There’s quite a bit of drama at the moment between pilots at Southwest Airlines and pilots at United Airlines, following an event that unfolded when a United pilot sat in the jump seat of a Southwest aircraft. I first wrote about this yesterday, but a few more details are starting to emerge, which complicate this story a bit.
In this post:
A United pilot’s flight in a Southwest jump seat
It’s common for pilots to commute to work, in situations where they live in one city, but are based out of another city. They can typically fly just about any airline, and they usually fly in the passenger cabin.
In the event that there are no seats in the cabin, they can also fly in the cockpit jump seat, with the permission of the captain in charge of the flight. This is generally a courtesy that’s extended, though discretion always lies with the captain.
However, due to a recent incident, some Southwest pilots may be hesitant to let pilots from other airlines fly in the jump seat of “their” aircraft. This story was first broken by @xJonNYC, but it’s something union officials have also acknowledged, so it’s clear that there’s something to this.
The story starts off innocently enough:
- A fairly junior United first officer was flying in the jump seat of a Southwest 737 from San Francisco (SFO) to San Diego (SAN)
- The jump seater noticed that the first officer flying (who was also a fairly new hire) was using speed brakes without flaps, and recommended that he may want to add flaps
- The captain told the first officer to add power and cut the speed brakes, and then he deployed flaps
- The captain thanked the pilot in the jump seat for bringing this to their attention; the flight landed without incident, and everyone went on their way
Okay, up until now this story is straightforward enough. In many ways, a pilot in a jump seat is supposed to be an extra set of eyes and ears in the cockpit, and let the pilots flying know if anything is wrong. It sounds like this pilot was simply doing that. She let the pilots know of what she noticed, and the captain acknowledged it.
Unfortunately that’s not the end of the story, though…
How this incident got reported to the FAA
When the Southwest captain of the above flight reported for his next trip, he learned that an incident report had been filed against the crew in relation to the previous trip. Unsurprisingly, the captain took major issue with this, and even got the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association (SWAPA) involved. This has caused a bit of an issue between unions.
Initially it was believed that the pilot in the jump seat was the one who called the FAA, which most people agreed totally crossed the line. After all, she let the pilots on the flight know of her feedback, and that should’ve been the end of it. If she was going to report the incident to any party, it should’ve been through a union channel, rather than the FAA safety hotline.
However, as it turns out, that’s not exactly how things played out. What reportedly happened is that the jump seat pilot told a “trusted friend” about the incident she witnessed. That person then called the FAA safety hotline about the incident, without even letting the jump seating pilot know.
The pilot in the jump seat reportedly didn’t even learn that this had been reported to the FAA until after the Southwest crew found out. So this friend went behind her back to report the crew.
What a terribly messy situation
This incident has caused quite a bit of drama on a couple of levels:
- The name of the pilot in the jump seat is out there, and she’s facing backlash from other pilots
- Some Southwest pilots are now reportedly refusing to allow United pilots into their jump seats, and unions are sending out memos regarding proper etiquette when flying in the jump seat
This situation is really tricky, if you ask me. It sounds like the pilot in the jump seat initially handled this correctly. She observed some things she thought the crew should know about, they made the necessary corrections, and that should have been the end of it.
The issue is that she then shared that information with a “trusted friend,” and that friend in turn reported the incident to the FAA, causing issues for the crew flying.
On the one hand, I feel bad for this pilot, since she’s facing a huge amount of backlash, and it sounds like she personally handled the situation correctly. At the same time, she clearly didn’t exercise good judgment by sharing these details with a “trusted friend,” if the friend ended up reporting this to the FAA without even giving her the courtesy of informing her, or asking if that was okay.
So where exactly does the blame fall here? Is the pilot at fault because she shared these details with someone who obviously couldn’t be trusted? Or is it not at all her fault, since she thought she could trust the person she was sharing the details with?
Bottom line
A United Airlines pilot was recently flying in the jump seat of a Southwest Airlines Boeing 737, while commuting to work. She noticed the first officer not following correct procedures, so she brought it to the attention of the crew.
That was supposed to be the end of it. However, she later shared what happened with a “trusted friend,” and then that person took it upon themselves to reach out to the FAA safety hotline. This annoyed the Southwest captain involved in the incident, and has caused drama between the pilot groups at the two airlines.
I feel bad that this pilot is now being shunned by so many other pilots. At the same time, she clearly didn’t exercise good discretion with who she shared this story with.
What do you make of this incident?
There are too many details omitted from the "story" to really comment.
Having flown both the 727 and the 737, there were times when the flying pilot wanted or had (ATC instructions) to slow the aircraft or descend to a lower altitude rather quickly. In those scenarios, the use of speed brakes at altitude was appropriate. The aircraft may have been above max flap speeds. If that was the case, what's the problem ?
There are too many details omitted from the "story" to really comment.
Having flown both the 727 and the 737, there were times when the flying pilot wanted or had (ATC instructions) to slow the aircraft or descend to a lower altitude rather quickly. In those scenarios, the use of speed brakes at altitude was appropriate. The aircraft may have been above max flap speeds. If that was the case, what's the problem ?
I still don't understand why an FAA Safety Report had to be made. We don't know the scenarion; however, the use of speed brakes, in my view, does NOT constitute a "safety violation".
Speed brakes are routinely used without flaps all the time on Boeing aircraft. So the story, as written, sounds fishy.
Very "fishy".
What’s wrong with using spews brakes without flaps?
The story sounds fishy as written. There is nothing unusual about using speed brakes without flaps in a Boeing aircraft…..
Not buying the “trusted friend” story
Sounds like BS to me. FAA isn’t going to take second hand info from someone who wasn’t privy to what was going on. If FAA investigated, it was because of the jumpseating pilot.
The new DEI world… no common mission, no cooperative spirit, it’s all about “rights” and grievances….
Don’t believe it !!! Then sell out the person who called the FAA. I think you’re putting that story out just to save her ass! This is the new generation!
Don’t you think the two unions already know that she didn’t do it, but they’re not commenting on it because why would they need to? Time for the lynch mob to accept that the story everyone fabricated online wasn’t actually true, and they’ll never tell you the real story because enough damage to innocent people has already happened
This is why we can't have nice things...
Irregardless…one of two conditions exist.
One: she repeated…never let her jump seat.
Two: She has poor judgement, never let her jump seat.
It’s an easy decision.
I can't quite shake the notion that this blowback and the criticism of the United pilot is as strong as it is because it was a woman in the jump seat. Can't prove a counter-factual, but my money is on this not having blown up as much (in terms of social media pile-on, sharing her name and so on) if it had been a guy.
I also hope this doesn't squelch jump seaters from...
I can't quite shake the notion that this blowback and the criticism of the United pilot is as strong as it is because it was a woman in the jump seat. Can't prove a counter-factual, but my money is on this not having blown up as much (in terms of social media pile-on, sharing her name and so on) if it had been a guy.
I also hope this doesn't squelch jump seaters from commenting in future if they see a safety lapse (admittedly this situation in hindsight seems not really a lapse, maybe just a procedure out of sequence).
Fully agreed! How many female airline pilots are there? 5% perhaps. It takes A LOT of strength and skill to work in this field as a female. You have to be better than men to even get in. That’s the real problem here.
This would have never blown up like this if the JS was a man and his wife/GF called the FAA hotline.
The fact that FAA actually even called the Southwest pilots means there was enough substance in the report to warrant asking the pilots for more info.
A male jumpseater would never be dumb enough to pass this on to anyone - period. Also something is wrong with the original story. Speed brakes and flaps are never used together on the 737. At least that's my experience of 15 yrs flying the 737.
Engin:
"Does this mean that every passenger on our aircraft is a "trusted friend" and should report to the authorities whenever we "go around" on the assumption that flight safety has been compromised and the pilots decide at the last minute to correct the situation by going around?"
Of course not! This seems like a very special case I would say. It appears that the situation was alarming enough to warrant such action, but...
Engin:
"Does this mean that every passenger on our aircraft is a "trusted friend" and should report to the authorities whenever we "go around" on the assumption that flight safety has been compromised and the pilots decide at the last minute to correct the situation by going around?"
Of course not! This seems like a very special case I would say. It appears that the situation was alarming enough to warrant such action, but there's probably no way to do it thru the unions because comment was based on hearsay I think
Real story:
"Clean maneuvering speed on a 737 is about 210 knots without any flaps.
Allegedly the pilots were about 20 knots slower than that. That's no good
Going that slow with no flaps extended and the speed brakes deployed puts you at pretty high risk of a stall"
"Assuming what I’ve heard is true, they got down to around 180kts before the jumpseater spoke up, at which point the CA who was...
Real story:
"Clean maneuvering speed on a 737 is about 210 knots without any flaps.
Allegedly the pilots were about 20 knots slower than that. That's no good
Going that slow with no flaps extended and the speed brakes deployed puts you at pretty high risk of a stall"
"Assuming what I’ve heard is true, they got down to around 180kts before the jumpseater spoke up, at which point the CA who was monitoring set the flaps to 5 while telling the new FO who was flying to add power and retract the speed brakes."
"The pilot flying (FO) in this case deployed speed breaks without monitoring the speed. The pilot monitoring (CA) was not adequately monitoring the flight, as they could've also noticed the speed falling below safe speed. The pilots thanked the jumpseater for their intervention. The point is that the jumpseater should not have to intervene - not all flights have jumpseaters, and flights without jumpseaters should not be less safe than those with."
Now this seems to be the most plausible explanation, because otherwise it makes no sense
Even though it‘s obviously not nice having the FAA involved in this issue, we should be over the point we have to hide mistakes in aviation from anyone.
Saw this discussion on another forum, but what is the correct way for the general public to report aviation safety concerns?
If you don't work for the airlines, you won't have access to Pro Stan, unions or anything else.
1) FAA Hotline
2) NASA ASRS
3) NTSB
4) US DOT
5) Social media
6) Smear campaign
7) Doxxing
Airline pilots pledge to adhere to safety as their...
Saw this discussion on another forum, but what is the correct way for the general public to report aviation safety concerns?
If you don't work for the airlines, you won't have access to Pro Stan, unions or anything else.
1) FAA Hotline
2) NASA ASRS
3) NTSB
4) US DOT
5) Social media
6) Smear campaign
7) Doxxing
Airline pilots pledge to adhere to safety as their #1 priority, yet go bonkers when they think someone "ratted them out to the Feds"
As long as everyone provides truthful and factual information and doesn't cover anything up, there shouldn't be any concern to anyone. Why do pilots have such a thin skin?
@Burton
Several sources say the JS didn't actually file the report or even know about it
Try what happens if you ever refuse her on your jumpseat.
I wouldn’t let HER on my jumpseat but wouldn’t penalize all UA pilots. UA ProStan will take care of the situation, no matter how it played out. That’s what ProStan is designed to do.
FAA should come on and say that this was handled professionally. My fear is that this will shut jump seaters up. I had a jump seater help me out on a couple occasions in my 43 year career. Tricks of an unfamiliar airport, catching a frequency change and one time keeping me from a possible violation. It’s called CRM crew resource management. It works and it traps errors. I hope this doesn’t cause us to...
FAA should come on and say that this was handled professionally. My fear is that this will shut jump seaters up. I had a jump seater help me out on a couple occasions in my 43 year career. Tricks of an unfamiliar airport, catching a frequency change and one time keeping me from a possible violation. It’s called CRM crew resource management. It works and it traps errors. I hope this doesn’t cause us to slide backwards to the old days keeping our mouth shut . A jump seater can be a terrific resource .
Amen brother!
The lynch mob has made sure no one will ever speak up again, and FAA/airline/unions need to make a public statement to change it
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/achickinthecockpitb727_jump-seating-united-pilot-causes-drama-at-activity-7194721622405103616-r2oJ
Yeah, speedbrakes without flaps is the way to go. I don’t understand the issue and it purely seems like a technique issue. Some pilots like to use speed brakes to slow down under 10000 (which Boeing recommends), some use flaps for pax comfort… Both work.
Bottom line, jumpseating is a generous offer from the pilots. We don’t need to offer it but we do it out of courtesy. Personally if I knew the jumpseater has...
Yeah, speedbrakes without flaps is the way to go. I don’t understand the issue and it purely seems like a technique issue. Some pilots like to use speed brakes to slow down under 10000 (which Boeing recommends), some use flaps for pax comfort… Both work.
Bottom line, jumpseating is a generous offer from the pilots. We don’t need to offer it but we do it out of courtesy. Personally if I knew the jumpseater has intentions to report me to the FAA despite my generosity, it is a hard NO.
I don’t believe there is a “trusted friend”. If there is a “trusted friend” they should stand up and take full responsibility. Otherwise, this will follow throughout her whole career
JOHN OLIVER WE NEED YOU TO MAKE YOUR NEXT EPISODE ABOUT THIS
Nah, he'd rather troll people with some bird with a funny name.
What in the AF is actually going on here?
Sounds like whole bunch of privileged white dudes who got their collective ego hurt when "female pilot" intervened for safety, and none of you idiots even know what actually happened
Good job completely destroying someone's career and reputation
She's got bigger balls than all you little idiots combined
Feels awesome that in this day and age someone actually helped everyone and you idiots feel like...
What in the AF is actually going on here?
Sounds like whole bunch of privileged white dudes who got their collective ego hurt when "female pilot" intervened for safety, and none of you idiots even know what actually happened
Good job completely destroying someone's career and reputation
She's got bigger balls than all you little idiots combined
Feels awesome that in this day and age someone actually helped everyone and you idiots feel like inadequate little b*tches about it. Makes the flying public feel like you people care about safety and not your egos.. yea right
This is going to make such awesome news on all late night talk shows soon... congrats idiots
You'll all be shocked when she gets a ginormous settlement and so many of you will lose your jobs for being idiots about this
#metoo
Even if on the very slightest chance that you could be correct, do you know how much of an idiot you sound like by your very tone and verbiage ... probably not?
A lot of sarcasm there, but nothing compared to what they've called her on all these forums.
Some kind of massive insecurity going on there
Sarcasm.... just a little bit of sarcasm to lighten the mood
The story isn’t completely accurate. Your duty as a jump seater is safety. If your “flying technique” is desired you will be asked. Using speed brakes vs flaps is not a safety issue. That UA jump seater was out of her lane, and she won’t be on my plane.
Why is everyone still talking about speed brakes, when apparently the info on this site is incorrect and what actually happened was almost stalling the plane low and slow and she saved the day from the jump seat
These keyboard warriors are something else....
My question is 'was this jumpseater even a woman?' I'm tired of the blabby woman trope. The men gossip just as much of not more than women. Plus this issue in no way sounds like violation material.
@777
"My question is 'was this jumpseater even a woman?' "
whaaaaaaaaat???????????
She's an extremely well qualified pilot with almost 10000 hours on PC12, ERJ, 737 and 777
Would you feel better if "she" was a man?
Absolutely, even women I know say they would too, sorry the truth hurts.
WOW... Talk about sexist! You must be fun at parties.
I don't believe the 'told the husband, partner, trusted friend' bs that's just the sisterhood trying to protect one of their own regardless of whether it's right or wrong. Good unions police their own, the sisterhood should do the same
I would think the FAA is fully qualified to determine if the report that was filed by whoever had enough information to determine the next steps, regardless of where it actually came from
Heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend ….. why is the FAA even listening to this ‘report’ 3rd hand from someone who was not even there?
Quite the betrayal of a friendship too. How is it that grownups even get involved in such things?
I never flew the 737 so I don’t know if the offense was serious or trivia. That by way of saying that the jumper should keep his/her Yap shut unless it is a safety issue. if it was a safety issue she was 100% correct as acknowledged by the captain. Her partner/friend should be replaced by her, that is a seriously gross violation of trusted bond. As for the rest of us, get over it, she didn’t do anything wrong, her friends an AH and no harm was done.
The jump seat pilot was looking out for the safety of the passengers, cabin crew and herself. She was right to do so if being aware of a short coming and/or bad decision making or lack thereof or omission by the flying pilots, whatever airlines. She should have let it go afterwards, but she does not deserve the ridiculous backlash, I would have done the same if I had been in her position.
The jump seater was wrong to tell her friend the story without "anonymizing" it by leaving out details such as the name of the other airline, the date, the origin, and/or flight number.
How so? Didn’t they say the ‘friend’ was either in the cabin or smth
I just read the post again, and I didn't see anything about the "friend" having been in the cabin on the same plane as the jump seater (or, for that matter, not having been on the same plane).
>> Third does anyone really believe the story of the poor young lady that wanted to help
40+ with 10 years of aviation experience considered "poor young lady" these days?
You mean to say you need to be an old white man to know how to fly a plane?
Is that really what you are trying to say? Absolutely pathetic
@Steve
Funny you should mention the word stalling... for sure JSr wouldn't need to interfere about something as trivial as speed breaks...
"Second, when I’m on a jumpseat I let the crew work, I speak only to save their back in case they are doing something macroscopically wrong (forgetting lnav from hdg, busting an altitude, STALLING etc), "
@Steve
Please stop it already. The information about "speed brake with no flaps" appears to be NOT TRUE. It appears to be a false rumor being spread around on social media, not what actually happened.
You all should be better than this
"First of all, that doesn’t make any sense, I can use my freaking speed brake with no flaps at all whenever I want, without a jump seater telling me that I need to add flaps"
First of all, that doesn’t make any sense, I can use my freaking speed brake with no flaps at all whenever I want, without a jump seater telling me that I need to add flaps, the only limitation that I have no speed brakes with flaps more than 10 or below 1000ft period
Second, when I’m on a jumpseat I let the crew work, I speak only to save their back in case they...
First of all, that doesn’t make any sense, I can use my freaking speed brake with no flaps at all whenever I want, without a jump seater telling me that I need to add flaps, the only limitation that I have no speed brakes with flaps more than 10 or below 1000ft period
Second, when I’m on a jumpseat I let the crew work, I speak only to save their back in case they are doing something macroscopically wrong (forgetting lnav from hdg, busting an altitude, stalling etc), certainly I’m not gonna tell them how to fly their freaking airplane and it happened to me that I said something, they thanked me and I was glad to help, everyone can make a mistake we are all human beings and whatever happened in the cockpit stays in the cockpit, end of story
Third does anyone really believe the story of the poor young lady that wanted to help but was betrayed by a trusted person???? Really!? Please, please, please….
SHOW SOME RESPECT...
"If these details are even partially true and JSers quick reaction in the cockpit saved the day for the WN crew and we all roasted her publicly for it
Makes us pilots look really professional and good people .. I'm embarred to be a pilot right now"
I question your experience level as a pilot if you think stowing the speed brake was a quick reaction that 'saved the day'... many many...
SHOW SOME RESPECT...
"If these details are even partially true and JSers quick reaction in the cockpit saved the day for the WN crew and we all roasted her publicly for it
Makes us pilots look really professional and good people .. I'm embarred to be a pilot right now"
I question your experience level as a pilot if you think stowing the speed brake was a quick reaction that 'saved the day'... many many barriers here before the day needs saving. You sound like the typical Yahoo news writer.
Ben,
While I appreciate your attempt to amend and correct this story, why even post it in the first place. To get more clicks? I noticed all the pop up ads on here. How much are you getting paid to spread all of this mis and disinformation that you did zero research on, beyond a cut and paste hack job? It is WIDLY full of inaccuracies and you are now subjecting your blog to slander...
Ben,
While I appreciate your attempt to amend and correct this story, why even post it in the first place. To get more clicks? I noticed all the pop up ads on here. How much are you getting paid to spread all of this mis and disinformation that you did zero research on, beyond a cut and paste hack job? It is WIDLY full of inaccuracies and you are now subjecting your blog to slander and libel because you attempt to do some form of journalism but have no way of getting the other side of the story.
I have intimate knowledge of this case. I can assure you:
1. She is NOT a new hire and NOT new to commercial aviation at all.
2. She DID NOT call the FAA. She has proof of that; perhaps she’ll get a chance to tell her side of the story one day and share that but she doesn’t owe that to anybody.
3. There is no jumpstart denials that have occurred at either airline as a result of this. Both airlines knew about the FAA report weeks before she did. They just couldn’t reach out because her name wasn’t known to UA and the SWA side didn’t want be involved in a retaliatory suit. In fact, not one UAL pilot has been denied the jump seat over this or any other event recently. If the pilot is qualified and presents the correct credentials, is polite, they will continue to be accepted onto all SWA jump seats, and versa.
You are part of a social media cabal, a machine, that played a role in absolutely destroying this woman’s life over the past week. She’s been eviscerated, vilified, had her photo, her email, personal data and even home address spread all over the world. She’s faced verbal and physical threats, and been called the most vile names in the English language.
Every pilot involved in this modern day digital lynching should hold their head in shame. You know who you are. You violated the ALPA Code of Ethics and then you sit on your high horse and lecture the reader about ethics? As a male aviator with over 30 years experience, a father to a daughter, a husband, and a son who still supports his mother and assists his disabled sister, I am outraged to see the level of vitriol and hate over something everyone who bothered to opine “heard/ read” on the internet and a majority of it coming from men.
Remember Nick Sandman and how he won $275M from CNN? Has social media not learned anything from that? Take this article down. It’s a joke, it’s offensive in its inaccuracies, and you are profiting from it. You’re exposing your illustrious blog to litigation as well now.
upvote
"To prove prima facie defamation, a plaintiff must show four things: 1) a false statement purporting to be fact; 2) publication or communication of that statement to a third person; 3) fault amounting to at least negligence; and 4) damages, or some harm caused to the reputation of the person or entity who is the subject of the statement."
check check check and check
WOW this is insane
If these details are even partially true and JSers quick reaction in the cockpit saved the day for the WN crew and we all roasted her publicly for it
Makes us pilots look really professional and good people .. I'm embarred to be a pilot right now
try what happens if you deny her JS.. with all the publicity surrounding this you'll be getting an angry call from your chief pilot and HR when you land
LOL being denies jump seat sounds a lot more pleasant than being dragged into a massive defemation lawsuit about this
What might have been OK behavior 40 years ago is not OK these days
IF all this is true, then she needs to speak up and speak up fast. Her name and picture are all over the internet. I've been flying for 40 years and, sometimes when you're new, inexperienced or distracted, you (gasp!) get a bit slow or forget the boards are out - (which is why most SoPs have you leave your hand on the lever). Easy to fix, which they did. She needs to disown her...
IF all this is true, then she needs to speak up and speak up fast. Her name and picture are all over the internet. I've been flying for 40 years and, sometimes when you're new, inexperienced or distracted, you (gasp!) get a bit slow or forget the boards are out - (which is why most SoPs have you leave your hand on the lever). Easy to fix, which they did. She needs to disown her friend and out her/him. Side note, this is highlighting the fact that a large portion of our younger population is entitled and somehow believes that their uneducated, inexperienced opinion and observation of the world around them is is gospel. One thing I've learned over the decades is that just because I think it, doesn't mean it's true. Barring her explanation she won't be riding in my cockpit. All other UAL pilots are welcome.
The Richard Jones’s on this conversation can try and steer this conversation wherever they like, but the line pilots know exactly what happened. And it ain’t going away. She’ll carry this as long as she’s in the industry. Like herpes.
Hopefully, she understands she’s not skating on this. Regardless, of what she does to save herself.
This whole follow up wreaks of someone trying to save herself. Not buying it.
Chris:
That is a very naive even from someone who sounds like a professional on this.
There are hundreds of airline employees from several airlines, union members, and such working to clean up this mess nonstop that people such as yourself have created in the past couple of days. And I'm sure you are not one of them clearly.
All the flight data is tracked through FOQA. Literally every button push. If an excursion is made outside the envelope, the company will know about it and has procedures for additional training etc..
Calling the FAA is just going to create a fire storm.
Chris:
Fair point about the FOQA, but counter argument could be that how would anyone know to look at the FOQA data in the first place if there was no internal ASAP report filed by the SW crew after the flight. We don't know whether the SW crew filed ASAP or not, so that part is pure speculation.
Role of the FAA Hotline is to ensure the safety of the whole aviation industry, and it...
Chris:
Fair point about the FOQA, but counter argument could be that how would anyone know to look at the FOQA data in the first place if there was no internal ASAP report filed by the SW crew after the flight. We don't know whether the SW crew filed ASAP or not, so that part is pure speculation.
Role of the FAA Hotline is to ensure the safety of the whole aviation industry, and it was created for specifically for that reason. And to ensure anonymity of the reporters are maintained at all times. This clearly failed big time in this case.
Also FAA are not the ones calling the pilots, but simply submitting a request to the appropriate parties at the airline in question for additional information about the concern.
After the dust settles on this incident, do you think any pilot or aviation industry member will ever report actual legitimate safety concerns to the FAA hotline if this is how the pilot community responds to such incidents. Shame on you guys!
@Richard
The data is all screened for every flight, events with safety implications are automatically red flagged for follow-up and potential non punitive fact finding investigation sometimes leading to some retraining for the individuals involved. Serious events also automatically involve the airline’s FAA POI (The FAA Inspector charged with overseeing that airline). In fact if the same sorts of events keep popping up in the same places it’s viewed as a great scenario for everyone...
@Richard
The data is all screened for every flight, events with safety implications are automatically red flagged for follow-up and potential non punitive fact finding investigation sometimes leading to some retraining for the individuals involved. Serious events also automatically involve the airline’s FAA POI (The FAA Inspector charged with overseeing that airline). In fact if the same sorts of events keep popping up in the same places it’s viewed as a great scenario for everyone to be presented with in annual recurrent training. That’s how the system works….. calling the FAA hotline is not.
As far as the last question, Airline Pilot have and will continue to file their ASAP/SAR undeterred. The FOQA system merely complements the ASAP program….The problem with this whole episode is that this jumpseater apparently cannot identify what is a safety issue and what isn’t, and additionally is not familiar with these Safety programs that capture potential safety event either through automatic data monitoring complemented through the ASAP program. The only change that will happen...
As far as the last question, Airline Pilot have and will continue to file their ASAP/SAR undeterred. The FOQA system merely complements the ASAP program….The problem with this whole episode is that this jumpseater apparently cannot identify what is a safety issue and what isn’t, and additionally is not familiar with these Safety programs that capture potential safety event either through automatic data monitoring complemented through the ASAP program. The only change that will happen after the dust settles is that this pilot will never be able to get a jumpseater ever again.
@Dan77W:
Can you remind me which major airline you work for again? You should have received several official notifications in the past few days from your Council, MECs, and Union members strongly condemning the actions of thousands of pilots on several social media forums related to making these allegations with no factual information whatsoever.
It may seem fun and games to ruin someone's reputation based on false rumors on social media, but this has...
@Dan77W:
Can you remind me which major airline you work for again? You should have received several official notifications in the past few days from your Council, MECs, and Union members strongly condemning the actions of thousands of pilots on several social media forums related to making these allegations with no factual information whatsoever.
It may seem fun and games to ruin someone's reputation based on false rumors on social media, but this has now become a major disciplinary investigation within several airlines to find the people involved in leaking company confidential data and violating companies social media policies, anti harassment, anti retaliation policies and ALPA Code of Ethics.
Keep in mind that all these social media posts, emails, text messages and forum posts by Pilots involved leave a permanent paper trail that has been collected and will be thoroughly investigated by the appropriate parties.
I’m not attempting to ruin anyone’s reputation….I’m attempting to educate someone (YOU) how the FOQA and ASAP system works. I was hoping it would be informative… I guess not
Absolutely not true, it’s triggered automatically
Every button push is not tracked through FOQA. Not even 'Literally'.
FYI
Lots of discussion here whether the jump seater witnessed a safety issue or SOP issue.
There seems to be a complete lack of acknowledgement here that perhaps she actually saw something pretty severe to even have brought it up with SW crew let alone "trusted friend'.
Perhaps what Ben is reporting here about speed brakes is not even correct, as the explanation just doesn't make sense for those people who actually have experience flying...
Lots of discussion here whether the jump seater witnessed a safety issue or SOP issue.
There seems to be a complete lack of acknowledgement here that perhaps she actually saw something pretty severe to even have brought it up with SW crew let alone "trusted friend'.
Perhaps what Ben is reporting here about speed brakes is not even correct, as the explanation just doesn't make sense for those people who actually have experience flying the 737.
It's very immature for people to be throwing her name around, without having any knowledge of what actually happened and who she actually is.
If you guys had any common sense, you'd find out that she is not a newbie pilot, but experienced veteran with type ratings on 737 and 777.
Why waste time speculating when the truth is already out there
The only truth we have is that the FAA was required to open an investigation and immediately closed it…..that should tell you the level of severity of the incident. An FO with a wet 777 type rating does not make someone an “experienced veteran” these days, it did a decade ago.
How do you know FAA immediately closed the investigation? The incident actually happened quite a while ago, and has been handled by appropriate parties from the airlines and unions ever since. Mostly to mitigate false information spreading on social media.
Actually it never got past the inquiry stage it was such a non-event. As many on here have tried to tell you serious flt safety threats are automatically captured by QAR/FDR data and addressed internally but with direct FAA oversight. Non event, I do feel sorry for the amount of blowback she has received but that’s what happens when you don’t go through the proper process.
Let’s pretend it wasn’t her who called FAA hotline which I don’t believe for a second. If it was her boyfriend/husband/friend and they felt the need to call the FAA on the southwest crew, can you imagine how much she embellished the story to make it sound like she saved the day lol. What a joke, if I saw this in the jumpseat and mentioned it to the crew I would have forgotten about it...
Let’s pretend it wasn’t her who called FAA hotline which I don’t believe for a second. If it was her boyfriend/husband/friend and they felt the need to call the FAA on the southwest crew, can you imagine how much she embellished the story to make it sound like she saved the day lol. What a joke, if I saw this in the jumpseat and mentioned it to the crew I would have forgotten about it by the time the plane landed… that’s how Minor this event was a non issue that the pilots would have corrected on their own eventually if she wasn’t there. She’s probably a super weak pilot and this was her time to shine as she told her friend about what happened. Someone with experience and confidence in their pilot ability wouldn’t even think to bring this up after the flight.
Distracted crew below flap bug speed using speed brakes sounds pretty scary to me
Stall the plane without JS helping on approach and you'll be in a lot more trouble than this
So who's the super weak pilot here
Don't trust anyone with something you don't want put out into the world. The human condition is to share other people's problems and mistakes, it makes you look smarter. She knew what she was doing. She may not have realized the extent of the actual blowback on her. Lesson learned now.
Empty kitchen
That’s why my husband and son don’t bring work home. Also, don’t say they are pilots, rather ‘work at the airport ‘, lol.
I don't believe this!!! Nah! Sounds like she came up with an excuse. The FAA will not allow someone to file a complaint if they was not directly involved or saw the situation happen themselves! Hearsay is not allowed for so many legal reasons! I call BS ... Bigley as the orange man would say!
If that pilot ever has a small mistake she better report herself to the FAA immediately to ensure the issues is addressed and is never repeated.
The gals friend is obviously a jackass, showing that she has terrible judgment when it comes to friends and therefore she lacks a certain situation awareness
Agree with the comments. "Trusted friend" depends on your definition and the situation. They could report or retell to anyone. Perhaps the friend could be trusted on other matter but not this one. How do we know that the pilot did not purposely tell the friend.....
If the FAA deemed it worthy of investigation, perhaps it's good the friend reported it?
Deemed worthy? Call in anything and it has to be investigated
By regulation they are required to regardless of how frivolous as in this case
Speed brakes without flaps is NORMAL. A jumpseater (wrongly) telling a qualified pilot how to fly the aircraft is ABNORMAL. 99% of those commenting on this topic know NOTHING about the situation and like the jumpseater, should keep their mouths shut.
Were you in the cockpit during the incident?
Nope but the FOQA data monitor was.
Sounds like you are one of those 99% too
I agree with this missive. The jump seater was right to say something to the pilots, she was wrong to share it with a trusted friend.
Of course, had the ‘trusted friend’ been trustworthy this would have been end of story. Now a good thing may be messed up for many.
This obviously should have been reported to the FAA. Pilots having an internal code protecting each other is stupid.
Not sure why the FAA would take a report from someone who heard something from someone.
FAA should have reached out to someone who was there and ask if they want file a safety complaints.
Personally, I think she's lying. She went behind the back of the pilots, broke protocol, tried to get the crew in trouble... Then lied about it because she can't face the music.
Exactly!!! U have to be there to file a report..... Hearsay is not allowed.
I guess she was not as fun as the two girls in short shorts riding jump on an AirAsia flight. Lot of giggles from the flight deck.
Thank you for such respectful commentary. This attitude is exactly the problem here.
Was the speedbrake/flap a critical safety item? If not, the jump seater should have kept their mouth shut.
Possibly an airspeed issue considering the captain intervened instructing additional power, stowing the speed brakes and dropping flaps.
There is probably a very good reason she actually said something. You all think the jump seater is not qualified as a 737 pilot even though she holds 737 type rating.
For someone who's been flying commercially for almost ten years she certainly knows the proper jump seat etiquette.
Much ado about nothing. There is nothing to say that the pilots wouldn't have noticed on their own.
So I never submitted FAA report, but how exactly did this one go?
" Someone told me that on flight WNxxxxxx spoilers were used without flaps"?
The Southwest pilots’ reaction to this will make flying less safe. In a culture of safety, anybody should be able to report something without fear of reprisal.
The anger and retribution here is anathema to safety, and it means next time a serious event occurs, people will be afraid to report it.
Several actual pilots have posted here that this was not unsafe.
Do you think these pilots are qualified to say whether the situation was safe or unsafe if they weren't in the cockpit during that flight.
There are exactly 3 people who know the truth by having been in the cockpit during the incident, and everyone else is just guessing, pilot or not.
To be clear, the details of this incident were not reported correctly on social media.
A) Airlines have different procedures. How does a UAL pilot know SWA procedures? B) Different airplane models have different procedures. What aircraft does the jumpseater fly? C) What happens in the cockpit, stays in the cockpit. It's always been that way.
My understanding is she talked about the speed brake being used and the flaps were up. We always do that, so there must be more to the story. I guarantee she will NEVER...
A) Airlines have different procedures. How does a UAL pilot know SWA procedures? B) Different airplane models have different procedures. What aircraft does the jumpseater fly? C) What happens in the cockpit, stays in the cockpit. It's always been that way.
My understanding is she talked about the speed brake being used and the flaps were up. We always do that, so there must be more to the story. I guarantee she will NEVER ride a jumpseat anywhere ever again. Her name is everywhere. There's also going to be a problem when she works a flight. Every Captain will worry if she's going to report/publicize any little problem, even if it was not a problem.
I don't understand. I flew the B737-800 for many years. You can use speed brakes without flaps. In fact, that's the normal SOP for most aircraft. If you are in the approach phase, you may use speed brakes with flaps until 300 feet AGL. Am I missing something?
Has any one of you considered that maybe this had nothing to do with speed brakes, and that's the reason things are not adding up?
None of us was in the cockpit during this flight
Ben - Why do you insist on re-publishing the same article two-three times (not referring just to this article, but others as well) with minimal changes, but as an entirely separate post?
Why do you not just update the original post or post a new update with a changed title and the updates clearly indicated in the main body of text? Would be much appreciated to long-time readers of the blog.
It is obvious to everyone else here. Who goes back to re-read a post long in the past? No one does.
In order to address the topic with new information, it makes total sense to re-post the content.
Why do you insist on complaining about nothing relevant, if not to attempt to boast your own lagging ego?
I agree. I wish he would at least put the words UPDATE in the headline instead of thinking it was the original article. Sometimes I miss the original article and only see the updated one and the only way I know it was updated is because the comments section usually has comments from days ago when the article was "published" today.
You know how? Internet rumours? Social media gossip? It's ridiculous to release names as it will only lead to people being targeted. This whole episode sounds incredibly juvenile.
Ditto! In the end the only people who will have their pilot careers ruined are the ones who leaked private company confidential information online, and blatantly violated code of conduct and social media policies of the airlines they work for
It just leads to a denied jumpseats in the future, which is deserved
The Southwest pilots aren't going to get in any real trouble over it, so no big deal. Just an unfortunate news cycle that'll blow over soon.
Slow day in Miami
First of all, whoever said that you can't use speedbrakes without flaps is full of it.
No one was unsafe on this story, except for the woman in her mind "she felt unsafe" she is probably the type of person that needs instructions on how to eat a banana.
Ban her from all jumpseat privileges, we don't need this kind of person lurking around waiting to turn in someone for her insecurity. Oh,...
First of all, whoever said that you can't use speedbrakes without flaps is full of it.
No one was unsafe on this story, except for the woman in her mind "she felt unsafe" she is probably the type of person that needs instructions on how to eat a banana.
Ban her from all jumpseat privileges, we don't need this kind of person lurking around waiting to turn in someone for her insecurity. Oh, she didn't call the feds on the SWA crew? No matter, she and her rat boyfriend/lover, both should get banned from the jumpseat list, just like we ban every scab on the national scab list.
Exactly. NO ONE was unsafe and she showed and extreme lack of understanding transport category jets if getting momentarily slow caused her to be fearful. Besides the seat or your pants (usually my first indication), there are many noises, vibrations in the stick, announcements, colors and autothrottle actions that would need to occur before someone with real experience would feel in danger.
She needs to speak up to the pilot community and explain herself, publicly...
Exactly. NO ONE was unsafe and she showed and extreme lack of understanding transport category jets if getting momentarily slow caused her to be fearful. Besides the seat or your pants (usually my first indication), there are many noises, vibrations in the stick, announcements, colors and autothrottle actions that would need to occur before someone with real experience would feel in danger.
She needs to speak up to the pilot community and explain herself, publicly to regain our respect and trust. period.
The idea of a “trusted friend” is an absolute joke. If you believe it, I’ve got some great beach property in Nebraska to sell you that has great views of both coasts. Seriously.
Doctor, I have this “friend” who says it burns when he pees. What should he take for that?
As a famous geriatric pedophilic lying thief says, “C’mon, man!”
“The jump seater noticed that the first officer flying (who was also a fairly new hire) was using speed brakes without flaps, and recommended that he may want to add flaps”
I’m curious as to what aircraft type requires the flaps to be extended prior to speed brake usage?
Exactly!! I use speed brakes all the time without flaps!
She should have kept her mouth shut. Whomever reported it should have his information posted publically. Neither one of them would ever ride my jumpseat.
So you recommend doxxing then? Cool.
Oh the name is already out there, industry wide.
Why do you keep posting the same comments with different names, evidently, trying to present the allusion that many diverse individuals are of like mind, just sayin'?
Maybe the unions should send out memos about proper etiquette on confiding in a “trusted friend”…
She is not Captain/PIC and should've kept quiet unless it was a blatant safety issue.
To be honest even if she had gone as far as reporting this to the FAA herself, I don’t think that would be wrong, the FAA need to be aware of trends, and if the first officer could benefit from some more training. Safety first….
A new hire 777 pilot telling a 737 crew from another airline how to fly their 737? There are of course Boeing limitations, but different aircraft have different limits, then there are also company specific techniques. Nothing says that you have to have flaps to use speed brakes in 737. No safety issue at all with that. I’m not sure about the 777 with Boeing or United’s policy or limitations concerning flap/speedbrakes setting, I don’t...
A new hire 777 pilot telling a 737 crew from another airline how to fly their 737? There are of course Boeing limitations, but different aircraft have different limits, then there are also company specific techniques. Nothing says that you have to have flaps to use speed brakes in 737. No safety issue at all with that. I’m not sure about the 777 with Boeing or United’s policy or limitations concerning flap/speedbrakes setting, I don’t have a 777 type rating. So that’s why not going assume. So when jumpseating a 777, unless I see Red or Amber lights with bell and whistles. I’ll just politely ask the captain their technique. I’d never go straight to the FAA. That was wrong. Not to mention the whole trusted friend story sounds like BS. I think it was her and now with all the backlash, she’s regretting it and making up the “trusted friend”
She’s typed in the 737
You are not a pilot is my guess... What does the FAA need to know? Nothing. What does the FAA care about safety... NADA! There are proper channels to go through...FAA is not the first line of defense. Based on the report itself.. this was TECHNIQUE not a safety issue,
No.. that’s just all wrong.
If indeed it was a non-safety issue, then reporting the incident to the FAA should not have any consequence for the Southwest pilots, except possibly some paperwork.
The real concern is with Southwest's culture: If it had been a more serious safety incident, they would not have been able to cover it up if an independent observer reports it. This seems to be the main worry of the Southwest pilots.
And you know this for absolute fact?
Or is this just the feeling you get, having never been in the SWA culture you malign?
You have zero idea what your talking about and if you know anything about the 737, flaps aren’t required for use of the speed break and it’s actually not allowed to use with flap setting above 10!! You have no idea about the training that goes into these pilots and you also don’t know anything about the safety culture and level of professionalism these pilots have! Step in there shoes before you run your mouth!!
It didn't have any consequences, and we can't "cover up" anything. The jet records everything and serious deviations are all analyzed and addressed in a non-disciplinary function.
Obviously you’ve never reported anything to the FAA, I suggest you don’t ever open that can of worms..
I think I’ll call the police because I didn’t like the way my wife handled the kitchen knife!
I will never understand why the aviation industry in the states is so CHILDISH..
same thing applies with flight attendant.
I do blame the annoying union culture for that.
PS:used to work in aviation in the states now escaped elsewhere..
But at least we don’t have crooked teeth,
AmIRight?
Get off your high horse, you jackass!
And remind me to thank you for that!
The real issue here is that the FAA sets themselves up as an enemy instead of a true safety channel. I would say the entire crew did a great job;. The captain gave no pushback and even thanked the jump seater. I cannot say enough about how its great CRM that provides a good and safe environment. No one was at risk here.. and with a captain that good who has the executive maturity to...
The real issue here is that the FAA sets themselves up as an enemy instead of a true safety channel. I would say the entire crew did a great job;. The captain gave no pushback and even thanked the jump seater. I cannot say enough about how its great CRM that provides a good and safe environment. No one was at risk here.. and with a captain that good who has the executive maturity to listen and respond the way he did...thats the pilots you want flying. It is not the small mistakes you make but how you create an environment that allows them to be trapped. I say shame on the FAA for creating a very hostile relationship with all parties over time, other wise this would be no big deal at all. doubt the FAA will see it the way I do, but they should
“The jump seater noticed that the first officer flying (who was also a fairly new hire) was using speed brakes without flaps, and recommended that he may want to add flaps”
I’m curious as to what aircraft type requires the flaps to be extended prior to speed brake usage?
I am guessing the speed slowed below max Flaps 5 speed , giving the flying pilot the option of adding flaps for drag in lieu of speed breaks. This is a good technique that she shared, but barely a safety item. e
Did a "trusted friend" report it... really?
Sounds like a tale to take heat off yourself.
When you tell someone something in confidence you always assume that person is going to tell someone else. Maybe they won't, but don't be surprised if they do. So when she told a "trusted friend" she should have expected the "trusted friend" to tell someone else, possibly of consequence such as the FAA. That's human nature. If you have something you don't want spread around keep it to yourself. I've learned that motto the very,...
When you tell someone something in confidence you always assume that person is going to tell someone else. Maybe they won't, but don't be surprised if they do. So when she told a "trusted friend" she should have expected the "trusted friend" to tell someone else, possibly of consequence such as the FAA. That's human nature. If you have something you don't want spread around keep it to yourself. I've learned that motto the very, very hard way. And hopefully now did this pilot.
Do you understand what "in confidence" means? If you tell somebody something in confidence, you are expecting them not to tell anyone else. Else it wouldn't be "in confidence", now would it? The real lesson is not to confide in people who you assume would blab. Some people are trustworthy, others aren't. Don't say confidential stuff to people who you suspect aren't.
Right, so you never tell anyone anything of any consequence?
I don't know, if you told your "friend" you were late to the airport so you drove down the freeway at 75 in a 65mph zone, do you suspect that they might just go call the State Highway Patrol and turn you in? That is essentially what has happened here.
It’s obvious this Monday morning quarterbacking is not written by a pilot .
This has nothing to do with who said what to who. The mistake was the Jump seat pilot speaking without reason. Speed brakes without flaps is not a safety issue; therefore , she should have not interfered with the crew. Period. The Captains job is to speak to the First officer if he felt there was a more efficient way to fly the plane .
I agree with you totally!
Somthing isn't adding up. Been flying 737s for 17 years. There is nothing wrong with using speed brakes on a clean wing. You're not supposed to use speedbrakes beyond flap 10.
Maybe that’s what Laura got confused.
She thought you had to have flaps 15 to open the boards.
I mean, she is a new pilot, right?
And we KNOW United doesn’t hire on skin color or chromosomes alone, right? Right? That would be plain stupid if they did.
What an asinine thing to say. No one brings race and gender up any of the MANY times a white male pilot makes a mistake.
@Chris, I think you're onto something here
Maybe the reason something isn't adding up is because the rumors about speed brakes are not what this is all about
Is there a duty of confidentiality when you witness unsafe actions in a plane cockpit? What! Benny you’ve gone bonkers. No one has anything to apologize for here
What was unsafe? Unsafe would have been...she pointed it out...crew ignored her and let the airplane get into an unsafe condition...This never happened. Great crew...listened even if she were just sharing technique and made the correct adjustments. Waste of time for an FAA investigation.
@Ben - Why did you repost this article again today as though it’s a new post. You posted this earlier this week with the exact same words. No updates!
Desperate for content!
@ Jake212 -- Because I wrote an updated post to reflect what we've learned. It was initially believed that the pilot directly reported this to the FAA, while it has now been discovered that she shared this with a friend, and the friend reported it to the FAA. That's an important distinction, and I want to make sure the story is accurate.
I appreciate that you did update as your original post labeled the United pilot as a snitch while the updated post acknowledges, as in many situations, that there are often nuances as well as unknown facts that may not come to light until after the memory of the banner headlines fade.
There IS a new update. Unfortunately, Ben doesn't make it easy to see what exactly was updated so it appears to be an old article. This was brought up to Ben's attention before; however, he still doesn't make it apparent what exactly was changed in the updated article. Wish Ben did a better job at that to avoid comments such as yours (which I understand).
He's not desperate for content he's desperate for money, there are so many adds I can't read.
Virtually everyone has shared sensitive information with someone they trusted to keep it confidential, who then didn't. The urge to 'spill the beans' is a human thing. It's even in Greek mythology (King Midas' barber), and likely others I don't know about.
What I'd like to know is why the "trusted friend" reported it. Are they a fellow pilot? Axe to grind with SW? Clueless about the repercussions?
"At the same time, she clearly didn’t exercise good judgment by sharing these details with a “trusted friend,” if the friend ended up reporting this to the FAA without even giving her the courtesy of informing her, or asking if that was okay." What? How did she have control over what her friend was going to do with the information? Also, it's jarring to read in this article and the previous one how you, @Ben,...
"At the same time, she clearly didn’t exercise good judgment by sharing these details with a “trusted friend,” if the friend ended up reporting this to the FAA without even giving her the courtesy of informing her, or asking if that was okay." What? How did she have control over what her friend was going to do with the information? Also, it's jarring to read in this article and the previous one how you, @Ben, and others commenting are seemingly judging folks for "seeing something, saying something." As a passenger, I am glad to hear that there are airline employees out there willing to blow the whistle when it comes to passenger safety - whether it's something to do with maintenance, construction of jets, or, in what appears to be in this case, training. It's great that the pilot gave the first officer corrective instructions, but how many others at Southwest might need the same instructions? Better safe than sorry...or are the pilots at Southwest so fragile that we have to skirt around making sure everyone is trained correctly?
@Ralph
Problem is this wasn’t a safety issue…. just an easily corrected oversight. These things are expected in the day to day operations, Anything that might progress to a safety issue would be captured by the FOQA data monitoring system which if serious enough would be investigated and the airline’s FAA POI would be read in. The proof? The FAA quickly closed the investigation just as fast as they opened it.
@Dan77W - thanks for explaining that this wasn't a safety issue...it does make the whole situation feel even more petty!
@ Ralph4878 -- People have control over what they share with friends, and not what their friends share with others. However, I think it goes without saying that we all have some people we can trust more than others. Ultimately the decision to share this with a friend came back to harm her, and she's the one paying the price for it.
@Ben...sure, she's paying the price for it. But saying "...she clearly didn't exercise good judgment..." because someone she trusted later betrayed that trust feels like an awful lot of responsibility to place on her shoulders, especially considering all the "snitch" comments this has all elicited...
I would say the heart of the issue is that it was an "untrustworthy friend" and not a "trusted friend". The untrustworthy friend is the only one who really did anything wrong.
Agreed. You trust a friend until you can't. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt and assume that this friend was trusted up until he couldn't be, and is no longer trusted.
Let’s look at the objective facts.
JS saw something concerning enough based on her long experience to alert it.
Since when is that a bad thing?
Trying to hide close-call situations in the cockpit is asking for trouble.
Isn’t safety the most important thing in aviation, whether or not the report found the target regardless of where it came from
I would say the heart of the issue is your gullibility.
Doc, I have this friend who says it burns when he pees. What should he take?
See what I mean?