a wild story, and based on the allegations, it sure seems like they have a point (thanks to an OMAAT reader who is a lawyer for bringing this to my attention)…
In this post:
Lufthansa manager in Riyadh accused of indiscretion
This incident involves a gay couple, with one man being a United States citizen, and one man being a Saudi Arabian citizen. The couple had been together for over 30 years, in a “committed, but discreet” relationship, and spent most of their time living in Saudi Arabia, but they also often traveled to San Francisco. In 2013, they were legally married in California.
As it’s described, “living very carefully, they successfully kept their 33-year relationship a secret from the government, strangers, employers, friends, and family, alike.” That all changed in May 2021, when the couple wanted to return to San Francisco, after being stuck in Saudi Arabia for over a year, due to pandemic restrictions.
At the time, the United States banned non-citizen travelers from Saudi Arabia from entering the United States, unless they had immediate family who were United States citizens. The couple claimed they booked Lufthansa over other airlines because they expected that Lufthansa would be discreet in handling their martial status for the purposes of the United States entry requirements.
When the couple arrived at Riyadh Airport to check-in, the Lufthansa agent requested that the Saudi Arabian citizen provide his familial relationship that granted him entry to the United States. So they requested to speak to the most senior Lufthansa official at the airport, who was the deputy station manager. While out of earshot of anyone, the couple explained they were married.
The deputy station manager reportedly became loud and hostile, declaring loudly that he could not believe they were married. Even after presenting the marriage certificate, the manager continued to publicly demean and question the relationship.
They were then taken to Lufthansa’s office at the airport, so that copies of the passports and marriage certificate could be sent to Lufthansa’s headquarters. They expressed concern about the Saudi government intercepting these communications, but those concerns were ignored. They asked the deputy manager to call the station manager, but he reportedly refused to speak to them.
The couple were allowed to board, but were shaken by what happened. Long story short, there were a lot of communication failures (Lufthansa claimed they’d reach out to them, but never did), but here’s where it gets problematic.
Around a month after the incident, the Saudi Arabian citizen discovered that his marital status on his Saudi government profile was changed from “single” to “married,” and they allege that “there is no conceivable way the Saudi Arabian government could have learned about Plaintiffs’ marriage other than as a result of” what happened on this Lufthansa flight.
The Saudi Arabian citizen never returned home again
Since this incident, the Saudi Arabian citizen hasn’t returned to his home country, “for fear of harsh penalties for being homosexual, including the revocation of his passport, imprisonment, and even execution.”
Instead, he has remained in the United States, first through a visa, and then through a Green Card. He has also not seen his family since the incident. They all live in Saudi Arabia, and don’t know about his sexuality.
As a result of this, the couple also claims they had to sell real estate in Saudi Arabia, incurring a loss of around $300K. The Saudi citizen also claims to have developed pulmonary fibrosis, a terminal illness, which he claims is a result of the stress from the incident.
In 2024, a judge had ruled that the lawsuit couldn’t proceed in California, because while Lufthansa does business in California, “plaintiffs failed to show that their claims arise out of or relate to defendants’ activities in California.” However, that wasn’t the end of this. The United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth District has just issued a decision, reversing the previous decision.
My take on this Lufthansa Saudi Arabia lawsuit
I’m not a lawyer, so I’m not going to claim to have a good take on the legal basis of this lawsuit. However, I certainly feel bad for this couple, and have a few thoughts:
- Bigger picture, I feel bad for this Saudi Arabian citizen, as I can only imagine the stress he has felt living in the closet for decades; I know this is so common in many parts of the world, but I’m grateful that I can just be myself and live openly, and have the acceptance of family and friends
- Shame on this deputy station manager for his lack of discretion; I understand he might personally take issues with the way other people live their lives, but one would hope that employees for a German airline are trained when it comes to respect and tolerance in line with the values of that company, at a minimum (for what it’s worth, this guy still seems to work at Lufthansa, based on his LinkedIn)
- I am curious about how the information sharing could’ve actually happened here; does this have to be something as nefarious as the Saudi Arabian government “intercepting” these communications, or the manager proactively reporting this to the government, or is there just a certain level of information sharing between governments?
- I also don’t actually know what kind of repercussions this man would face; admittedly a citizen might face harsher punishments than a foreigner, since generally there aren’t laws against “being gay” (as in… having gay thoughts), but instead, the laws are against acting on it, etc.
- I’m curious if the accusations can actually be proven, beyond there just being a hunch that this thing that happened at Lufthansa check-in triggered all of this; yes, it seems likely, but is it beyond a reasonable doubt?
Bottom line
Lufthansa is facing a lawsuit over a 2021 incident, where an American and Saudi Arabian gay couple were traveling from Saudi Arabia to the United States. Due to pandemic restrictions, they had to prove their marriage in order to enter the United States.
The Lufthansa manager at Riyadh Airport was reportedly incredibly rude to them, didn’t believe they were married, and became loud and hostile. A month later, the Saudi Arabian citizen noticed his government profile showed his marital status as being updated, from “single” to “married.”
He hasn’t returned to Saudi Arabia since, meaning he hasn’t seen his family, and he claims to have even developed serious health issues as a result of the stress from this incident.
What do you make of this Lufthansa “outing” situation?
Gay American here who has worked in Saudi and across MENA and have grad degrees in the field. This is all-around terrible and I am a strong supporter of decriminalization of homosexuality. I'll start by briefly pointing out that Saudi's criminalization of homosexuality requires 4 eyewitnesses to the actual sexual act, which some scholars might characterize as a strong official condemnation, but limiting enforcement to near-zero (a similar logical debate surrounds plural marriage, where some...
Gay American here who has worked in Saudi and across MENA and have grad degrees in the field. This is all-around terrible and I am a strong supporter of decriminalization of homosexuality. I'll start by briefly pointing out that Saudi's criminalization of homosexuality requires 4 eyewitnesses to the actual sexual act, which some scholars might characterize as a strong official condemnation, but limiting enforcement to near-zero (a similar logical debate surrounds plural marriage, where some argue that the Quranic requirement that a man treat all wives exactly equally in the marriage, since it is pretty much all but impossible, is in fact a BAN on plural marriage rather than a license to do so). In fact, Saudi executes people using this law relatively rarely. You're more likely to die in the US in a hate crime than to be executed for sodomy in Saudi. But - as many have noted, it does create a valid fear in a different cultural context than ours. Family is supremely important, and the severance of those ties in that context can be devastating and irrevocably change a person. And for me at least, I do wear a false ring and have photos with my "wife in America" to keep everyone feeling comfortable and not cause any offense. While I understand and respect decisions to not travel places based on laws like these, I personally believe that building the bridges can be more effective. Plus, I already have enough no-go zones in parts of the US where I can't take the risk that a hospital will turn me away at the door for having a husband.
Things don’t need to be proven “beyond a reasonable doubt” in civil court
You have used specific inaccurate legal language. It’s a civil lawsuit, the standard is not ‘beyond reasonable doubt’, it is ‘preponderance of evidence’ - they have a case. Shame on Lufthansa
I obviously sympathise with the couple, but knowing the dangers it was a very risky move under the circumstances and unfortunately it massively backfires. Even if the airline is owned by a foreign carrier based in a country which has more progressive laws, you can't unfortunately rely on that at an out station or for the staff working for them at an out station to uphold those values especially if they're local.
I'm gay. The couple's beef should be with Saudi Arabia. Why live in a country with such harsh penalties? Hey, when I'm a guest in another country, I try to follow their rules. If I don't like their rules, I don't visit.
Proving the diseases and losses being as a result of this case is difficult to prove. I think other details in this case are also difficult to prove. How can he prove that the Saudi government found out? How can he prove that the employee purposely did it? etc. I think the person should obtain his American citizen sooner than later if he is that concerned about his status. This being said, I think the...
Proving the diseases and losses being as a result of this case is difficult to prove. I think other details in this case are also difficult to prove. How can he prove that the Saudi government found out? How can he prove that the employee purposely did it? etc. I think the person should obtain his American citizen sooner than later if he is that concerned about his status. This being said, I think the situation is partly their fault. They should have flown to a third destination and board another flight where it would or could be less of a problem.
It seems to be they have no one else to blame but themselves. They want to live their gay lifestyle in secret and want everyone else to cover for them. While it is none of my business, take responsibility for your own actions and stop blaming everyone else for your troubles.
All I know about pulmonary fibrosis is what I learn from Wikipedia. "But in most cases the cause is unknown (idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis)." Is it triggered or aggravated by stress? A question for the jury, not for the commentariat.
"Beyond a reasonable doubt," of course, is not the standard of proof in a civil case. But Ben proves beyond a reasonable doubt his claim that he is not a lawyer.
We have to respect everyone's culture even if we find it abhorrent. Surely there are aspects of culture like female genital mutilation and child brides in certain countries and religions that normal people consider unacceptable, but who are we to judge? We are not supposed to discriminate based on culture or religion, right?
Saudi Arabia has a standard that they codified into their law. If you don't like it, don't go there.
Americans/Europeans will say this when abroad, but back home, they will criticize even a small aspect of the freest, most democratic, most open societies in history.
Now why would someone so intelligent make such a f.ckup choice.
Didn't do any harm, but how do you feel dumbshit.
Well, my mother has pulmonary fibrosis, never smoked a day in her life. She is now on the lung transplant list waiting as I type this. I think this asshole saying the stress from the incident is to blame is utter bullshit.
The fact that this couple chose to -- and was ABLE to -- live in Saudi Arabia for decades in a committed gay relationship indicates there's considerably more nuance around the issue than I would have thought.
Also, the claim of developing pulmonary fibrosis from stress detracts from the credibility other parts of the story.
Outside of those two things, this is another "he said / he said" story about the "demeanor" of the Lufthansa...
The fact that this couple chose to -- and was ABLE to -- live in Saudi Arabia for decades in a committed gay relationship indicates there's considerably more nuance around the issue than I would have thought.
Also, the claim of developing pulmonary fibrosis from stress detracts from the credibility other parts of the story.
Outside of those two things, this is another "he said / he said" story about the "demeanor" of the Lufthansa rep and is missing most of the salient factual information about how the Saudi database got updated with the marriage status -- was it from a required field on the airline's manifest (no fault by the airline, or anyone) or by a voluntary disclosure outside of required reporting (possible fault).
I can't lie. This is an unfortunate incident, but you have to respect the laws of the country where it happened. It may have been Lufthansa, but whoever was on the ground was very likely operating under Saudi social constructs and is legally backed by the Saudi system. Lufthansa is simply complying with their legal obligations for flying to Saudi, and they are compelled to report illegal activities if it involves their citizen. If a...
I can't lie. This is an unfortunate incident, but you have to respect the laws of the country where it happened. It may have been Lufthansa, but whoever was on the ground was very likely operating under Saudi social constructs and is legally backed by the Saudi system. Lufthansa is simply complying with their legal obligations for flying to Saudi, and they are compelled to report illegal activities if it involves their citizen. If a dual citizen presents their foreign passport at check in, the airline is usually legally covered for reporting someone who broke the law. The same logic applies here.
Not to excuse this in any way, but the couple should have flown to a country where they could travel visa free (Turkey, Jordan, Morocco, Thailand), and then flown to the US from there. I realize the date is in the covid area where countries required entry permits, but Turkey was definitely open by that time.
One observation about your burden-of-proof statement. In a civil case such as this one, the burden of proof isn't "beyond a reasonable doubt" but "a preponderance of evidence." I do believe the plaintiffs could prevail under that level scrutiny.
Why aren't you providing the manager name or his linked in profile?
He likes exposure- he should be exposed.
The only way to make sure this doesn't happen is to publicize it and make sure employees know we're watching.
Ben already must avoid traveling to Egypt because of his reputation at Cairo Airport. Do you want him to get banned from KSA? His love of EK First requires him to fly through KSA airspace annually.
Poor guys. It's always difficult for us in travel. I always plan my route carefully. We often have to use those countries as hubs.
We keep our heads down and don't travel through with rainbow t shirts.
But during covid, it became quite apparent that LGBT do not have equality.
We had to do 15 days quarantine in separate rooms in Thailand. Cost us double. However, it did highlight this to the...
Poor guys. It's always difficult for us in travel. I always plan my route carefully. We often have to use those countries as hubs.
We keep our heads down and don't travel through with rainbow t shirts.
But during covid, it became quite apparent that LGBT do not have equality.
We had to do 15 days quarantine in separate rooms in Thailand. Cost us double. However, it did highlight this to the Thai government and they now recognize gay marriage. I don't think Saudi ever will.
It's worth noting for LGBT that Jordan is a safe hub. Not that I feel unsafe in other hubs but there is always that niggle that you can be pulled.out of the line for being gay. I had an experience in Qatar lounge that terrified me... however, the penguins marched over to me and asked me to cut a cake for international women's day.
I lived in Jeddah for two years working as a nurse.
Being homosexual per se is not breaking any law in Saudi Arabia.
Saudi's laws are sharia - basically derived from religious texts. There are laws against 'illicit' or 'immoral' sexual acts which includes sex between men (or women with women), sex before marriage etc etc. The courts have wide discretion as the interpretation of 'illicit' and 'immoral' can vary widely.
Even gay marriage...
I lived in Jeddah for two years working as a nurse.
Being homosexual per se is not breaking any law in Saudi Arabia.
Saudi's laws are sharia - basically derived from religious texts. There are laws against 'illicit' or 'immoral' sexual acts which includes sex between men (or women with women), sex before marriage etc etc. The courts have wide discretion as the interpretation of 'illicit' and 'immoral' can vary widely.
Even gay marriage - it is not mentioned anywhere in Saudi law. There is no explicit law against it, again, only the sexual acts.
One of the great ironies - as a gay westerner, Saudi Arabia is one of the easiest places in the world to get laid. You just have to go to one of the gyms in the large hotels in Riyadh or Jeddah - walk into the steam room and it's all going on. There is almost a tolerance for 'men amusing themselves with other men' until they are married.
I made several 'good friends' with Saudi guys that would 'play' with other guys. It was quite sad, I would always ask them if they are not worried about getting caught by the authorities? The answer was usually 'no, the authorities don't really care'. However, being identified as 'gay' was a totally different story, more so in regards to their family than the authorities. They become outcasts and basically erased by their entire extended families.
How is it for hetero guys? Lol
The legal standard for civil cases is preponderance of the evidence (i.e., more likely than not), not "beyond a reasonable doubt."
I don't think it would win. The check in agents are contracted to a Saudi company called 'Saudi Ground Services' so are therefore not a western entity. The complaint is then negligence, blaming Lufthansa for contracting to a company that did not break the law in order to hide the information from local authorities. Doesn't sound like a winning argument because the contracted company has no obligation to hide information that is 'illegal' (In the...
I don't think it would win. The check in agents are contracted to a Saudi company called 'Saudi Ground Services' so are therefore not a western entity. The complaint is then negligence, blaming Lufthansa for contracting to a company that did not break the law in order to hide the information from local authorities. Doesn't sound like a winning argument because the contracted company has no obligation to hide information that is 'illegal' (In the same way a fraudulent visa/passport isn't protected by privacy acts) and Lufthansa isn't negligent for choosing a company that follows Saudi law in Saudi Arabia.
It shouldn’t matter if someone is gay or normal. As long as you’re not hurting anyone, you should be allowed to choose the lifestyle you want.
It's "homosexual or heterosexual," not "gay or normal." And it's not a "lifestyle" anymore than being attracted to the opposite sex is a lifestyle.
Feel free to tell that to the Saudi government, among others. I cheer you on!
Are we out here to promote breaking the law? Sounds like this gay couple has been exposed and they're not facing the consequences for the misdeeds.
The law is the law. No one is above the law.
OK. I get it. You are straight and a bigot. Have a sad life. And no US 261 for you.
I am a non-practicing homosexual who lives in Riyadh.
When they legalize this region has many excellent boys available to sodomize, but for now it's still against the law insha’Allah.
When laws are unjust then yes, people are advocating breaking the laws.
If you are gay and get married and you live in a country where it is illegal you put yourself at risk! Many countries give gay men asylum in situations like these. Unfortunately, they should have expanded something like this may happen. They could have waited to travel! Now, if it can be proven that LH leaked the information they are liable! Also, Lufthansa should have exchanged both deputy and station manager! They employ and...
If you are gay and get married and you live in a country where it is illegal you put yourself at risk! Many countries give gay men asylum in situations like these. Unfortunately, they should have expanded something like this may happen. They could have waited to travel! Now, if it can be proven that LH leaked the information they are liable! Also, Lufthansa should have exchanged both deputy and station manager! They employ and promote freedom so all of their employees should promote that too! I am not a doctor neither so not sure if “that” stress could have caused the illness but I think living in Saudi with the fear of being discovered should a lot more stressful than not seeing you family anymore who could easily travel to see them. Reading this I don’t have the impression this is a poor family who can’t afford to pay for a flight ticket! Most probably it is his family who wants nothing to do with him and that is not LH fault!
I feel deep sympathy for the passenger, but they were careless. Not the airline's fault.
The passenger knowingly broke the local laws (whether or not I agree with those rules is besides the point), went to an airport in said country to board a flight that according to the local regulations he should not be allowed to fly to. Of course the station manager will make a copy of the marriage certificate - he has...
I feel deep sympathy for the passenger, but they were careless. Not the airline's fault.
The passenger knowingly broke the local laws (whether or not I agree with those rules is besides the point), went to an airport in said country to board a flight that according to the local regulations he should not be allowed to fly to. Of course the station manager will make a copy of the marriage certificate - he has to justify why he let the passenger board the flight in case the passenger got rejected entry in the US. The station manager would face consequences if he hadn't made a copy.
Taking an international flight is not only a matter between the passenger and airline - there are many agencies involved along the way from immigration, police, national security agencies, and during Covid likely also health authorities.
Did the passenger not worry about immigration? When passing through immigration control in Saudi, the officer might have questioned how the passenger is allowed to fly to the US under current Covid restrictions, and demanded the airline to justify.
As I said, I fully sympathize with the passenger, but scapegoating the airline is not fair. The passenger was careless and got caught.
What? How did you come to the conclusion that passenger broke any laws or was not allowed to fly according to the local regulations? They have fulfilled the conditions for leaving Saudi Arabia.
And while anything can happen in dictatorships with no rule of law, it is absolutely not common for immigration officers of one country questioning whether the passenger is in possession of valid travel documents for the next. It's not like they're trained...
What? How did you come to the conclusion that passenger broke any laws or was not allowed to fly according to the local regulations? They have fulfilled the conditions for leaving Saudi Arabia.
And while anything can happen in dictatorships with no rule of law, it is absolutely not common for immigration officers of one country questioning whether the passenger is in possession of valid travel documents for the next. It's not like they're trained on every country on the planet. The only thing that immigration normally cares about is whether you fulfil their own entry/exit conditions, which the passenger in question did. The same also happened to you, it wasn't immigration that triggered the problem because the immigration never cared. It was the airline which, unlike immigration, checks your eligibility.
Simple. According to a Saudi official, the passenger would not have been eligible to fly to the US. When you fly internationally, do you really think the data stays between you and the airline?
Preposterous argument, Michalis. You miss the egregious behavior and rationalize it with some watered down sophist nonsense
Patronizing hypocrites. The same situation would occur if a Muslim, Orthodox Jewish, or Mormon man lied on an immigration declaration to get his 2nd/3rd wife on a flight knowing those marriages are overwhelmingly illegal in Western countries, just like a gay union is not countenanced in KSA and many other places. Bigamy is a felony in most US jurisdictions, misdemeanor in some...in America, it's illegal to take a second or third wife, yet legal to...
Patronizing hypocrites. The same situation would occur if a Muslim, Orthodox Jewish, or Mormon man lied on an immigration declaration to get his 2nd/3rd wife on a flight knowing those marriages are overwhelmingly illegal in Western countries, just like a gay union is not countenanced in KSA and many other places. Bigamy is a felony in most US jurisdictions, misdemeanor in some...in America, it's illegal to take a second or third wife, yet legal to marry the same gender or have an affair/cohabitate. Yes, Western values of "equality"...glass house, meet stone.
These two gambled on trying to game the system living a foolish lie knowing the risks, and it backfired spectacularly. I don't agree with the agent's unprofessionalism, but he had no duty to keep this discreet, where it's legally and socially objectionable.
Don't like it, do like Harry and Meagan, and stay in California.
This is exactly how I feel too. The way I see it if a dual citizen that isn't allowed foreign nationality presents their 'disallowed' passport at check-in inside the country that disallows it, it's not the airlines fault for reporting them to the immigration office. They have to agree to follow the laws of the country they fly to and sometimes are obligated to or face a fine.
The same logic applies here, you're...
This is exactly how I feel too. The way I see it if a dual citizen that isn't allowed foreign nationality presents their 'disallowed' passport at check-in inside the country that disallows it, it's not the airlines fault for reporting them to the immigration office. They have to agree to follow the laws of the country they fly to and sometimes are obligated to or face a fine.
The same logic applies here, you're blaming the airline for following the law of the country and following their obligations they have towards the government. You may be a passenger, but airlines still have a duty to ensure your documentation does not infringe on local laws.
Let’s reverse the scenario - should the American staff working at the Saudia Airlines check-in counter at JFK be trained in Saudi values? And force female passengers to cover?
1. What did they expect when dealing with Lufthansa (meticulous German airline that follows any rule, no mater what).
2. What did they expect, when dealing with local staff (most probably Saudi) at Riyadh Airport... They should have know better.
3. What did they expect, while living in Saudi Arabia, something was bound (and did) happen. The Saudi guy was lucky to get the hell out of there.
4. I won't go...
1. What did they expect when dealing with Lufthansa (meticulous German airline that follows any rule, no mater what).
2. What did they expect, when dealing with local staff (most probably Saudi) at Riyadh Airport... They should have know better.
3. What did they expect, while living in Saudi Arabia, something was bound (and did) happen. The Saudi guy was lucky to get the hell out of there.
4. I won't go into the horror stories about gay people in Saudi... just a hint, steer clear of the Kingdom.
"Meticulous German airline that follows any rule, no matter what": absolutely hilarious!!
Just following orders
So I'm supposed to rally in support of someone who is caught breaking the laws of another country? My opinion of the law is irrelevant. Not my country. You want to live there in peace, follow the laws. Real simple.
That’s one of the most garbage opinions. I’ve read in a very long time. It’s against the law for this person to be who they are. Such a law is utterly absurd and counter to human decency. Would you make the same argument about Hitler rounding up Jews and executing them in concentration camps?
The above response covers it well, but I’d also point out that I can bet “My opinion of the law is irrelevant” suddenly magically stops applying when it comes to Presidents with multiple convictions for felony.
This couple lived in Saudi for 30 years, this was an inevitable outcome. You don't live in Singapore then cry foul when they throw the book at you over theft. You signed up for that for living there. I'd normally feel sympathy for tourists that are none the wiser, but these people knew what they were doing isn't acceptable in the country and continued to still live there.
Exactly. If I had three wives living in the United States, it would be the same situation. Illegal on multiple counts. A gay couple is not and never will be openly acceptable in the East just like certain marriages are not accepted in the West. Don't like it, don't live there, and don't break the law. Saudi has the right to enforce their values, no matter how much hypocritical Westerners dislike it.
You win the "quick, throw the Hitler card" award. To compare a country's laws based on their determination of morality with the murder and ethnic cleansing acts of a fascist is a lazy, sophomoric argument. Sad that you see no difference in the two. But in your mind I guess that justifies vitriol and acts of violence to all those you perceive as Hitler lovers.
It was against the law to help Jewish people escape Nazi Germany at one point as well.
So many adverse stories about Lufthansa. How are you a fan of theirs, Ben?
its part of his obsession with Lufthansa... Also he adores the ME3, supported by rapidly anti gay regimes in the Middle East, yet he give them money and flies them.
With DL announcing flights to Riyadh - are they going to ban gay flight attendants from working the route?
And yet some stupid Americans believe the US is the worst country in the world. Ignorants who should be living in these types of countries including communist countries so that they can appreciate the US.
I’d say current US Govt leaders(sic) are working hard to be the worst in terms of individual freedom and liberty along with justice for all
There’s nothing currently appealing in the US with a Christian nationalist government. They just announced a restriction on 7500 refugees with priority to white South Africans and it’s ok to demolish part of the White House and spend $300 million on a ball room. That says it all.
It's hard to take 7500 'refugees' seriously when every single person that is coming for economic reasons files a refugee claim. The system is abused to the detriment of people legitimately facing hardship.
Yes, it is OK for a President to remodel the White House. You can like or not like the changes. If those changes are done with private monies, why would I care if it's $300 or $300 million. I don't respect Trump and don't like him. But, I'll focus my criticisms for far more important issues. If you serve me a spoiled steak, I'll complain about that, not the fact you overcooked it.
Totally correct 100%, most Americans who say that haven't been abroad and those that have and still say that forget that they are all about "following rules and other cultures" once abroad (even in authoritarian, non-democratic nations) but back home get riled up at even small stuff, forgetting America is still the "freest" nation on earth and allows the freedoms of free speech/press/religion/assembly/petition at a level European nations don't...and a President who takes all kinds...
Totally correct 100%, most Americans who say that haven't been abroad and those that have and still say that forget that they are all about "following rules and other cultures" once abroad (even in authoritarian, non-democratic nations) but back home get riled up at even small stuff, forgetting America is still the "freest" nation on earth and allows the freedoms of free speech/press/religion/assembly/petition at a level European nations don't...and a President who takes all kinds of questions daily, from all sorts of media outlets (despite if we disagree with him), even when he's on Air Force One! Who else does that?
I respectfully disagree with most comments here. My guess is that Saudi law eoyehr explicitly or implicitly required the manager to notify the authorities. And so he just did his job whether he was happy about it or not.
Despite that, I do feel bad for the Saudi passenger. But he did also have 30 years to plan for a situation in which he'd be outed. Why did he live illegally in his country? Why not move to the US or elsewhere with his spouse?
Saudi isn't exactly a country with rule of law in anything like the western sense. It only recently actually started writing down what its laws are. Until super recently, the "law" of Saudi Arabia was just Islamic religious law (Sharia), not anything that was actually written down in a book you could look up.
So your assumption that there was some clearly defined procedure or rule that was being followed by Lufthansa employee in...
Saudi isn't exactly a country with rule of law in anything like the western sense. It only recently actually started writing down what its laws are. Until super recently, the "law" of Saudi Arabia was just Islamic religious law (Sharia), not anything that was actually written down in a book you could look up.
So your assumption that there was some clearly defined procedure or rule that was being followed by Lufthansa employee in 2021 is pretty dubious. Saudi didn't codify its family law until 2022! Simply put, Saudi definitely isn't Germany.
Also, the plaintiffs said they flew a German airline because they expected that their privacy would be more respected than by a Saudi or other Gulf airline. (A reasonable assumption given the EU's very strong privacy laws.) The disclosure of their marital status was relevant only to the US authorities, not the Saudis. And your "guess" that there was an "implicit" requirement to disclose that to the local authorities is total speculation.
Perhaps. But you are just speculating too about what is relevant to the Saudis and what needs to be disclosed to them. My point is that most comments here are based on speculation. Just because everyone is speculating in one direction, doesn’t make it the [legally or otherwise] correct direction.
Glad both the US and SA are shooting for life in 1266
Yes! Love the sourcasm!
The couple, who are gay and can live in the US instead, chose to live in a country that is open to killing them if the secret ever gets out. I am 100% pro gay marriage, but I actually don't think the airline is to blame here. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
I mean if it's true that the Saudi Lufthansa employee went rogue and disclosed their marital status to the Saudi authorities when there was no requirement for him to do so (and they didn't appear to be: it was the US, not Saudi, that needed to know their marital status), then I absolutely think Lufthansa is to blame. Or, I certainly wouldn't want to have to defend that to a jury! (Note that if this...
I mean if it's true that the Saudi Lufthansa employee went rogue and disclosed their marital status to the Saudi authorities when there was no requirement for him to do so (and they didn't appear to be: it was the US, not Saudi, that needed to know their marital status), then I absolutely think Lufthansa is to blame. Or, I certainly wouldn't want to have to defend that to a jury! (Note that if this case goes to trial, it will be in San Francisco, not exactly the best venue for Lufthansa in a case like this.)
PS - If they were clever, and they were not... They would have flown out to a third country, and at THAT country, transferred to a flight to the US (like Amsterdam, London, etc) and dealt with the COVID entry requirements there (marriage to a US Citizen).
I’m all for letting people do as they please, but breaking a law, regardless of whether you believe in that law or not, is illegal. The right thing to do was to leave KSA as that is a logical solution.
Actions have consequences and you cannot shame a government because you don’t agree with their laws. You simply don’t visit or go to that country. Simple as that.
Oh, one cannot contract pulmonary...
I’m all for letting people do as they please, but breaking a law, regardless of whether you believe in that law or not, is illegal. The right thing to do was to leave KSA as that is a logical solution.
Actions have consequences and you cannot shame a government because you don’t agree with their laws. You simply don’t visit or go to that country. Simple as that.
Oh, one cannot contract pulmonary fibrosis from stress. It’s not medically possible. I truly believe these fellas are just trying to find a money grab due to the situation. Lufthansa did all the right things requiring proof for travel and it can never be proven they did anything wrong. Which they actually didn’t.
You may not like this post, but it’s fact.
Exactly, this is a frivolous lawsuit but I suppose that the nature of the American legal system incentivises that sort of thing in pursuit of fat settlements...
@Rhino(plasty) "You may not like this post, but it’s fact."
You say "I truly believe..." and then refer to that as fact? You assert Lufthansa "did all the right things," which is an opinion since there's no real list of 'things" but , of course you assert that as fact. Then you commit the cardinal sin of OHMYGOD a SENTENCE FRAGMENT as if "Which they actually didn't" is a sentence.
Yes, your post is...
@Rhino(plasty) "You may not like this post, but it’s fact."
You say "I truly believe..." and then refer to that as fact? You assert Lufthansa "did all the right things," which is an opinion since there's no real list of 'things" but , of course you assert that as fact. Then you commit the cardinal sin of OHMYGOD a SENTENCE FRAGMENT as if "Which they actually didn't" is a sentence.
Yes, your post is a fact. You did indeed make a post. Yes, I don't like your post, because nothing you say is factual!
Some people don’t have that option. That’s a very first world point of view. Would you say the same thing to interracial couples in the US who lived in shadows for decades due to their partnership being illegal? Just because it’s illegal doesn’t mean it’s right.
That’s a garbage opinion rhino. So you’re against human rights violations if they’re codified in the law?
You have to remember that the legal action is against the airline, not against KSA. Irrespective of the letter of the law, the claimants put airport staff in a difficult position and it's not surprising that they ran into issues. Whether or not any individual employees could have handled this better, they had never been likely to be capable of reconciling the complexities of family relationships between different legal systems.
I just don’t understand how his status in the KSA-database can be “married” if gay-marriage does not exist in that country.
Correct. It’s not recognised
Lufthansa are a global airline their employees must share their values this is horrific my heart bleeds for the couple involved and hope they can find some peace after such an ordeal.
The Saudi citizen also claims to have developed pulmonary fibrosis, a terminal illness, which he claims is a result of the stress from the incident.
>>>>>not likely
Yeah, that does seem unlikely. He'll have a very tough time convincing anyone of that.
For a civil case it does not need to be proven "beyond a reasonable doubt." That is a criminal standard. Only a preponderance of the evidence standard applies here which is a 51%+ chance that they were liable.
I don't think it would win. The check in agents are contracted to a Saudi company called 'Saudi Ground Services' so are therefore not a western entity. The complaint is then negligence, blaming Lufthansa for contracting to a company that did not break the law in order to hide the information from local authorities. Doesn't sound like a winning argument because the contracted company has no obligation to hide information that is 'illegal' (In the...
I don't think it would win. The check in agents are contracted to a Saudi company called 'Saudi Ground Services' so are therefore not a western entity. The complaint is then negligence, blaming Lufthansa for contracting to a company that did not break the law in order to hide the information from local authorities. Doesn't sound like a winning argument because the contracted company has no obligation to hide information that is 'illegal' (In the same way a fraudulent visa/passport isn't protected by privacy acts) and Lufthansa isn't negligent for choosing a company that follows Saudi law in Saudi Arabia.
Don’t know about you, but I feel that we may have just witnessed the Saudi government recognizing a same-sex marriage for the first time ever.
Long shot, but a girl can dream.
Did you say the Saudi citizen was fearful of fines, imprisonment, or execution and this has never returned home?
Nah I don’t believe this story for a minute.
How could Saudia Arabia, Mecca of “the state religion of peace,” ever do such a thing to a discreet upstanding citizen?
All “the religion of peace” does is cut of the extremities of gays until they are dead, or just throws the gays off tallest buildings...
Did you say the Saudi citizen was fearful of fines, imprisonment, or execution and this has never returned home?
Nah I don’t believe this story for a minute.
How could Saudia Arabia, Mecca of “the state religion of peace,” ever do such a thing to a discreet upstanding citizen?
All “the religion of peace” does is cut of the extremities of gays until they are dead, or just throws the gays off tallest buildings until the gays are dead if the gays are not stoned to death in either manner first.
How can any of you live with yourself who travel or work or support any Muslim Airlines is what I ask with this kind of barbarism these types of governments believe in.
I agree with you on not traveling to unfriendly countries with the exception of flying solo EK & QR without leaving the airports while flying EY and enjoying the Louvre in Abu Dhabi
This is my risk appetite
If you enjoyed the Louvre, Doha has both a museum of Islamic Art and the Qatar National museum which are extraordinary cultural venues and contain important cultural patrimony. Perhaps surprisingly, the Qatar national library (by Dutch architect Rem Koolhaus) is also well worth a visit.
I felt safe in Doha and enjoyed the experience — though as you rightly wrote, each of us has a different risk appetite. I’m very happy to visit any number...
If you enjoyed the Louvre, Doha has both a museum of Islamic Art and the Qatar National museum which are extraordinary cultural venues and contain important cultural patrimony. Perhaps surprisingly, the Qatar national library (by Dutch architect Rem Koolhaus) is also well worth a visit.
I felt safe in Doha and enjoyed the experience — though as you rightly wrote, each of us has a different risk appetite. I’m very happy to visit any number of Islamic countries (eg, Morocco, Tunisia), but wouldn’t relish the idea of a trip to KSA. In fairness, I also wouldn’t happily visit the more traditional Christian US states (Matthew Shepherd, anyone?).
There is a very simple reason that the Saudis knew about it.....
All airline passenger data has to be transmitted to the government. The USA requires it....Canada requires it.....UK requires it.....EU requires it. So there is a regulatory requirement to transmit this also in Saudi Arabia.
I think the demeanor of the agent is deplorable....and yes better Customer Service could have been provided. But I think this isnt going to go anywhere as LH...
There is a very simple reason that the Saudis knew about it.....
All airline passenger data has to be transmitted to the government. The USA requires it....Canada requires it.....UK requires it.....EU requires it. So there is a regulatory requirement to transmit this also in Saudi Arabia.
I think the demeanor of the agent is deplorable....and yes better Customer Service could have been provided. But I think this isnt going to go anywhere as LH can just point to a regulatory requirement to transmit all documentation and visa information to the government in the name of "safety".....
Im gay .... i get the fear....but also i would have recommended to travel to a third country first where you didnt need to upload any relationship information for entry requirements.....me and my partner travel a lot....but we also are "good buddies" a lot of the time to keep other records private to airline reservation systems.
To travel to Which third country during covid?
@Klaus_S , they were travelling l in May 2021, I had no issues visiting Barcelona around Easter of that year (figured that it was an once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to have a look without having to battle against thousands of fellow tourists).
Its not ALL data... i am the one at the counter who scans your passport for the APIS data (advanced passenger info system) and marital status is not included. Name, sex, date of birth, type of document, expiry, issuing country, country of residence, emergency contact and in case of the US of A, also the address where you will be staying. Thats it. The leak happened elswhere.
EU does not require your marital status to be transmitted, lol, it's not even collected on a regular basis. Currently only the basis PNR data are collected, with ETIAS going live in few months, API will be added but that doesn't include marital status either.
This is hardly surprising. Stories like this always attract comments about how easy hooking up is in these goat-herder countries, but fail to acknowledge that actually living there as a same-sex couple is fraught with danger. All it takes is one psychotically fanatical zealot to unravel your entire life.
Why LGB people keep visiting these horrible places, flying with their airlines, and staying in their hotels and resorts is beyond my comprehension.
What's even worse how LGB goes and protests for these people and act like they are in some kind of human rights struggle together. Make it make sense.
I'd argue that it's the LGBTQIA+ crowd who beclown themselves with nonsense like "Queers for Palestine". LGB is something altogether different, and is not a political or identity movement. The Alphabet People "Queers" do not represent us.
It really is remarkable and ironic, the stories about Saudi being a world class gay hookup country. Fascinating stuff.
Just confirms to me that I have not heard anything good out of Saudi Arabia for all the years I've been alive, to make me interested in going there, or passing through there. Or Dubai, either.
Oh, but their shiny new airline! Their fantastic new resorts!
It's a fkn dump. The only reason Westerners go there is to make money and then get out as soon as they've made their pile. Same goes for the UAE. Why any wealthy person seeking to reduce their tax burden would choose to live in Dubai instead of somewhere like Italy or Monaco is a complete mystery to me.
I am a man married to a man from the Middle East, and I have had to be extremely careful never to let it be known that we’re married in countries where penalties are harsh.
A better option is to fly to a third country and then travel to your final destination from there.
Don’t trust anyone in the GCC countries with your sexuality. It’s a huge risk there, even if they work for a western company.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work the third country trick out, they were simply asking for trouble.
No idea how any of this will end up, but, I applaud anyone willing to go through the effort of suing a major corporation. Some of you may disagree, but I still like to root for the 'little guy.' Also, this situation doesn't seem like the mere 'mention it on a post-flight survey' kinda thing.
All frivolous lawsuits use the same argument that they're the 'little guy' and deserve to win. So I'm assuming you always support Karens suing corporations?
We are talking about Lufthansa. Given everything that we've heard about Lufthansa, how is this not true? Of course, a jury will decide. But, amongst us girls, come on.
It's time we all got more interested in the subject of "exit controls". Is Lufthansa obliged to report all data in the PNR including staff notes? Is the airline's system entirely accessible to government? It wouldn't surprise me if KSA has full access to everything a check-in desk agent has access to.
Is this the first case of a gay marriage being legalized in Saudi Arabia? If it's in official Saudi government files, then it's legal yeah?
Perhaps media should start saying that Saudi has legalized gay marriage which will embarrass them enough to reverse the Marital notification on the person's documents
Islam Shariah law. Coming soon to NYC courtesy of Mamdani and democrats votes
Yup. I am sure you also forecasted that AOC would bring communism to New York.
Meanwhile, our first family is licking the boots of the middle eastern "royals".
Both of your statements are true.
BS to this BUT xian social nationalism is already in most of the US. Fundamentalist Xian social nationalists (Xian Nazis) demand the Special Right to have government impose their particular religious beliefs on all of us. UnAmerican
I note the lack of proof that LH informed the authorities. I also note that it is extremely difficult to assign blame for a stress related illness.
My take is that Germans, and by extension German businesses are very scrupulous about the letter of the law. The Local manager was trying to absolutely avoid blame for boarding a passenger that might be sent back.
This lawsuit is only at the complaint stage, and the trial court dismissed for technical jurisdictional reasons, which the Court of Appeals overturned. So the plaintiffs never had a chance to engage in discovery to learn more about what happened. Now the case will go back to the trial court, and the plaintiffs will get a chance to gather more evidence through discovery to prove what actually happened, such as through demanding Lufthansa disclose all...
This lawsuit is only at the complaint stage, and the trial court dismissed for technical jurisdictional reasons, which the Court of Appeals overturned. So the plaintiffs never had a chance to engage in discovery to learn more about what happened. Now the case will go back to the trial court, and the plaintiffs will get a chance to gather more evidence through discovery to prove what actually happened, such as through demanding Lufthansa disclose all documents to the plaintiffs about this incident, doing depositions of Lufthansa employees, etc.
It's totally normal for a plaintiff at any early stage of litigation (when just filing a complaint) to not have access to the full facts about the situation. That's what discovery is for. More information will come out as the case proceeds. And, based on the facts alleged in the complaint, it's not a huge leap to assume that Lufthansa disclosed this information to the Saudi government.
I agree the stress-related illness thing seems like a weaker claim for damages (though being uprooted from your home country is no small thing). The forced sale of real estate, and the inability to continue working for a company because you can't safely return to the country where your job was, seem like stronger claims for damages to me.
Something doesn't add up though, if they were legally married in California in 2013, how come the Saudi national didn't have a have a Green Card by 2021, 8 years later? Yes, it's true that KSA doesn't allow dual citizenship, but a Green Card should have been more than sufficient to board the flight without arousing any suspicion.
Perhaps because he didn't need it so he never bothered to apply? Based on the information in the article it seems they didn't live in the US.
It sounds like he got the Green Card after he travelled to the US in 2021. They were living in Saudi, so he had no reason to apply for a Green Card, which you can lose if you don't actually reside in the United States. (It's technically called lawful permanent residency, and to be an LPR, you need to actually make the US your permanent residence.)
Actually, this does add up. You can't hold a green card if you live outside of the United States. This couple lived in Saudi Arabia.
Any absence of more than a year is more or less an automatic revocation of the green card, and absences of more than 6 months trigger a review by CBP.
"...trigger a review by CBP"...who will then beat you, break your ribs, shoot you in the face with a pepper ball, and disappear you to a gulag in El Salvador or South Sudan (and soon to be one of the US concentration camps currently being built by the orange baboon and his Nazi sympathizers and enablers).
If one wants to be mistreated, abused, or tortured, no need to go to Saudi Arabia.
The burden of proof for a civil case is “preponderance of evidence” ie, “more likely than not,” which is a lower burden than the “beyond a reasonable doubt” burden of proof for a criminal matter.
Also "on the balance of probabilities".
I don't think it would win. The check in agents are contracted to a Saudi company called 'Saudi Ground Services' so are therefore not an western entity. The complaint is then negligence, blaming Lufthansa for contracting to a company that did not break the law in order to hide the information from local authorities. Doesn't sound like a winning argument because the contracted company has no obligation to hide information that is 'illegal' (In the...
I don't think it would win. The check in agents are contracted to a Saudi company called 'Saudi Ground Services' so are therefore not an western entity. The complaint is then negligence, blaming Lufthansa for contracting to a company that did not break the law in order to hide the information from local authorities. Doesn't sound like a winning argument because the contracted company has no obligation to hide information that is 'illegal' (In the same way a fraudulent visa/passport isn't protected by privacy acts) and Lufthansa isn't negligent for choosing a company that follows Saudi law in Saudi Arabia.
"The deputy station manager reportedly became loud and hostile, declaring loudly that he could not believe they were married. Even after presenting the marriage certificate, the manager continued to publicly demean and question the relationship."
What a gross situation. The pulmonary fibrosis part is going to be extreeeeeeeemely difficult to prove, but assuming the rest of the facts as laid out are true, Lufthansa really crapped the bed with this one, irrespective of what country...
"The deputy station manager reportedly became loud and hostile, declaring loudly that he could not believe they were married. Even after presenting the marriage certificate, the manager continued to publicly demean and question the relationship."
What a gross situation. The pulmonary fibrosis part is going to be extreeeeeeeemely difficult to prove, but assuming the rest of the facts as laid out are true, Lufthansa really crapped the bed with this one, irrespective of what country employed the assholes who were so degrading.
One can only wonder if this is the "Saudi Arabian hospitality" the world can look forward to with the Saudi push to increase tourism. They should certainly get a lot of RWNJs from the USA on cheap package trips.
True story...perhaps Delta or Saudia can start a Boise to Riyadh flight.
"They should certainly get a lot of RWNJs from the USA on cheap package trips."
You think RWNJs are going to go anywhere NEAR a place where there's big scary dark Moo-Slims, who wear wrapped cloth (of any type) on their head?
The kind of people they've been told (every day for 24 years) need to carry a handheld day planner, to schedule all the infidel beheadings that they do every hour?
Maybe it hasn't crossed your mind that 80-90% of global population are straight, and they should be enough to feed the growing KSA tourism industry. KSA surely won't change their laws to accommodate the "odd" 10%. Different countries target different tourists, and different tourists are attracted by different countries.
Saudia Arabia and most of the 'Arabic' world can do as they please, but their values certainly don't fit the wests. I won't ever visit.
I'm with you. I'm a straight, but I'll never travel to or through a country where homosexuality is illegal.
Currently, about 60 countries around the world criminalize consensual same-sex sexual activity, including: Afghanistan, Algeria, Antigua and Barbuda, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Brunei, Burundi, Cameroon, Chad, Comoros, Cook Islands (male only), Egypt, Eritrea, Eswatini, Ethiopia, Gambia, Ghana, Grenada, Guinea, Guyana, Iran, Iraq, Jamaica, Kenya, Kiribati, Kuwait, Lebanon, Liberia, Libya, Malawi, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Morocco, Myanmar, Nigeria, Oman, Pakistan, Papua New Guinea, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Solomon Islands, Somalia, South Sudan, Sri Lanka, St. Kitts and...
Currently, about 60 countries around the world criminalize consensual same-sex sexual activity, including: Afghanistan, Algeria, Antigua and Barbuda, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Brunei, Burundi, Cameroon, Chad, Comoros, Cook Islands (male only), Egypt, Eritrea, Eswatini, Ethiopia, Gambia, Ghana, Grenada, Guinea, Guyana, Iran, Iraq, Jamaica, Kenya, Kiribati, Kuwait, Lebanon, Liberia, Libya, Malawi, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Morocco, Myanmar, Nigeria, Oman, Pakistan, Papua New Guinea, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Solomon Islands, Somalia, South Sudan, Sri Lanka, St. Kitts and Nevis, St. Lucia, St. Vincent and the Grenadines, Syria, Tanzania, Togo, Tonga, Trinidad and Tobago (male only), Tunisia, Turkmenistan, Tuvalu, Uganda, United Arab Emirates, Uzbekistan, Yemen, Zambia, and Zimbabwe. While you may not be interested in many of those, you likely have been to or through some.
Yet, while there are unfortunately such laws 'on the books,' let's be real, the likelihood of some of those places 'prosecuting' is minimal. Like, if you speed even 1 mph over the limit, technically, you've committed a crime, but, in most cases, they won't enforce that strictly.
You're correct - half of those countries wouldn't bother launching a prosecution, and the other half are ghastly shtholes that nobody with two functioning synapses visits on purpose.
I admire where you are coming from. As an older gay man, I clearly remember when I was "Illegal" in my own country, the USA.
It's ok though, Delta would never do this on their Riyadh flights!
This is why people bragging about flying to the ME always leaves a bad taste in my mouth
Where's PlaneJane to remind us of Delta's record about who they hire/don't hire in the past...?