Well here’s an entertaining interaction between Emirates Airbus A380 pilots and air traffic controllers at New York Kennedy Airport (JFK). To be honest, I’ve heard JFK ATC be more unprofessional (admittedly that’s a high bar!), but still…
In this post:
JFK air traffic controllers & Emirates pilots argue
YouTube channel You can see ATC has air traffic control audio and a visualization of an interaction that happened at JFK on the early afternoon of December 9, 2025, as Emirates flight EK201 was taxiing to its gate after landing from Dubai (DXB). If you’re into this kind of stuff, I’d recommend watching the below video, though let me also summarize what makes this noteworthy.
The Emirates A380 was given several sets of instructions to taxi to the gate, and here’s the meat of the interaction:
- After being given initial taxi instructions, the Emirates pilot advised that their gate was occupied
- The tower controller advised the Emirates A380 to make the right turn on taxiway A, and hold short of taxiway D
- A short while later, while taxiing across an active runway, the tower controller advised the Emirates A380 to instead go straight ahead on taxiway A, and hold short of taxiway D
- The air traffic controller told the Emirates A380 not to stop due to traffic behind them, though it’s clear that the Emirates pilots were confused by the instructions, so slowed down
- The pilots were told to expedite their taxi, though since they were confused by the instructions, they sought clarification
- After taxiing for some time, the pilots seemingly forgot to switch to the ground frequency as was requested, so the tower controller told them to switch frequencies
- At this point, the Emirates pilot acknowledged the instructions, but said “by the way, sir, your instructions were not clear before, so just expediting was not a good idea, there is no need to be rude, just be more professional next time and more clear, thank you”
- The controller didn’t like being called out in this way, so tried to challenge the pilot on his claim, asking if the instructions were unclear, to which the Emirates pilot responded “yes, it was unclear, we are four pilots here, nobody understood you, and there is a native English speaker, so more professional and more clear, thank you very much”
- The air traffic controller wanted to keep arguing the point, and the Emirates pilot then simply responded by indicating they would switch frequencies
- Funny enough, clearly the tower controller told his ground controller buddy what was going on, so then the other air traffic controller wanted to continue arguing on frequency… oy
My take on this contentious JFK ATC interaction
Some (but not all) air traffic controllers at JFK are known for being among the least friendly and most unhelpful that you’ll find anywhere. Funny enough, I’d actually say that by JFK standards, the tower controller wasn’t that unprofessional, at least in terms of his tone. In particular, obviously the Emirates pilot spoke up due to cumulative frustration, rather than that final interaction, specifically.
For those who may not fully understand what’s going on here, what happened is that the air traffic controller wanted the A380 to taxi all the way around the airport. So initially the instruction was to turn right onto taxiway A, but presumably when the controller realized that the gate was occupied, he instead wanted the A380 to use taxiway A, but in the other direction, to keep the plane moving.
I can understand why the Emirates pilots might have been confused, since they weren’t necessarily expecting those instructions, and they assumed there was some other context they were missing. After all, it’s rare that you’re given continuous taxi instructions spanning such a distance.
But this is also where the problems originated:
- The pilots were clearly confused, so telling pilots to expedite their taxi when they clearly didn’t understand where they were supposed to go isn’t a great practice, especially since they were given these instructions while crossing a runway
- What I find most absurd is how combative both the tower and ground controller were with wanting to prove that they were right; they were like children, and didn’t want to let go of what happened until the pilots apologized, basically
- The issue with some air traffic controllers is that they have a plot of land that’s a few square miles that they spend half of their life controlling, and they fail to consider that maybe some pilots have never flown there, haven’t been there in months or years, etc.; they exclusively view things through the lens of whether it makes sense to them, rather than whether it might makes sense to someone who has never been to an airport before
So this just seems like a situation where a little clarification would’ve gone a long way. Like, “I’m going to taxi you all the way around the airport, so instead of turning right on taxiway A, proceed straight ahead…”
Bottom line
The pilots of an Emirates Airbus A380 and air traffic controllers at JFK got into it over instructions for taxiing. Clearly the Emirates pilots just didn’t understand the change in instructions, and the air traffic controller told them to hurry, despite their confusion.
The pilot asked the controller to be more professional, but that didn’t go over well, as he then didn’t want to drop that “feedback.” He was so obsessed with being proven right that he even had his buddy, the ground controller, continue the argument on his behalf, on another frequency.
One wonders, when these JFK controllers have a day off and hang out together, do they just go to a bar and discuss how stupid they think everyone in the world is, except for them?
What do you make of this Emirates A380 & JFK ATC interaction?
I'm a retired airline pilot. In my opinion, both the controllers and the pilots failed to remain calm and, in the interest of safety, resolve the issue in a moderate tone. Park your egos at the door, gentlemen.
Jfk ATC is one of the worst and rudest in the country. Often speak slang, rushed, unprofessional. And at times even wrong.
It seems the Trump “despicable human being” syndrome has now reached JFK tower controllers that jeopardize travelers safety. Simple solution is to stop visiting U.S. You risk being killed at the airport or being detained by ICE and then deported. Why take the risk?
It is difficult for non new Yorker to easy understand the ground and tower controllers in JFK
I had to reposition aircraft in JFK it was extremely difficult thus I requested follow me truck and requested ground crew to tow the aircraft instead of taxing
I understand the frustration in JFK
At the end JFK must understand that they are dealing with many crew from all over the world they must educate...
It is difficult for non new Yorker to easy understand the ground and tower controllers in JFK
I had to reposition aircraft in JFK it was extremely difficult thus I requested follow me truck and requested ground crew to tow the aircraft instead of taxing
I understand the frustration in JFK
At the end JFK must understand that they are dealing with many crew from all over the world they must educate them self and talk clearly and bit slow without using their slang words
A British Airways pilot, landing at Berlin airport, stopped on the taxi way to check his flip chart as his brief advised works were being conducted.
The ATC rudely advised that the BAE pilot had been given his instructions and 'haven't you been here before'.
The BAE pilots response was 'yes, but that was 1944 and I wasn't stopping'.
Just what you need after a long flight and the pressure of landing at Kennedy is a US controller
If the roles were reversed…oh that’s right, ATC can’t fly the A380!
JfK ATC was extremely unprofessional, using slang like "no factors" and giving an instruction like cross 22r on alpha hold short of delta is very confusing when delta is all the way around the otherside of the airport.
Too Stressed i guess or.........
Any pilot that gets confused about ATC instructions that are crisp and clear shouldn’t be a pilot. Controllers don’t have time to explain to incompetence why they were told to do something!
There Buddy you’ve shit yourself. If after bad unprofessional advice from ATC, the A-380’s wing slits another a/c wing and there’s a huge fire with catastrophic casualties; during the subsequent NTSB investigations, we’ll see how brave you'll stand! Maybe ICAO should compel FAA to look into the several complaints about JFK’s ATC.
Any pilot that gets confused about ATC instructions that are crisp and clear shouldn’t be a pilot
What could be simpler than obeying the instructions to taxi straight ahead on Alpha and hold short on Delta? Give me a break. I have 35 years of experience of flying heavy aircraft. New York controllers are among the best… The controller was candid when querying about the confusion of such simple instructions.
Yeah but delta was all the way around the otherside of airport, for the crew it looked like the ATC was making a mistake, and they were trying to clarify it.
Kennedy local controllers acting like foolish children is SOP. Good on the emirates crew for calling them out. The rest of us are too afraid. Lol
"The controller was challenged, and had his ego bruised."
I mean you can't make a suggestion someone be more courteous and professional on the radio without sounding hostile. You can't ask to change how ATC conducts themselves. Same as telling a police officer you'd "appreciate it if he'd be more courteous and professional".
Totally unnecessary. The Emirates pilot should have just shut his mouth in the first place and just done what he was told. Also I might add that I thought that the Emirates call sign “69R Super” was just a ridiculous mouthfull. Just “69R” would have been sufficient. Talk about clogging up the air waves with unnecessary chatter!!!
Seems like the 'common' New York style courtesy extends at times to ATC control.
Why someone making comments equates the situation to Biden seems like a bit of reaching for sake of making a political point. If Trump continues down the destructive path he has chosen all of us will have a lot to be concerned about along with safety in the sky.
I’ve got 40 years experience at this: communications are absolutely critical, being a jerk (on either end) is never, ever helpful and frequently unsafe, and controllers at towers with a huge proportion of foreign operators need to remember that their instructions should be standardized, clear, and delivered at a reasonable speech rate. Saying it two or three times fast isn’t saving time over doing it once at moderate speed - and if you’re asking a...
I’ve got 40 years experience at this: communications are absolutely critical, being a jerk (on either end) is never, ever helpful and frequently unsafe, and controllers at towers with a huge proportion of foreign operators need to remember that their instructions should be standardized, clear, and delivered at a reasonable speech rate. Saying it two or three times fast isn’t saving time over doing it once at moderate speed - and if you’re asking a pilot to do something unusual or unexpected, note that and add a couple of words of explanation so the know they didn’t misunderstand the instruction.
Many carriers, few 380 airbus and fewer who are very professional and English pros
Air traffic is extremely busy and there's no time to bitter on the radio. Planes just can't stop on a dime and thats how all these accidents are happening. Those pilots could of requested the towers number and call them once at the gate. Welcome to New York.
Clearly your dealing with "Native New Yorkers"...or "New York Minded People"...That's a situation waiting to happen!!!!
It’s Noo Yoik. Whaddareyagonnado?
I need one question answered about a comment that was made by the person who's income is 8 figures. Why does politics have to be brought into this conversation. Who knows under what administration this person was hired. The person man or woman has alot of responsibility moving a large machine around not clear of the instructions. Yes, the atc person should've been more professional. But that's the attitude of large process of New Yorkers....
I need one question answered about a comment that was made by the person who's income is 8 figures. Why does politics have to be brought into this conversation. Who knows under what administration this person was hired. The person man or woman has alot of responsibility moving a large machine around not clear of the instructions. Yes, the atc person should've been more professional. But that's the attitude of large process of New Yorkers. What if this pilot who have made a wrong turn and ended upon an active runway with an arrival or departure. The A380 being in the wrong area due to some atc controller being arrogant now you have a bigger problem. An accident. In this situation the pilot was right to call the controller out on his non professionalism
Atc was at the wrong. Bitchy wrong attitude the aircraft controller is there for clear understanding. Sounds like controller needs to take a 30 to 60 day time out.
The Emirates pilots should have asked for clarification on the second set of instructions given by ATC, since they were confused. The controller was challenged, and had his ego bruised. Someone made a comment about Biden and the quality of ATC hired during his administration. That comment was of gross ignorance and lunacy. Reagan caused more harm and damage to the US ATC system than any other president, the system is still suffering today from his firings in 1981.
When High School Students become Air Controllers after a some Training they are called Specialists in America.
This is the problem as their education has not given them enough wisdom, empathy or non judgemental attitude etc.
They are still little Children as are many Adult Americans.
In India there are Graduates for such Positions with at least a Years Vocational Training. They are sensitized at being kind and helpful and trained to...
When High School Students become Air Controllers after a some Training they are called Specialists in America.
This is the problem as their education has not given them enough wisdom, empathy or non judgemental attitude etc.
They are still little Children as are many Adult Americans.
In India there are Graduates for such Positions with at least a Years Vocational Training. They are sensitized at being kind and helpful and trained to speak English or other languages with much clarity.
With over 25 years as an international pilot, I can say candidly that some of the most serious operational errors and least professional ATC interactions I’ve encountered have been in Mumbai. Being lectured on empathy by someone overlooking their own institutional issues is ironic—especially given the continued normalization of a caste system that is fundamentally incompatible with the values being preached.
Nag nag nag all you do is nag. Nobody likes a cotton picken nagger, or some dumb pilot from the Emirates who got his pilot's license by flashing Daddy's money at flying school.
Definitely magat voters for sure with that a$$hole attitude
And they wonder why airport ground collisions don't happen more often
All parties should be required to extend mutual respect for each other. It seems they failed to understand passenger safety is paramount, not who is right or wrong. Bob dyga
My issue, is the Tower and Ground crew are the ones that have an issue here. Their JOB is to keep accidents from happening. This situation IMO would elevate to a formal review process for multiple reasons. 1) ATC Arguing with a plane in motion, vice providing clear communication and feedback when instructions were not being followed. i.e. The JOB is to ensure safety of lives, if you are focused on "being right" and fighting...
My issue, is the Tower and Ground crew are the ones that have an issue here. Their JOB is to keep accidents from happening. This situation IMO would elevate to a formal review process for multiple reasons. 1) ATC Arguing with a plane in motion, vice providing clear communication and feedback when instructions were not being followed. i.e. The JOB is to ensure safety of lives, if you are focused on "being right" and fighting means you are not doing your Job. 2) The pass off to GC and continuance of this misunderstanding. Shows tribalism and again has nothing to do with the ATC or the GCs job. 3) Situations like this example aren't usually the exception. That means a tolerated internal negative climate is in place meaning there are likely lives at risk due to this brazen unprofessional attitudes. It was more important to ATC and GC to attempt to swing their collective junk around, than to ensure to UAE flight understood the directions and arrived safely. That makes this an actionable offense by itself...
ATC should have talked slower and louder as with anyone that has trouble understanding their english.
This is a systemic mental health issue. Both are not acting professionally. Hiwever, whis life is at stake? That what matters. This happens all day in hralthcare where lives are at stake. Instead of focusing on what is helpful the staff is complaining constantly as if they are doctors doing surgery and can do it better with a high school.degree.. The Pilot is in "Command" and ATC supports the primary mission keeping souls on earth.....
This is a systemic mental health issue. Both are not acting professionally. Hiwever, whis life is at stake? That what matters. This happens all day in hralthcare where lives are at stake. Instead of focusing on what is helpful the staff is complaining constantly as if they are doctors doing surgery and can do it better with a high school.degree.. The Pilot is in "Command" and ATC supports the primary mission keeping souls on earth.. Everyone get your stuff together. Top down, not down up. Lives are at stake. Command persons are quiting because of people who think they know everything backseat they grew up with a smart phone.
40 year airline pilot ...NEVER ARGUE ON THE RADIO .Just stop until instructions are clearly understood..
Unfortunately, the prism of American views everything is, "Do it our way or take the highway!".
When American arrogance is brought down to dize, things will improve.
An Emirates A380 pilot is worth 1000 ATCs in the US.
Unqualified controllers.
Seems to be a norm with Americans having the attitude that a pilot with a foreign accent doesn't understand English. There have been too many near misses on taxiways and runways due to unclear unclear instructions. Definitely, there should be no confusing instructions rudely presented. I have heard some rude communications from ATC/ground control. Full marks to Emirates cockpit crew
As a retired pilot who has flown into JFK numerous times, i can totslky understand the A480 pilots confusion. Since there was a change in ATC taxi instructions a short explanation by them would have been appropriate. For both tower and gound controllers to continue their childish behavior over frequency was very unprofessional of them. The professional way to handle this would have been for ATC to politely ask the A380 to please give them...
As a retired pilot who has flown into JFK numerous times, i can totslky understand the A480 pilots confusion. Since there was a change in ATC taxi instructions a short explanation by them would have been appropriate. For both tower and gound controllers to continue their childish behavior over frequency was very unprofessional of them. The professional way to handle this would have been for ATC to politely ask the A380 to please give them a landline call later. Due to both the tower and ground controllers kept badgering means their frequencies weren't that busy for them to have guven the A380 pilots a short explanation for the change in the taxi instructions.
Retired Captaim
Indepdence Air (FLYI)
40 year airline pilot ...NEVER ARGUE ON THE RADIO .Just stop until instructions are clearly understood..
OK, as ex military air crew, the most important is safety, and not wich rooster is king in this scenario... just help each other to get along in the air travel industry. 401 sqn Can.
Shut up. You're telling stories now. You've always been telling stories and you're going to tell stories in the future. Why don't you just sit back and read instead of lying your big fat head off about things that you don't know anything about
The air traffic controllers sound like a bunch of incompetent clowns that need to get off their high horse. They must be bottom of the barrel employees
This sounds dangerous. ATC needs to be very clear with instructions and help pilot understand exactly what's going on. Why direct them to an occupied gate to begin with?
JFK controllers are great at provoking and contentiousness at times.
New Yorkers. If they can elect stupid people to run their city, what to expect from ATC !!!!!
You mean elect stupid leader of country... right
The ground ATC was simply asking the pilot what they could have said that the Emirates pilot could understand, so that they next time they arrive, they could improve. There was nothing wrong with that.
Yes, they probably do get together and drink and talk about how stupid people are, because this world has become shockingly stupid. I'm an air traffic controller and I can promise all of you that the comments non-controllers are leaving saying, " Well what I think should have happened was..." are completely useless. We don't care. We do this for a living and you're talking out of your rectum. I don't give mechanics advice on...
Yes, they probably do get together and drink and talk about how stupid people are, because this world has become shockingly stupid. I'm an air traffic controller and I can promise all of you that the comments non-controllers are leaving saying, " Well what I think should have happened was..." are completely useless. We don't care. We do this for a living and you're talking out of your rectum. I don't give mechanics advice on how to fix my car, just like you shouldn't be giving air traffic controllers advice on how to control traffic. Stay in your lane, dummies.
But I can tell if the mechanic is doing shit, without knowing much about cars- some things are just easily understood, even by non- specialist... just like I can easily tell that by reading your message you're that brown stuff that comes ot from the rectum.
ATC profile I guess, because you're a scumbag
Wow, now that is a really tempered response.... NOT
To me it sounds like the blowing of snow by accident and handing the blowing of snow to ground is normal not only by accident but some TSA as well...JFK people should take sensitivity courses as well...
If you have an enormous A380 with best part of 500 passengers on board. The aircraft takes time to accelerate brake etc. He is not driving an Uber taxi . The ATC guy was definitely in the wrong. Needs to swallow a bit if humble pie and get over himself. And be more precise, that his job after all. Aircraft safety is paramount. Kudos to the captain for challenging his arrogance .
Thank you.
Can the pilots lodge a formal complaint against JFK ATC? I normally sympathize with ATC, but in this case the pilots had just landed after 14 hours, a blocked gate and unclear directions. They had a right to ask for clarification and just needed a clear response, not attitude and insult. They were right to call out rudeness. ATC is supposed to be doing so many things at once, but in this case, they used...
Can the pilots lodge a formal complaint against JFK ATC? I normally sympathize with ATC, but in this case the pilots had just landed after 14 hours, a blocked gate and unclear directions. They had a right to ask for clarification and just needed a clear response, not attitude and insult. They were right to call out rudeness. ATC is supposed to be doing so many things at once, but in this case, they used precious time that should have gone to guiding/monitoring another flight, to squabbling.
The Emirates pilots should all lose their jobs. They apparently can't handle 14 hours of flying and need more understanding for their situation even though this is their job and need to be at their best at all times. If the pilot didn't understand the instructions, they should have remained put, sought clarifcation and not start rolling. Instead, they moved and then stopped while the BA behind them then needed to stop in the runway.
Have you ever flown at all. Let alone a 380 seems your a bloody keyboard warrior. I haven't flown a jet. But 14 hours even with pilots handing off is tedious. I have a buddy that flies the triple 7 its not all roses and ribeye steak
Pissing contests have no place at any airport any where my view is if you cannot do your job in a professional and adult manner you should take a brake clear your head or go home and grow up
The logic was and is very straight forward. The JFK ground controllers placed the safety of the plane in "extreme danger".
Placing dangerous doubt into the pilots minds while crossing active runways. This speaks of system failure because of controller EGO'S.
The whole JFk airport is confusing as hell ... outside taxi areas and inside gate areas with multiple terminals. The management should visit other world airports that are well oiled and see how an airport should be run. Their eyes would be opened to just how bad JFK really is.
All of NY is rude
Nooooooo, it is called moxy, you are confusing the characters.
You are so right about that. Uncivilized even, and my least favorite place on that continent
ATC or not, they needed to be more professional with the pilots. The political administration has nothing to do with ATC being professional. These ATC employees need a class on professionalism. Simple.
Rushing pilots that are confused with the instructions is an idea that could have gotten people killed. Lord help the flying public!
Says the same people who keep complaining about flight delays and waiting a long time on runways. The ATC should receive a medal for trying to keep traffic moving.
They both need to grow and focus on being 100 percent safe ar all times.
It's their job to safely taxi these huge planes and a little clarification shouldn't be a big deal. Being a jerk only puts lives at risk in this type of situation. You do not argue with a pilot that could kill hundreds of people. Stop take a breath and do your damn job. That's weak sauce. Do better.
Just been "the ugly american"
More of the abasement our nation is known for, in the world. When elected official(s) are allowed to act in a rude and condescending manner, the public thinks it is acceptable also. A once great nation deteriorates even more, and the public needs to put their collective feet down. Enough of "Orange Roughy's" vitriolic diatribes! Make America Great Again- DUMP TRUMP!
Wow, TDS rears its ugly head again.
Take a deep breath and use your "brain" for actually thinking once...
The ATC instructions were very garbled and he was not talking into his headset very clearly. They should recognise that a crew who were not native speakers of English (especially the New York version) would have trouble understanding and need a bit of assistance to get it right.
Everyone has a point But the pilots did not ask them to explain the instructions again instead attacked atc on personal grounds directly by saying be professional
Did you hear the same recording??? You must have been confusd over who was talking. The pilot was garbled every time he spoke and the ATC was clear as hell. He specifically changed instructions as a result of the pilots telling them that their bay was occupied and clearly told him not to stop. Some people are just not made to be pilots.
Controller was clear… if you know JFK. He probably assumed Emirates A380 had been there before. Professional as well, just wanted the Emirates to get moving. As 777 was on a runway - controller didn’t want that. Instead of expediting, Emirates were trying to figure out what the D hold meant for them - as they were stuck in a KD hold mindset. I wouldn’t tell a JFK controller to be professional after I was...
Controller was clear… if you know JFK. He probably assumed Emirates A380 had been there before. Professional as well, just wanted the Emirates to get moving. As 777 was on a runway - controller didn’t want that. Instead of expediting, Emirates were trying to figure out what the D hold meant for them - as they were stuck in a KD hold mindset. I wouldn’t tell a JFK controller to be professional after I was confused and going slow, and keeping an aircraft on a runway. The controller was professional. Wanted the slow pokes to get going, due to the United 777. Don’t waste radio time telling a JFK controller “waaah, you hurt our feelings and need to be professional”. Just do what he says. If you aren’t familiar that the hold from there now means traversing around the airport, that’s on the *4* Emiratees in the cockpit. And the ground controller could have been just trying to get what the confusion was so they could take steps to correct future confusions. Only way to do thst is for JFK controllers to assume no aircraft crew knows anything at any time and say, every time, “ok, go straight *and your going to be taxiing around the airport* to D…” and “you’ve got a 777 trying to get off a runway behind you, you should pretty please speed up”.
Yes i think yhey were rude a d inproffisional even if they have duch lon experience
Sorry overworked controllers, but after being safely in the air for 15 or more hours and then having nowhere to park then literally getting a run around the airport I have to side with the pilots. The pilots just want to be done with the aircraft and go to the hotel, not have to deal with petty turf wars or personality issues also English is not their primary language so how about a little patience.
I've worked at the airport for 40 years understand the perspective of both sides.
Personally I've never given a F both side there is good and bad in all sides.
Both have the responsibility of keeping everyone safe and have their territories. Given the fact if I were the pilots knowing as noted the general history of ATC at this location would have responded with humor outlining their clarification as to what the...
I've worked at the airport for 40 years understand the perspective of both sides.
Personally I've never given a F both side there is good and bad in all sides.
Both have the responsibility of keeping everyone safe and have their territories. Given the fact if I were the pilots knowing as noted the general history of ATC at this location would have responded with humor outlining their clarification as to what the intent of the controller.
Asking or dressing down territory mindset people as noted just leads to this type of situation beating them in their game using a more tactful approach is better.
First and foremost I cannot believe that in a highly professional atmosphere such as air traffic, that there is not a supervisor at the helm of things at all time. this is the exact reason that my wife and I have decided to travel by water, rail , or car in the future.
JFK ATC is just like the Trump cronies.
Does any pilot know what a controller is about to tell them? No. They can assume what they think, but you’re taught to listen never assume, just listen. The controller said, “CORRECTION! Continue straight ahead!” And, “Keep your speed up, as there is another aircraft behind you.” They repeated it as well, and the pilot then read it back.
So how can you argue that you “don’t understand”? And how did the controller become unprofessional...
Does any pilot know what a controller is about to tell them? No. They can assume what they think, but you’re taught to listen never assume, just listen. The controller said, “CORRECTION! Continue straight ahead!” And, “Keep your speed up, as there is another aircraft behind you.” They repeated it as well, and the pilot then read it back.
So how can you argue that you “don’t understand”? And how did the controller become unprofessional when you’re the one who didn’t understand him? Just because you’re a pilot flying an A380 doesn’t make you a great listener, nor does it make you superhuman. Everyone gets tired.
The pilot didn’t “mishear”; they were fatigued, and their brain was still on the first instruction. But once they got called out in front of their fellow crew, they tried to play defense. As for the second controller who knows, maybe he was a supervisor he simply explained what to expect next time flying into JFK. Simple. How is that treating someone like they’re stupid?
Some people just don’t like it when they’re caught with their pants down. The author of this article tried to make excuses for the pilots by insulting the controller, even though they admitted the controller wasn’t unprofessional.
The FOUR pilots couldn't even remember to switch frequencies. They all need to be relieved of their duties permanently. It is not safe for them to fly any size planes.
Exactly, FO spoke English very well. 4 pilots in the cockpit with the airport diagram on their tablets. Crossing an active runway. These pilots knew at the top of descent what runway they were landing on and the possible taxi routes. JFK controllers don't tolerate rookies in the cockpit.
A380 even has limited taxi routes due to it's size. We brief taxi routes before decent, and those instructions were pretty simple. Don't let them land at ORD, they'd be lost.
Typical Americans.
The familiar stuck-up foreign-pilot routine. Yes, the controllers were rude. Big deal. After 25 years flying worldwide, I’ve been dressed down by ATC a few times—Frankfurt and Jeddah come to mind. Curt controllers are not unique, and they’re certainly not worth the outrage. Unfortunately, the Prima Donna Emirates pilots couldn't let it go! If they would have STFU this would never be on the internet.
Exactly, FO spoke English very well. 4 pilots in the cockpit with the airport diagram on their tablets. Crossing an active runway. These pilots knew at the top of descent what runway they were landing on and the possible taxi routes. JFK controllers don't tolerate rookies in the cockpit.
The 7 C's of communication were not adequately followed by the ATC.
It is fortunate the traffic controller didn't cause an accident by not providing clear instructions to the aircraft crew.
Traffic controllers are not the top of the hill, the pilot is at the top. That person is responsible for the passagers (500 -600+) and the plane.
Let not forget that thanks to DOT leadership FAA manning at 30 year low! Only hearing ATC talking to one Aircraft! He was probably actually controlling many many. So no time for nice! Listen to my instructions and follow them. How much had to do with A380? Which is is limited in gates that can accommodate it. Sure fact A380 crew was frustrated in having to go all the way around. They understood, but could not comprehend why.
If more people had God in their life, they might not have so much pride and hate in their hearts. Probably more fruits of the spirit such as
Love, Joy, peace, gentleness, kindness, patience( longsuffering) etc. Pride causes the "They are beneath me syndrome" such as the commenter " My annual income is 8 figures". He thinks he is wiser and better than anyone else.
This is what the u s a has become a failed state led in populated by fools.
Emirates pilots are certainly aware of correct protocol and politeness the ATC needs more schooling in a lot of being a ATC go EMIRATES
The pilots sound like they are at a dinner party, not flying into one of the busiest airports in the world. Pilots flying into JFK should not expect to be coddled. At this airport, thousands of lives are at stake at any given minute. This isn't youth soccer. If they aren't proficient enough to land at JFK, they shouldn't be piloting on that route.
I believe this was a professional exchange and reported as rude. It was a teachlng/learning moment. Pilots are required to request clarification when needed. In this scenario, time didnt permit due to the runway speeds. Airbus was a heavy load (super) and speeds are very important to them too! I applaud them both for recapping and clarifying. Time was of the essence in that exchange.
ATC controllers should be licensed pilots with all the ratings so that they can understand what’s going on in the cockpit.
Most ATC controllers think that they are Gods given gift to all pilots on this planet.
Yes, let's figure out more ways to have fewer ATC, so that there are fewer flights like a few months ago.
So essentially cow down like everyone else to these pilots of a usually arse kissed religion? How dare Americans in America not pucker up? These JFK controllers have audacity to expect pilots on American soil to understand English and directions! I am ashamed of JFK Air Traffic Controllers frankly!
Just another arrogant USAmerican! NOT surprising!
When on the ground pilots are aware of need to switch frequencies to ground control because ATC is extremely busy routing planes in the air.
Pilots that can't follow instructions need to ask for clarification and expedite movement when crossing an active runway, not slow down and create a dangerous situation.
Those pilots need to get a FAA reprimand and lose their authorization to fly into US airports.
They created a dangerous...
When on the ground pilots are aware of need to switch frequencies to ground control because ATC is extremely busy routing planes in the air.
Pilots that can't follow instructions need to ask for clarification and expedite movement when crossing an active runway, not slow down and create a dangerous situation.
Those pilots need to get a FAA reprimand and lose their authorization to fly into US airports.
They created a dangerous situation. ATC does not have time to argue with them.
Most US traffic controllers do not use standard phraseology. That is why whenever I hear incidents of incursions, I already know the reason, unclear and non standard instructions. Welcome to the Kingdom of United States of America.
Who gives a flip of that first comment was from someone with an eight digit income. Just because they have money doesn't make what they say any more important or relevant to what I say. I guess my five figure income marks me as a nobody and my words are crap.
Was is eight figures before or after the decimal?
why did the ATC send the plane to a gate already occupied?
That is pure incompetence
After listening it's my opinion the Air Traffic Controller should have stated to Emirates a change to previous instructions and to now continue straight on A, do not turn, continue straight on A. A small tweak is a huge deal. They were pushing to speed them up due to aircraft behind them so a few words added could make it clear to the pilot and I mean safely clear. Additionally, in this situation, had the...
After listening it's my opinion the Air Traffic Controller should have stated to Emirates a change to previous instructions and to now continue straight on A, do not turn, continue straight on A. A small tweak is a huge deal. They were pushing to speed them up due to aircraft behind them so a few words added could make it clear to the pilot and I mean safely clear. Additionally, in this situation, had the controller not stated a 'changer to the instructions when giving the new, the pilot should ask for clarity and/or confirmation of the change on A, to continue straight, do not turn. I think both sides had a role but it clearly begins with the controller's instructions.
Let's not beat around the bush here. The issue (and most unprofessional) is the use of the word "unprofessional" in the conversation. That's the root cause. Aviation english training and qualification requirements gotta have that etiquette aspect as well.
Only been to JFK a couple of times but encountered some of the rudest behavior I’ve ever experienced in an airport terminal. My explanation at the time was it’s New York what did you expect? I guess it carries right up to the air traffic controllers. I avoid NY like plague now.
I agree with the pilots. It was a poir choice if words to tell a pilot to hurry up and execute a direction when th we pilot is confused over the instruction. That could put people livez in jeopardy. Controller should have responded okay pilot im sorry my instruction was not clear . Then repeat the instruction. But never tell a pilot to hurry if they state they are nit clear on the instruction. In this field of work that could cost the loss of hundreds of lives.
Right
Im thinking the controllers are in their own little world and expect everyone else to understand their short replies. You need to realise that JFK Airport is ALL New! And pilots need to get used to it. There are all new taxi ways and runways .I think the controller should have just explained what he needed the Airbus to do . You can’t have a confused pilot of a plane taxiing around the airport with...
Im thinking the controllers are in their own little world and expect everyone else to understand their short replies. You need to realise that JFK Airport is ALL New! And pilots need to get used to it. There are all new taxi ways and runways .I think the controller should have just explained what he needed the Airbus to do . You can’t have a confused pilot of a plane taxiing around the airport with live runways . The controllers need to put themselves in the pilots position and as the article says, some of these pilots may have never been to this Airport before . JFK Airport is completely different than it was before the entire makeover was done.
The atc in N.Y.are American and all American are arrogant, of course he wants to be right,,,
As a pilot of many years i can say I've been confused by taxi instructions many times. But this is not at all confusing nor rude. The rate of delivery wasn't the machine gun delivery that I've experienced many times. The instructions made sense in light of the arrival gate being unavailable. In fact, it was the only logical part open, even if it did make a full circle around the terminal. Controllers have to...
As a pilot of many years i can say I've been confused by taxi instructions many times. But this is not at all confusing nor rude. The rate of delivery wasn't the machine gun delivery that I've experienced many times. The instructions made sense in light of the arrival gate being unavailable. In fact, it was the only logical part open, even if it did make a full circle around the terminal. Controllers have to keep things moving or the whole thing turns into a CF. To ask to be babied at a destination like JFK is ridiculous for pilots of one of the world's largest aircraft. If you're going into JFK, better be on top of your game.
Totally agree, those pilots were not experienced enough to be piloting that route. They could have killed a lot of people.
Ridiculous that some commentators are attempting to politcize JFK's poor ATC. One could argue that the current state of poor US ATC dates back to Ronald Reagan. What is undeniable is that in my 30 year of flying into JFK as a commercial pilot, they have always had an unsubstantiated and undeserved level of self competence.
Definitely makes me want to avoid JFK at all costs!
Pilot tried to blame atc for their own mistake. Atc didn't speak in any way that was unprofessional. Pilots need to pay attention when atc is giving them instructions they have to follow.
We talk about the ATC unpoliteness and unprofessionalism. Looks like there is a culture here. What about during the course of arguments, safety could be compromised? Being an Airline Aircraft Dispatcher, I have seen and reminding everyone, how many times in our aviation history that catastrophic accidents happened because of ATC's unclear instructions? Do we not learn? Or serve this a notice? I urge the FAA Safety board or NTSB to look into this matter.
Every air disaster involved a pilot in the cockpit. That must be the problem and we never learned.
I feel that generally speaking. ATC have been an anomaly for decades. They have been instructed in a coral environment. Instructional development of controllers is limited to aspects that focus on a lack of total quality management. Aviators operate in the environment that is open and a variety of situational awareness that flyers must be astute for every flight. The controller’s realm need’s broadening that would include flight experience internships.
380 is a pretty big Bird, I'm sure they try to get the best pilots for those and ATC could use more training , their jobs stressful enough. Trump ? He should be fired with all the mayhem he has caused .
If the Pilots were not given Proper Clear information they cannot park. They fly planes not the control tower. The reason why they are not parked is because of towers shortfalls by a lot.
Thank you Captains
Sounds like the JFK people are starting to attack others just like the Orange Felon commander in chief does to all his enemies like it is starting to rub off onto others that feel they are better than foreigners. This is very very sad for those to start feeling so entitled
I’m a CFI.. we always teach students to confirm instructions if unsure.. I would have replied back to atc like so: confirm new destructions.. taxi straight ahead?
Isn't that place against equal rights?
Been in "the sharp end" for a career spanning 38 years. The comment by the "Pilot" was totally uncalled for as it focussed his crew on an issue of pride, instead of taxiing the aircraft.
We all know that finding our way around the airports of the world, has become a task that requires total concentration. A simple "Say taxi instruction, again" would have indicated to the Ground Controller that they were unsure of...
Been in "the sharp end" for a career spanning 38 years. The comment by the "Pilot" was totally uncalled for as it focussed his crew on an issue of pride, instead of taxiing the aircraft.
We all know that finding our way around the airports of the world, has become a task that requires total concentration. A simple "Say taxi instruction, again" would have indicated to the Ground Controller that they were unsure of position and the Controller's intentions, which I am sure would have elicited a positive and more expansive response from the Controller.
In my view, the professional way to approach these scenarios is to follow up with ATC after the aircraft is safely at the gate and shut down.
These communications should never be carried out using the aircraft's comms on open frequencies.
This was a ground accident waiting to happen, which would have been of an unprofessional pilot's making.
OUR JOB is to fly our passengers safely from gate to gate, not to to carry out a performance review of the controllers, who actually have more than one aircraft to guide through the labyrinth, that our airports have become.
My burgers got burnt last night.... I blame Biden for the too!
ATC controller should be more specific when He/She communicate with cockpit crew specifically taxing out active runaway. Safety is first in this field always.
Thank you all.
All the best.
Chris.
These pilots clearly heard ATC, became butt hurt when told to drive around. Then threw their Islamic manipulating superiority complex communication of telling someone to be more professional in response and clearly lied about 4 of them not understanding the ATC. The true problem here was another plane at their gate, which is part of ground control and the lovely port authority. Both, can make certain Emeriates Airlines never has an online departure, free gate...
These pilots clearly heard ATC, became butt hurt when told to drive around. Then threw their Islamic manipulating superiority complex communication of telling someone to be more professional in response and clearly lied about 4 of them not understanding the ATC. The true problem here was another plane at their gate, which is part of ground control and the lovely port authority. Both, can make certain Emeriates Airlines never has an online departure, free gate after landing and a 4 to 12 hour refuel delay. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
The air traffic controllers and ground crew are there to assist in any way they can to clear planes for landing, lift off, navigating busy airports, They should always acknowledge that pilots may not be familiar with the airport. There's no room for disrespect -nor any excuse for it.
These are clearly diversity hires at JFK. There's no room for the "hood" culture in aviation.
I don't see how the instructions could be considered unclear or unprofessional. They only changed due to a gate situation the pilots were also aware of. Maybe they were tired, (which is a worry). Hostile communication and impaired comprehension is usually exhaustion induced. I'm sure the ATC guys are...well...FROM NEW YORK. They may sound impatient and gruff (which makes instructions jarring), but this is specific to the local microculture everyone SHOULD be aware of by...
I don't see how the instructions could be considered unclear or unprofessional. They only changed due to a gate situation the pilots were also aware of. Maybe they were tired, (which is a worry). Hostile communication and impaired comprehension is usually exhaustion induced. I'm sure the ATC guys are...well...FROM NEW YORK. They may sound impatient and gruff (which makes instructions jarring), but this is specific to the local microculture everyone SHOULD be aware of by now. Yet another example of "Sometimes good people can't understand each other"...and why you can't exist in a permanent state of interpreting and screening for disrespect, specific to YOU, in every interaction. Time for people everywhere to try calming down.
The ATC was rude when he told the pilots "i told you to".
That was outright rude. Furthermore, this is a huge aircraft with 4 pilots who need to keep their cool in the cockpit. Frequently changing instructions must be avoided. I am on the side of the pilots in this case, even if I don't like Emirates. This could have escalated. The ATC's tone was rude.
Did the ATC speak in English or American, there is a vast difference.
American lol
What kind of question is that when JFK is at a US airport. Not British
I think all arrogant people in America are happy to have Donald Trump as president because they copy their master.
I'm going to side with the pilots simply because I know New Yorkers.
Did AI write this?
Air traffic control language is tbe officoal language. conducted around the world in English whether it's American or British.
As an Air tmTraffic Controller in the US Air Force and FAA for over 38 years, I don't see any problem with the instructions, because when the tower controller told the aircraft to turn right and then the pilot said the gate was occupied, of course, he then changed the instructions and had the aircraft...
Air traffic control language is tbe officoal language. conducted around the world in English whether it's American or British.
As an Air tmTraffic Controller in the US Air Force and FAA for over 38 years, I don't see any problem with the instructions, because when the tower controller told the aircraft to turn right and then the pilot said the gate was occupied, of course, he then changed the instructions and had the aircraft taxi around the airport, which he also explained in his instructions. This article is actually ridiculous because i've heard a lot worse than even cursing on the air between pilots and controllers, so this was overblown and pretty lame.
For New York or any other controllers, from what I heard, the communications exchange were relatively polite and no anger or accelerated, aggravated speech from all parties. Maybe the ground controller was trying to calm the aircraft pilot down.
Another point you don't ever argue on the frequency... period.
I wouldn't think the controllers wouldn't have time at the 6th busiest airport in the US.
By the way, Dubai is the 2nd busiest airport in the world following Atlanta.
According to what I read in the article, the instructions were confusing.
Editorial: leave your ego out of your job responsibility.
The ease with which this situation could have become profoundly dangerous puts the burden of being clearly understood on ATC. Being the correct party is obviously not as important as no one dying.
Watching " Mayday" series about plane crashes with grandson. In one instance word pass and passed were confused. It contributed to 100 plus deaths. Clear instructions are always needed in anything but especially when you are piloting a plane. Personally I would love to find controller and and give him about 7 whacks on the butt with bamboo cane. Just think how many times a unclear instructions caused havoc in your personal life.
Non Compliance With A Standard Phraseology According to ICAO, brought all these mess
The only thing I see wrong is the clarification of orders, to de escalate the situation the pilot could’ve said I have never been to your airport before so can you be so kind as to guide me, or the controller could have said to the pilot, I am going to have you do this but then it changed so he should’ve said disregard last transmission I need you to do this instead, it’s all in communication
Potentially hazardous situation when pilots distinctly need clarification yet controllers become impatient
They weren't unprofessional at all the only thing that is unprofessional is the idiot that Americans made president if you want to talk professional idiots look no farther than Trump. Once a liar always a liar not to mention a big baby if he doesn't get his own way and no one is as smart as trump gives himself the credit that he is the best, love those atc controllers to have the guts to...
They weren't unprofessional at all the only thing that is unprofessional is the idiot that Americans made president if you want to talk professional idiots look no farther than Trump. Once a liar always a liar not to mention a big baby if he doesn't get his own way and no one is as smart as trump gives himself the credit that he is the best, love those atc controllers to have the guts to make his plane end up in the ocean so he could finally shut up his mouth and stop patting his own back when he really be given a smoother and a long nap while he is supposed to be be listening to the people at these meetings, and let's not get into the golf. These controllers have more brains than your president.
You're an idiot.
Another TDS retard.
You are out of topic and with so much hate to your current President, and sound like you are a Democrat. Please, let's not politicized our discussion and focus more in the incident that involves safety with a foreign carrier. Pretend to be one of the pilots on board. I can see that the Emirate pilot/s could have asked for more clarification instead of stating that ATC was unprofessional and rude. This pilot's statement leaded...
You are out of topic and with so much hate to your current President, and sound like you are a Democrat. Please, let's not politicized our discussion and focus more in the incident that involves safety with a foreign carrier. Pretend to be one of the pilots on board. I can see that the Emirate pilot/s could have asked for more clarification instead of stating that ATC was unprofessional and rude. This pilot's statement leaded to some escalation discussions in between. Obviously, ATC did not like what the pilot commented. I may have felt the same for the ATC.
Wow! That only took a moment to change the narrative to something that has absolutely nothing to do with the article.
So I have heard both the actual audio and read the transcripts as a pilot it sounded perfectly clear to me, but maybe it could have been phrased slightly differently.
The problem is if you do not understand an ATC instruction you must immediately ask for clarification, the pilots did not do that they read the instructions back which standardly is like saying we heard you and understand and will comply. To further compound the...
So I have heard both the actual audio and read the transcripts as a pilot it sounded perfectly clear to me, but maybe it could have been phrased slightly differently.
The problem is if you do not understand an ATC instruction you must immediately ask for clarification, the pilots did not do that they read the instructions back which standardly is like saying we heard you and understand and will comply. To further compound the issue, it's JFK for readers that are unaware it's extremely busy there, traffic is essentially moving like a conveyor belt the slightest hesitation, which from my understanding started at the exit of an active runway into a taxiway can create a pile up effect.
I'm not gonna say the petty argument ATC was conducting was correct,it wasn't.. but simply put there instructions were pretty clear at least in my opinion. JFK controllers will never be the friendliest they deal in a very high stress environment as do most ATC it doesn't give them a right to be petty or aggressive.
The last thing I'll say is up until the point the pilots said "be more professional" to ATC they weren't unprofessional infact for JFK they were pretty nice at that point.
I was an ATCO at LHR for 39 years and NEVER had this problem. Be clear AND never argue on the frequency- it’s too busy.
As a pilot...I can't believe, for such a busy airport, that the controller tied up so much transmit time with this unnecessary discussion, basically making other aircraft wait for ATC services...just silly erogance.
I totally understand the frustration of the Emirates pilots. I was a captain for a major airline and JFK was my least favorite airport to fly into. Some of the controllers are rude and talk too fast.
Faced with a similar situation, I just asked for progressive taxi instructions.
Problem solved and they got the message.
Not at all confusing. 22R was active runway for departure. Move briskly because a 777 was behind. Emirates didn't switch to ground after taxiing half way around the airport. Essentially no comms at a very busy airport. That's a rookie mistake, big leagues at JFK. Controller can't hold your hand.
I'm with pilots on thus one.
Makes me not wanting to fly anywhere especially to JFK! They are both out of line.
Why does displaced americans as we all are so mean and rude now! Everything is blamed on Biden who only served four years and surely the whole American standards cannot be blamed on a four year term as if the craziness going on now is not changing the world! Grow up people and at some point take responsibility for your own actions and stop the blame game! Enough already!
Oh boy, you got it bad . TDS. How about just wait til his term is done , then you can find something else to moan about?
This is Trump's DEI at work. Professionalism and respect is not their forte. By doing this puts everyone at harm in the airport.
Everyone is missing the tower persons instructions. Whether professional or not, youre given solid instructions, and youre to follow, just like anyone in law enforcement, military, (combat), nurse under doctor in surgery, if the direction was clear enough,- which was keep going , dont stop..-why didn't he keep going?. There were not any other instructions to STOP. If youre on a highway and the soeed limit is 55 miles per hour.. And theres an accident,...
Everyone is missing the tower persons instructions. Whether professional or not, youre given solid instructions, and youre to follow, just like anyone in law enforcement, military, (combat), nurse under doctor in surgery, if the direction was clear enough,- which was keep going , dont stop..-why didn't he keep going?. There were not any other instructions to STOP. If youre on a highway and the soeed limit is 55 miles per hour.. And theres an accident, gps directs you different direction, youre just going straight right ? , where the highway drive is about 10 more miles, until gps gives you another direction, maybe 2 miles more to get off at exit, , lets say 20. Its the same thing . If you dont know whats happening , follow the air traffic controllers instruction . Everyone sees he wasnt wrong in the direction. He was spot on. Traffic controller never said to stop., HE EVEN TOLD PILOT, "THERES A PLANE BEHIND YOU, DONT STOP.".HELLO RED LIGHTS FLASHING.. Whoa a plane behind you, - then why did the pilot stop? Traffic Controller guy got frank with pilot , as he called out 2 nd time ," I NEVER TOLD YOU TO STOP" which is TRUE"... As the pilots hands are in the hand of the air traffic controller...with alert that a plane is behind you. Take instructions that you have and work with it. No turns yet, then keep going straight.1
ATC and ground controller acted like kindergarteners.
Several mid air accidents recently at JFK tells me how unprofessional are those working as ATC there, give me a break..
The air traffic controller should have been more professional. These pilots were clearly ARABIC from Dubai and English is not their native language.
Pilot is a Spanish speaker.
New Yorkers don't do directions well. Maybe outsouce to a nice southern state? Delays may grow but conversation would be pleasant. I apologize to the south for stereotyping. You have enough gruff to the point folk. And plenty who would talk your little ol ears off. AI will probably do most of it in a few years anyway.
Hey Vinnie take a Roscoe then cruise a City block and hang a Louie . We have blintzes and Egg Creams in the Hanger.
I have yet to meet a nice person from New York. I dealt with government employees, private companies and individuals and they are rude as hell. They never admit that they're wrong and drag their mistake or rudnes until you apologize. I've been transferred to different people in different departments and the issues were picked up by the other people I was dealing with. Unbelievable. Glad I don't have to call or travel to New York anymore.
Controller= controls runway traffic through open communication to all pilots to dock at pre-designated gate number after landing is complete and final.also the controller directs departing flights after leaving gate and tarmac by directing pilots to a pre-designated available open runway for takeoff...
Controllers remarks were confusing at best
I’m just a lay person, and after listening to the back and forth between the control tower and pilots, how can these pilots not understand such clear instructions?! According to them, one of their colleagues is a native English speaking pilot (lol).
Give me a break. On the side of the controllers all the way on this one!
Fire them immediately!
As a passenger .....makes me wonder about the safety aspect of all this...glad I don't travel to JFK very often.
Those Controllers are working 6 day workweeks.
Transfer these pompous controllers to a rinkydink airport, very dangerous for him to command expediting over a live runway
Professionalism should be on point EVERY TIME. Both sides here could have dropped their egos and communicated respectfully and professionally. POOR EXCUSES. JFK needs to do better if they hold the title for worst tower. Bunch of crybaby losers.
the pilot should have voiced his dissatisfaction after the plane was safely parked, and after the controllers were finished for the day..
Don't risk people's lives over ego
Well, it’s difficult for passengers to be able to tell what’s going on with taxi directions or movements, due totheir limited visibility while seated. But both parties were wrong in their views of what happened. I’d say that an apology by both would be the thing to do if that’s possible.
As an air traffic controller of over 45 years experience I very seldom fine anything good about the way JFK conducts their radio transmissions. However, in this instance the ground controllers did not get frustrated to a point of being rude. They were trying to correct four pilots that should have good grasp of the English language as required by ICAO and the FAA to fly an aircraft that big and that heavy and with...
As an air traffic controller of over 45 years experience I very seldom fine anything good about the way JFK conducts their radio transmissions. However, in this instance the ground controllers did not get frustrated to a point of being rude. They were trying to correct four pilots that should have good grasp of the English language as required by ICAO and the FAA to fly an aircraft that big and that heavy and with four pilots on board not understand taxi instructions is ridiculous. They were not dealing with old Kennedy Steve who is an a****** . I found the both ground controllers were professional and did not get into an argument with anybody on the radio they were trying to correct situation of a very large airport and when they say expedite, that's a word that we use a lot of, expedite their taxi across the runway to avoid confliction with a large aircraft. The second ground controller sounds like he may have been supervisor and trying to correct a situation. I deal with foreign pilots every day of the week some that don't speak very good English at all but they still understand the word expedite, and we still get the point across to them. You have to remember that as air traffic controllers we have procedures that we follow and we're pretty smooth with those when we do them all the time but when something goes south as when the aircraft is asked to expedite his taxi we tend to ramp up a little bit more in our transmissions to get things done in a hurry. Again I very rarely defend the Kennedy controllers because they do tend to be rude on a lot of occasions but not this occasion. I thought they handled the transmissions professionally and with due diligence. I think the Emirates pilots were being a little bit overboard with their assessment of who was being rude and who was just doing their job and trying to get something expedited in the taxi instructions. Air traffic control is taking a lot of heat these days and it seems like everybody just kind of like picks it everything we do that is not correct because we're moving a lot of traffic and a lot of times and people don't listen so we tend to show it in our voice inflection. I think maybe the conversation should have moved to the telephone but again we're short-handed everywhere and we just don't have time to talk to everybody but maybe a phone call would have been appropriate. Thinking about it now if you gave them a phone number to call they probably call anyway. Thank you.
Lots of grammatical mistakes in your post. Expedite was not the problem. Turn right on alpha, go straight on alpha, was the problem. Clearer instruction could have been given. The waze app in my car gives clearer instructions and makes an audible sound when it reverses the earlier instruction. ATC did say "correction," but the ATC should have been more verbose about it, and the pilots who did seem to have a good command of...
Lots of grammatical mistakes in your post. Expedite was not the problem. Turn right on alpha, go straight on alpha, was the problem. Clearer instruction could have been given. The waze app in my car gives clearer instructions and makes an audible sound when it reverses the earlier instruction. ATC did say "correction," but the ATC should have been more verbose about it, and the pilots who did seem to have a good command of the English language would not have been confused. Furthermore there would have no need to "expedite" as the communication problem would have been avoided.
PISS POOR instructions!
What exactly was piss poor? Initial clearance was turn right on Aloha hold short of Delta. When PIC advised ATC that gate was occupied the controller issued STRAIGHT ahead on Alpha. Pilot read back clearance. If he didn't understand he should have asked. Pilot failed to change to Ground Control frequency. Pilot was the only one with attitude. GC was trying to understand the situation.
I was a Navy flight instructor down in the Corpus Christi area back in 1981 to 83. We were shooting approaches at the Corpus airport. I had a couple new Navy students aboard. They were shooting approaches and handling the communications. One student was having a little trouble keeping up. The approach controller was being very upset that the student was being slow responding to his instructions. There was little to no traffic in the...
I was a Navy flight instructor down in the Corpus Christi area back in 1981 to 83. We were shooting approaches at the Corpus airport. I had a couple new Navy students aboard. They were shooting approaches and handling the communications. One student was having a little trouble keeping up. The approach controller was being very upset that the student was being slow responding to his instructions. There was little to no traffic in the area so I did not think the controller's attitude was necessary. I asked if they were busy to which he replied "no". So I said that we would be landing and taxing to the tower and that he was invited to come aboard for a short flight around the area. Two controllers came aboard. I asked if they had been up in the area. They both said no. I asked how long they had been controllers. Both said that they had been controlling for about 6 years. I said that they had probably done lots of flying. That is when they told me that they had never been up in an airplane. I could not believe that two seasoned controllers had never flown. We did about an hour shooting approaches and doing high work around the area. We finally landed back at Corpus and let the two controllers off. They were very appreciative for the flight an agreed that they had a much better understanding of what the student were doing. I hope the FAA has started adding flights to the controller curriculum by now.
I have been travelling for over 60 years and I was just a secretary and administrative assistant. It is unbelievable that they never travelled in a plane and was doing that job. No wonder there are problems in the business.
How many deaths have incompetent rude idiot ATC controllers been responsible for I don't know the exact number but I know it's many. I flew general Aviation for 20 years and ran into a few real idiots. They don't fly. They're oblivious to what's required. Kind of like nurses and doctors nurses know virtually a fraction of what the doctor knows. This is the same
That is NY JFK for you. Rude, disrespectful, condescending, and TOTALLY UNPROFESSIONAL. Need customer service training!!
Not just NY. This is now the American attitude following Trump
DTS is real
What was rude, disrespectful, condescending and totally unprofessional? Pilot failed to follow ATC instructions (Failed to change frequency). Pilot readback the straight ahead clearance. If he was was unclear he should have asked.
These comments display all kinds of biases--anti-NYC, anti-Republican, anti-Democratic, anti-ATC, anti-American, anti-foreigner, etc., etc. That is all irrelevant noise. The only thing that matters here is safety.
The pilots appear not to have asked for clarification, going immediately to snark. ATC reacted negatively and could have provided clearer instructions in the first place.
JFK is a pressure cooker for ATC and pilots, for a variety of reasons. First, the volume of air traffic is insane,...
These comments display all kinds of biases--anti-NYC, anti-Republican, anti-Democratic, anti-ATC, anti-American, anti-foreigner, etc., etc. That is all irrelevant noise. The only thing that matters here is safety.
The pilots appear not to have asked for clarification, going immediately to snark. ATC reacted negatively and could have provided clearer instructions in the first place.
JFK is a pressure cooker for ATC and pilots, for a variety of reasons. First, the volume of air traffic is insane, with 3 major airports in a very small area. Secondly, JFK operations include a lot of foreign carriers. Yes, English is the official language of ATC worldwide but that doesn't change the fact that English proficiency among pilots is highly variable. (Of the 4 pilots on this EK A380, only one was a native English speaker.). ATC needs to keep that in mind when issuing and clarifying instructions. Our lives quite literally depend on it.
Expedite, hold short, continue taxi are some of the ATC instructions that should include a brief traffic info for the pilots. ATC should not assume that their instructions are always understood. On the other hand, telling them to be more professional was uncalled for specially from pilots.
It's exactly what happens in the movies or on tv shows. You can't understand a word the actors are saying. (In the old days, they were trained by the studios in speaking. Now everybody thinks they can be an actor.)
I remember watching that Jordan Peele movie with Keke Palmer. It was ridiculous. I finally had to turn on the closed captions.
The director and people watching along while it's being made or...
It's exactly what happens in the movies or on tv shows. You can't understand a word the actors are saying. (In the old days, they were trained by the studios in speaking. Now everybody thinks they can be an actor.)
I remember watching that Jordan Peele movie with Keke Palmer. It was ridiculous. I finally had to turn on the closed captions.
The director and people watching along while it's being made or during the dailies never even get it: THEY already know the dialogue, so their brains are able to make perfect sense of what is being said. Meanwhile people in the audience can't understand what is going on. They're supposed to be making movies for us, not themselves.
As a retired airline pilot I can assure you that JFK airport can be challenging!
Especially after a long international flight’
Professional curtesy is always welcome!
Why is it, whenever it might be suggested that someone might not be the best at their job and rude that Biden hired them? Do you know this for a fact? Probably not. You do know what they say about assuming, right? Well then, there is your answer.
To be honest, that was nowhere near rude of the JFK Tower Controller. I'm not based in the US, I've flown in to JFK many times, and I have heard far worse. On the scale of things, that communication by the JFK Tower Controller was one of the more polite ones. The clarification by the Ground Controller was also exceedingly polite. The 2 controllers may have been cursing under their breath but what they said...
To be honest, that was nowhere near rude of the JFK Tower Controller. I'm not based in the US, I've flown in to JFK many times, and I have heard far worse. On the scale of things, that communication by the JFK Tower Controller was one of the more polite ones. The clarification by the Ground Controller was also exceedingly polite. The 2 controllers may have been cursing under their breath but what they said on the radio was acceptable. Emirates did slow down with an aircraft on the runway behind them, and they did forget to change frequencies. Moreover, "taxi straight on Alpha" is quite clear. Yes the controller could have given more context but in my opinion Emirates should have taxied straight onto Alpha and allowed the 777 behind them to clear the runway (which they were told) before clarifying. Moreover their gate was occupied so they were in no rush to get to the gate.
Were you there? Did you hear the tone in their voices? If a pilot does not understand their instructions, then they should hVe been more clear or tried again. Arguing is unprofessional, esp if the pilot asked for clarification. Sorry but New Yorkers have a reputation for being rude.
I mean, you can hear the tone of their voices in the video. I didn't personally see what wasn't clear about straight on A, hold short of D. That said, given that that takes you all the way around the airport, I'm guessing the Emirates crew wasn't expecting that and saw KD first, so when the controllers asked what part of the instructions weren't clear, the Emirates crew could have clarified that they weren't sure...
I mean, you can hear the tone of their voices in the video. I didn't personally see what wasn't clear about straight on A, hold short of D. That said, given that that takes you all the way around the airport, I'm guessing the Emirates crew wasn't expecting that and saw KD first, so when the controllers asked what part of the instructions weren't clear, the Emirates crew could have clarified that they weren't sure if they were meant to go around the airport or hold short of KD. The biggest issue is with the Emirates A380 stopped, the British Airways 777 behind was now stopped in the middle of the runway, and that runway is also being used for both take-off and landing, so that runs the risk of an aircraft having to go around.
That was clear. It was rude... I told you.. He said.. With a tone.... That was very rude
When I run into rude controllers i always ask the same question: “just for clarification, are you down there because I’m up here, or am I up here because you’re down there?” It’s also important to remember that when pilots make mistakes, pilots (and passengers) die. When controllers make mistakes, pilots and passengers die. Most controllers are professional and cordial. A few go out of their way to be condescending jerks.
Pilots should have reported the incident directly to FAA since situation may have been disruptive and otherwise endanger other Traffic on TAXIWAYS
Nose up Americans . What a Shame
Anything goes wrong Biden, not xx.
When you are wrong ADMITTING it is professional! You gave multiple instructions to flight Crew.
The JFK controller was very professional and articulated his instructions clearly. Not sure why the Emirates crew called out the controller and only embarrassed themselves in doing so.
The US ATC forget they have strong 'non-neutral' accents; peculiar to the USA. International fight crew are usually not native English speakers. Therefore ATC should be guarded, or more aware, with how they speak and enunciate clearly. I think the Emirates flight crew were really very nice about the cheeky arrogance of the ground controllers. My father flew and later was ATC; into SE England and the southern major airports, from over Belgium. I would...
The US ATC forget they have strong 'non-neutral' accents; peculiar to the USA. International fight crew are usually not native English speakers. Therefore ATC should be guarded, or more aware, with how they speak and enunciate clearly. I think the Emirates flight crew were really very nice about the cheeky arrogance of the ground controllers. My father flew and later was ATC; into SE England and the southern major airports, from over Belgium. I would love to know his take on this, but too late; he's not here now. Finally, the ground control were clearly confused and needed to send the poor travellers right around the entire airport, after messing up their first instruction.
How would enunciating more clearly have helped? The pilot repeated both sets of instructions back to the controller, indicating that he had correctly heard and understood them. Therefore, enunciation was not the issue.
Further, the controllers were not confused, they sent the plane around the entire airport on purpose to keep it out of the way while it was waiting for its gate to become available. And when they got all the way around...
How would enunciating more clearly have helped? The pilot repeated both sets of instructions back to the controller, indicating that he had correctly heard and understood them. Therefore, enunciation was not the issue.
Further, the controllers were not confused, they sent the plane around the entire airport on purpose to keep it out of the way while it was waiting for its gate to become available. And when they got all the way around and held at D, their gate was still not available. Now they were parked on A on the other side of D, where they were out of the way of all of the other flights that needed to use D to get to or from the runway. An A380 is an enormous aircraft, if it's going to be parked somewhere then it needs to be out of the way.
Nose up Americans . What a Shame
In America, expect to understand English. It’s the first language.
Like all regulatory entities, there’s the human element. As a 30 year pilot I know better than to comment or argue. That’s not what the control frequency is for. Smile and comply.
The non-native english speaking pilots were just Trumped. Welcome to America. This is now the acceptable attitude and tone.
I can't understand why the air traffic controllers would continue to argue with the pilots, when one miss with the plane could cost hundreds of lives. Some people in US seem to be very arrogant.
You don’t expedite un-clear instructions. That’s how people die!
Unprofessional individual in higher places ruin the world, it ruins the country, people and our culture.
By using the condescending phrase, to be more professional, the pilot lit a fire. In fact, THAY should have been more understanding. Nor did they switch to ground control when instructed. No sir, your conclusions are musplaced.
In a nut shell; ATC can be rude sometimes when they get overwhelmed and stressed out. Some controllers always remain professional, while some not so much. I try to remain focused and not let another person's attitude affect mine; I'm only in control of how I respond. But yes, controllers at some of these larger northeastern airports can be rude and down right unprofessional.
The pilots should have let it go and focus at...
In a nut shell; ATC can be rude sometimes when they get overwhelmed and stressed out. Some controllers always remain professional, while some not so much. I try to remain focused and not let another person's attitude affect mine; I'm only in control of how I respond. But yes, controllers at some of these larger northeastern airports can be rude and down right unprofessional.
The pilots should have let it go and focus at the task at hand. Both could have been more professional in this situation.
Most ATC that I've had to deal with are holes.
The controller was unprofessional.
Both sides in this case have fault. If confused the aircrew should have asked for clearer instructions or stated they were confused. The tower in frustration got forcefully tones instead of realizing a language barrier might be a problem. English is the international language of ATC but that doesn’t mean everyone has the same understanding! As a retired controller of 28 years working in Europe and the states I encountered this first hands
This article stinks of being written by AI.
The ground controllers here were at fault, they need to have more patience and less ego.
ATC do think that they are the elite of humans. It's their opinion that the rest of us are stupid. I've worked at airfield all over the US. Very rarely did ever meet anyone that treated Contracting with any respect. The most professional group is at Indianapolis and Sioux Falls.
The ground controllers here were at fault, they need to have more patience and less ego.
Perhaps if the Pilot started by saying something like "In the interests of clarity could you please repeat your instructions clearly? Thank you." That might be better than accusing him of not being professional.
The tower here was at fault, they need to have more patience and less ego.
The tower was indeed very unprofessional!
ATC were forced to work without pay when corrupt rich republicans decided to give themselves a long PAID vacation labeled a government shutdown. Plus GOP allowed a Qatar jet bribe for the OLD felon pediphile, where the majority of 9-11 hijackers came from. Maybe they lost a loved one there.
You stupid liberals.
Typical american style ,Arrogant
Air traffic should never question anyone stating they are not clear on instructions!
Overpaid, arrogant narcissists!
Prior ATC here. Though 30 years removed. In my opinion, ATC#1 completely unprofessional. And I would use "rude" as a good descriptor. I do semi-applaud ATC#2 for attempting to clarify and perhaps smooth over the interaction with ATC#1, but really should have just issued taxi instructions and told the pilots to call upstairs if they wished to discuss further. Most folks here likely do not fully comprehend the pressures of the ATC world. There is...
Prior ATC here. Though 30 years removed. In my opinion, ATC#1 completely unprofessional. And I would use "rude" as a good descriptor. I do semi-applaud ATC#2 for attempting to clarify and perhaps smooth over the interaction with ATC#1, but really should have just issued taxi instructions and told the pilots to call upstairs if they wished to discuss further. Most folks here likely do not fully comprehend the pressures of the ATC world. There is a very specific reason they have a mandatory retirement age and it certainly is not from staring out a 10+ story window at idle tail numbers.
Safety is MOST important so Language styles and Directions MUST be CLEAR. Don't accept Rude Confused Instrictiond , Can Cause Lives being LOST. IF your Overworked or have a lousy unprofessional Personality U will be Reported.
EMIRATES, listen up !!!
One proven way is “Listening The Forgotten Skill” great book! it’s a sure way for employers to use these skills for teaching how to communicate effectively. I’d been confused too if I was the pilot.
It is really sad and worrisome how JFK ATC are? There should be a level of empathy and consideration for pilots of different nationalities. There is no need for egos as they are all on the same team. The only goal is to move passengers safely from point A to point B whether in the air or ground.
Professional pilot here, By not expediting their taxi speed as instructed the Emirates pilots were causing a 777 to remain on a runway which is a hazard, there was nothing unclear about the controller instructions.
Just for historical perspective a misunderstanding of ATC instruction by a KLM pilot on the ground caused the worst air disaster in history so busy controllers can be a little abrupt when clear instructions are not complied with.
The...
Professional pilot here, By not expediting their taxi speed as instructed the Emirates pilots were causing a 777 to remain on a runway which is a hazard, there was nothing unclear about the controller instructions.
Just for historical perspective a misunderstanding of ATC instruction by a KLM pilot on the ground caused the worst air disaster in history so busy controllers can be a little abrupt when clear instructions are not complied with.
The controllers did nothing wrong, the pilots should practice their English if they are going to fly into JFK.
For God's sake, I've had enough of JFK controller "flexing their wings"! Above all people, it's SAFETY not EGO. Do your d*rn job professionally, not behaving like you are God over taxiway or gates. And yes, please RETRAIN their mannerism and professionalism. NYC or not NYC attitude (scoff), everyone is under pressure but don't forget your manners and safety! What a beneath attitude.
Jesus the entire tone of this “article” (garbage opinion piece) is absolutely ridiculous! The ONLY unprofessional behavior was from the pilots. If ATC instructions are not clear you ask for clarification NOT act like their boss and criticize their job performance multiple times while being up potential language barriers, all flight crew must speak fluent English. No international pilot flying into JFK hasn’t been there in years or even months, that’s a ludicrous excuse to...
Jesus the entire tone of this “article” (garbage opinion piece) is absolutely ridiculous! The ONLY unprofessional behavior was from the pilots. If ATC instructions are not clear you ask for clarification NOT act like their boss and criticize their job performance multiple times while being up potential language barriers, all flight crew must speak fluent English. No international pilot flying into JFK hasn’t been there in years or even months, that’s a ludicrous excuse to suggest especially when there were FOUR pilots! One of these jobs has very regulated hours, is highly respected, has all the latest technology and is never under staffed and the other is overworked, underpaid, not respected, uses outdated technology, and is dealing with hundreds of landings and takeoffs and doesn’t have time for extraneous instructions…I’m going to side with ATC over this arrogant pilot, who think he’s the ATC boss, every single time.
Lack of professionalism! Pure and simple ! Plus a total disrespect for the pilots and the passengers
Did the controllers trained at Trump University?
Didn't graduate. Majored in BSology
It's commonly known that Americans are a bit dumb
It’s far more commonly known foreigners especially from the Middle East are entitled jerks…
Talk about rude
If there's a misunderstanding
from ATCs to Pilots in docking a jet.
You would think ATCs would adjust there language to common street talk . Or find what works in communication.
you said in very right.
Confusion is not a sin . The controller should have been more clear and the pilot should have asked for clarification not denigrated his job performance. Both parties were guilty of a lack of professional conduct. Manners would have been a good idea at this point.
It’s not ATCs job to be polite it’s to provide quick instructions to the pilots to get them safely to their gate…
I get it... Tone and attitude, but even if the larger plan doesn't make sense, if given an instruction at a busy airport you follow it even if it initially doesn't make sense to you, except for safety of course....some airports don't have the room for big jets to sit and wait.
Anytime a pilot asks for a verification it should be given professionally and clearly. Mistakes on taxi ways cause accidents. a controllers main function is to prevent accidents. Do it with integrity and patience.
The whole thing was so unprofessional and who suffers the most in this process are the passengers.
If it was an emergency situation, I can understand but why in the world a directive was given to taxi in one gate and then changed repeatedly?Somebody have to answer this
Because the ATC doesn’t control every other plane on the ground and other ATC were directing planes in a manner that got in this planes way, twice which is extremely common.
The tower controller issued a set of instructions assuming the gate was clear and the aircraft could go straight in to the gate. When he found out that the gate was occupied, he issued a different set of instructions. We don't know if the ground controller issued instructions to somebody else that would have caused an issue, taking into consideration the fact that there were taxiway closures around the airport. Additionally, the Emirates A380 stopping...
The tower controller issued a set of instructions assuming the gate was clear and the aircraft could go straight in to the gate. When he found out that the gate was occupied, he issued a different set of instructions. We don't know if the ground controller issued instructions to somebody else that would have caused an issue, taking into consideration the fact that there were taxiway closures around the airport. Additionally, the Emirates A380 stopping meant the British Airways 777 behind that was instructed to cross runway 22R was now stopped on the runway, which means if another aircraft was landing on runway 22R, they run the risk of having to go around.
It's humorous the hate in some people today. Somehow, a jerk on here attributed this to the controller being hired by Biden! REALLY?!? How did our Bucko know this? And even if true, what kind of small mindedness would link the two? The Trumpettes just can't get enough of their "blame Biden" mantra. It's petty, stupid, and boring lyrics old. Get a brain!
That and flippantly tossing out the "race card," too. Internet anonymity at its finest. And a fine case of ACQ as if they somehow "know" the rigors of the job, also, for good measure. Now, now, there I go ACQing their poor attempt at ACQ. And I am anonymous to boot. Shoot!
Same goes for the hate you just showed in replying! And get used to it, you left radical dems are going nowhere in 2028, you keep getting more hateful and sensible Dems are leaving the party every day.
Being right, even when you are wrong has become a national pastime . In
certain professions, that might be dangerous, even fatal. Why?
Typical New Yorker manners...Is there anything good in New York besides Katz's Delicatessen?
Tower and ground controllers work side by side. They just have different jobs at any airport. The ground controller could hear the tower controller talking to the pilots.
Apparently everyone is under a lot of stress. So the environment conducive to to stress related issues. I don’t blame anybody but at the same time is not professional to try to prove that you are right.
This exposè should be forwarded to FAA & Kennedy for review. Perhaps additional training or written reprimand is in order.
If the pilot did not understand the instructions, he should ask for clarification or repeat the instructions. It does not make sense to sit in the cockpit asking each other what was said when a request to repeat the taxi instructions would clear up the confusion.
I'm a civilian and female that never worked in this kind of environment and I understood the atc order, when you are under pressure it's very hard to be polite, the pilots should have asked for clarification if he didn't understand the atc besides the Middle East peoples specially the one that are a bit high up think that we are rude when you give them specific instructions, English is the world working language and...
I'm a civilian and female that never worked in this kind of environment and I understood the atc order, when you are under pressure it's very hard to be polite, the pilots should have asked for clarification if he didn't understand the atc besides the Middle East peoples specially the one that are a bit high up think that we are rude when you give them specific instructions, English is the world working language and if you go to an airport like JFK then you should speak English fluently, ever work under pressure, it's not fun and it's not fun repeating yourself, here i am with the atc guy,,,,
When the president of a country is a brainless maniac and talks as drunk truck driver or drugs addict on street then what could anyone expect from air controllers ? what idiots are leading this great country with sick mentalities
Why does some idiot always have to bring politics into it. It matter what moron is in office. If the controller would have said "straight on A, cross D and proceed around entire airport, stop short of D until your gate is clear". Easy and clear enough. STOP politics into everything...idiots.
Politics is the key point here nowadays, when the system is broken and corrupt then everything runs bad from top to bottom, look to high level appointees by the current administration where talent isn’t a priority anymore but everything runs by people who don’t know and don’t have respect for the system and law then lower level people getting appointed by those high level incompetent people and it makes the entire system worse,
With s 777 right behind on rwy crossing, the Super could have easily caused a go around, straight ahead on Alpha hold short of Delta is a pretty simple instructions, clear short and concise. Super told Controller he was unprofessional, in this case BS.
amen to all. the magas are the worst and this sandra is one of the worst out there. i have a feeling she must've been overlooked when trying to get a job/promotion so since she sees herself as the smartest person on earth, she was passed over for DEI, which is everyone else.
and she's isn't racist. she's an F-ing BIGOT.
Entitlement and presumptive ATC. Pilots need to understand ATC Clearly to and if not they have the right to question and not act, until they are clear. This can be disastrous. ATC is almost compelled to pilots "stupid" questions request for clarity because they would want to do something they may of misunderstood
Pilots here think is better than the atc so he don't ask them to repeat the instructions, well Emirates when you go to NY you do as the N.Yorker,,,
The air traffic controller is a bully and extremely lack of professionalism.
AT NO POINT DID THE PILOT ASK THE CONTROLLER TO SAY AGAIN OR IS THAT A RIGHT OR LEGT TURN ON ALPHA. PILOTS ARE REQUIRED TO HAVE A MAP OF THE AIRPORT VISIBLE TO THEM SO AS TO FOLLOW INSTRUCTIONS. AS THE PILOT SO NOTRD THAT THERE WERE FOUR IN THE COCKPIT AND NO ONE QUESTIONED THE CONTROLLER ABOUT THE INSTRUCTIONS. Four Pilot errors for not asking for clarification.. comments from a former CONTROLLER who has worked at EWR, LGA and JFK
I listen to JFK on a livestream often. There are some controllers who are definitely rude at times. One most of the time. Whether it's a language barrier I don't know or a stressful job. In this case I do not believe the first controller was rude at all. The pilot said that all four pilots could not understand what he said. My take is that they only heard what they wanted to hear. Also I wasn't aware all four pilots were listening to ATC all at once. Just sayin.
Flew a sm plane and know about different airports numbers rules etc. Had a chuckle over article. Both just doing their jobs. Safety first. Pressure.
Thank you 4139 xray
The instruction to montir ground was superseded by a following clearance, they should not have changed frequency, and they didn’t. Confusion happens.
I agreevwith TravlinWilly and Mark F. JFK is know for their unpleasant and problems conveying clear, concise information to pilots. This is a typical JFK story that shows lack of professionalism and concern for the safety of people they are responsible for. The My salary is Eight Figures regarding Joe Biden's responsibility for JFK is moronic. Not even funny and you sound like a turd.
I read the story in it's entirety - I have traveled extensively in my lifetime , I am not in aviation , but wish to make a suggestion - when foreign pilots arrive at their destination and are given instructions - please speak a little bit slower and clearer - so that you can be understood.
Yeah, it doesn't matter one bit who was president once. It's more relevant that the ATCs in that area grew up in the NYC area, and that's the culture there. I would think Boston is a close second. I would bet this almost never happens in Indianapolis or Kansas City.
Why, they should learn English language period
Safety is priority #1. There is a clear miscommunication and the urge to make a point against another based on ego seem to prevail. Rise above that! When in doubt "step on the brakes and slow down". Where was the Controllers' direct Superior when all this was happening? There exists a direct channel to the Voice Control Supervisor. Use it.
I read one commenting that the instructions were in fact, clear but....."further instructions should...
Safety is priority #1. There is a clear miscommunication and the urge to make a point against another based on ego seem to prevail. Rise above that! When in doubt "step on the brakes and slow down". Where was the Controllers' direct Superior when all this was happening? There exists a direct channel to the Voice Control Supervisor. Use it.
I read one commenting that the instructions were in fact, clear but....."further instructions should have been added." which means the original instructions were NOT clear. Run the black box.
Could manpower issues, obsolete equipment, sleep deprivation and lack of experience, training and maturity be factored in?
Typical New Yorkers. They hold a tight grasp on their rudeness until they move to Florida. Once down south, it only takes one trip to the ER for them to suddenly find a sense of dcency and civility.
I worked not in ATC but analyzing ATC systems in the technical center near Atlantic City.
These were the rudest individuals I have ever worked with as well as with transportation security across the street.
A few managers were former ATCs. Most of staff were referrals, interns turned full -time. The culture was referred to as incestuous and "country club". Staff found their niche and stayed there, particularly aggressive toward management and more...
I worked not in ATC but analyzing ATC systems in the technical center near Atlantic City.
These were the rudest individuals I have ever worked with as well as with transportation security across the street.
A few managers were former ATCs. Most of staff were referrals, interns turned full -time. The culture was referred to as incestuous and "country club". Staff found their niche and stayed there, particularly aggressive toward management and more stability. By finding a delegation management position, there was too low turnover and the place was stagnant. Some managers tried to "out" employees after FEVS surveys where there may have been low scores submitted.
Tribalism, group think, micromanagement, grandiosity, undercutting, triangulation, and Machiavellian were woven into the system there.
Those promoted were the moat aggressive, strategic, and kiss up / kick down type.
Those of less obsessive and less willing to acquiesce to the childishness but more technically skilled were eventually marginalized and retaliated against.
My knowledge of statistics and progressive political writings outside of work drew resentment and undercutting. After 15 years between the two organizations, I left because of thw misues of statistics, retaliation culture, poor QC, and mainly poor ethics.
There should be no acceptable reason for ATC's behaviour! They are handling nd responsible for people's lives!
Not winning a playground argument with people less familiar with their territory.
Totally UNPROFESSIONAL!ROBERT
The instructions were very clear, not confusing. The controller could have added that he wished them to round the airport however if they simply followed direction that would have happened anyway. The concern was the expidite, when atc tells you to expiite after just crossing a runway and they clarify that there is a 777 behind you..... this is when you move yourself and make room......then ask questions if need be.
I dont use jfk. Too many chances for a disaster
Ordinary person here, so my questions is why the hell are we using horrible quality radio waves when if we know where all the planes are and we know the layouts of the airports, why don't we have a basic map of the airport and the Atc pinpoints where they want the plans to go and the pilots have a screen that tells them all the details. They just follow the prompts. A Google navigation...
Ordinary person here, so my questions is why the hell are we using horrible quality radio waves when if we know where all the planes are and we know the layouts of the airports, why don't we have a basic map of the airport and the Atc pinpoints where they want the plans to go and the pilots have a screen that tells them all the details. They just follow the prompts. A Google navigation map for planes. Pilots could also see the planes and ground crews around them digitally and visually. Seems like an easy thing to do nowadays. Just use the audio for really necessary communication.
Most planes do have maps of the airports. The reason for the radio is for times like this when instructions need to change in an instant. Atc is moving and flowing, rerouting and dealing with 100s of things at once, this is why raido is still the best method.
The original instructions that the tower controller issued was based on the assumption that the gate was open. It's the ramp controllers that handle the gates, so the tower controller wouldn't know anything about the gates. When the Emirates crew informed the tower controller that their gate was occupied, the instructions changed. The instructions changed again for some unknown reason, though it's possible that the ground controller issued instructions to another aircraft that would have...
The original instructions that the tower controller issued was based on the assumption that the gate was open. It's the ramp controllers that handle the gates, so the tower controller wouldn't know anything about the gates. When the Emirates crew informed the tower controller that their gate was occupied, the instructions changed. The instructions changed again for some unknown reason, though it's possible that the ground controller issued instructions to another aircraft that would have caused a conflict given taxiway closures. Given how fast the instructions changed, I would say this falls under the category of really necessary communications.
Written by one of the pilots**
Grow up snowflakes. Stop being bitches
I think there needs to be more controllers and they need more time off.
I think the air controller and ground controller should both be fired, they were at fault and could have caused a collision, and if I was yhat.pilot, when I landed I would have waited on that asshat and we would have had a major control problem
Agree. But if black, will cry racism. And I am unable to hear this. Tablet is acting up.
STFU racist Biatch.
The JFK AtC were being unprofessional and rude, more or less arrogant. Its a busy live runway and they need to give clear precise instructions, there are hundreds of lives at stake here. They need to get over themselves and do their job with great accuracy. They have to treat each landings as if brand new to the airport. They are the pilots second set of eyes out there. These JFK ATCs attitudes are a danger to everyday flights.
Agree. But if black, will cry racism. And I am unable to hear this. Tablet is acting up.
Racist kunt.
ATC must understand that these pilots have flown for many hours and are anxious to get to their destination/gate...therefore ATCmust be absolutely clear with their instructions and take it easy on these pilots..
There are a lot of folks arm-chair quarterbacking a job a job at which they would fail miserably and get a lot of people killed. Slowing down or stopping while crossing an active runway is setting yourself up for a very bad day…
JFK control taxi some to penalty corners too!!!
Wonder if their suicide rates are high!!!!
This kind of behavior from trafic controlers must not be taken lightly
They will be targating this pilot next time around,
Theese will lead in to a accident which the passengers are the onece who are going to suffer ,
Agree. But their childish, unprofessional, attitude can cost lives.
But, Biden and company think that it is fine.
da fuq does Sleepy Joe have to do with any of this?
Ignore. the stupid ignorant maga person, like her boss blames everyone but themselves for the problems in our country. Rude ATC's have been around long before Biden or her boss. probably the controller's boss too.
FAA retired atcs after 32 years. Controllers were unprofessional. Have the pilots phone the tower and scold them then.
I think that there needed to be clarification in the beginning by the ATC once he wanted the Emirates pilot to traverse completely around the airport using taxiway A. He failed to that, then tried to have the Emirates pilot expedite his position b/c of traffic behind him. Its clear from the audio, that ATC is a highly stressed position where they are constantly bombarded with arrivals & departures. And I believe if a pilot...
I think that there needed to be clarification in the beginning by the ATC once he wanted the Emirates pilot to traverse completely around the airport using taxiway A. He failed to that, then tried to have the Emirates pilot expedite his position b/c of traffic behind him. Its clear from the audio, that ATC is a highly stressed position where they are constantly bombarded with arrivals & departures. And I believe if a pilot is not used to JFK, or it's been some time since their last landing there, that asking for clarification is not a wrong thing to do. I believe the ATC AND the Ground Controller made their actions seem like their 'high & mighty' by indicating "what, you don't understand instructions?", "You don't get it?" "What's wrong with you?" Clearly could have used a little more professionalism, but yes it is a highly stressed environment.
New Yorkers are the rudest people in the world
Funny. I’m there all the time. I find ATL to be worse.
That's everywhere. You're area is not s country of angels.
Flock off.
The attitude these folks give, just from what Ben has shared on the blog, is wildly unprofessional. I can't imagine being in that line of work and not wanting to be professional. Does this kind of thing happen at major airports anywhere else in the world?
Agreed! New Yorkers (ATC) need to lighten up and lose the pissy attitude! They don’t seem to realize that to the rest of civilized society they are indeed coming across as rude. Always seems to be New York in general, and JFK in particular. I have no “horse in this race” so this is a completely neutral viewpoint.
The tower and ground personnel were fucking rude...
Yes, from what I reading. Tablet will not let me listen to this. All settings for sound are correct.
Agreed all involved must be clearly understood. Period. No further discussion safety always rules the day with air traffic.
You did say that they were "NY" ATC's! People from the NYC area compete with people from Montreal to see who can be the rudest and the unfriendliest people in the US.
They are American, they assume they are always correct. That’s Americans for you, unprofessional and probably uneducated!
Not true. Three are good and bad all over the world. Most of the bad live and work in New York City
You have an issue overall here or don’t get around the country much?
TPA? Awful. ATL a nightmare. Have you tried the people in bama? Lived there 20 years. Not so nice in plenty of places. And very nice in many. Dallas no thanks.
Honolulu driving. HI, and 2? No. Doris just doesn’t like NY period. :P Try Newark. BWI any large US airport. Blech
But ATC at JFK or any ATC job currently, the stress has to be ridiculous.
Many are in NC now. Unfortunately.
Racist kunt.
You wouldn't make it here a week. Soft.
Woah
Yet, the global elites insist on crowding our colleges and universities with their sense of entitlement and arrogance. Your comment bears zero relation to reality. However, NYC is an exception. You think it's bad now? Wait for the communist mayor to begin his "adjustments" in a few weeks. You will think NYC is now in post WW2 Eastern Europe.
I just passed through JFK EVERYONE is very or somewhat RIDE and condescending WE hated the experience. We plan to AVOID that airport at all cost.
I had several arguments like this with ATC. One thing you can do is to ask for officer’s name and let them spell it out. That shows authority and calms them down. Happy Landings.
Clearly DEI hires under Obama/Biden.
Absolutely. Unfortunately, I was unable to hear the video.
Biden administration hiring unprofessional, unqualified, DEI who have issues with being corrected.
While qualified people with the intellect and training are overlooked.
I read on line about a white man, who was overlooked for someone who is not. This is a really important job, and those two controllers need to be written up for unprofessional behavior.
Agree.
Nobody is as dumb AF as maga cultists who have no original thoughts of their own.
what? where does ANY of this indicate DEI higher?
the magas being the stupid people they are don't understand how DEI worked. the people don't have to be hired, just given a chance to interview, test... Also, they clearly don't know how many years of training it takes to be an air traffic controller.
the rude tower and ground controllers are way too comfortable in their positions to be anywhere near being DEI hires, if there were such a thing.
I'm thinking these magas would be the DEI hires.
Don't make things up. Look up the ATC. Is public record. He was hired 2017 and has probably more experience and certifications than you or me.
Instructions for docking gate should have only been passed when that space was available. Which clearly is not the case. Besides that, no spare parking spot was there. This is a case of serious negligence in part of JFK ATC. But then, their standards are based on collision avoidance. Like it happened in DC.
You Caaaaannn 't ALWAYS ge t -WHAT * Youuu WANTTTT!!! Bu t, -If * You Try, SOME TIME * Youuuuuu g e t WHAT * YOU NEED??? MERCY!! HAPPY HAN CUNA!!! NAAAANNNNIIIIINAAAANAAAANAAANNNAAAANAAANANANIIIINANANANANIIIISLEEP BEAUTIFUL!! SWEET DREAMS)!! GOODNIGHT!!
based on the Left party standards u shouldn't use the word unprofessional just the same as illegal ! because it might hurt their feelings !
Yes, they hate being told what they are. Should have apologized for their unclear, directions. And having his buddy jump in.....more DEI.
Like children. These intellectually inferior controllers could cause an accident on both the runway and the air.
"They can't handle the truth ."
Sandra is a racist Kunt.
I know, right?
In my opinion. The air traffic controllers should have simply start off with " 'Flt XYZ' we need to divert you and have you taxi around in a DIFFEENT direction from the congestion (or to avoid the congestion) until a Gate becomes avaliable. We going to avoid or steer clear of run-way D" JFK ATCs, SAFETY, CLARITY and more UNDERSTANDING & COMPASSION to our neighboring Flight pilots coming in from neigoing countries is of the...
In my opinion. The air traffic controllers should have simply start off with " 'Flt XYZ' we need to divert you and have you taxi around in a DIFFEENT direction from the congestion (or to avoid the congestion) until a Gate becomes avaliable. We going to avoid or steer clear of run-way D" JFK ATCs, SAFETY, CLARITY and more UNDERSTANDING & COMPASSION to our neighboring Flight pilots coming in from neigoing countries is of the upmost importance. Being Arguementiv is unprofession when hundreds of flight are still on there way in and need your Watch eye andc clarity for direction. ATCs I know know you job is very stressful at times. Just take a deep breath or two and continue to be blessed. As an American I appreciate an respect commend all ATCs and Pilots. Please just be patient with each other.
I respect the ones who got their jobs on training. The ones hired under Biden, are DEI's. And those hires were on purpose.
Everytime there is a plane crash, or accident on the runway or right after takeoff, that is the first thing I think of.
This is a very important job. Those unprofessional ATC's can cost people their lives. Please write up, and give more training. Because unclear directions can cause accidents.
I respect the ones who got their jobs on training. The ones hired under Biden, are DEI's. And those hires were on purpose.
Everytime there is a plane crash, or accident on the runway or right after takeoff, that is the first thing I think of.
This is a very important job. Those unprofessional ATC's can cost people their lives. Please write up, and give more training. Because unclear directions can cause accidents.
Plus, it makes the professional ATC's look bad. DEI needs to go.
Of course, DEI the first thing Sandra thinks of. That's how racist minds operate.
They don't get any dumber than low IQ maga cultists.
Take your meds and go to sleep.
amen to all. the magas are the worst and this sandra is one of the worst out there. i have a feeling she must've been overlooked when trying to get a job/promotion so since she sees herself as the smartest person on earth, she was passed over for DEI, which is everyone else.
and she's isn't racist. she's an F-ing BIGOT.
I always thought that communication was a core principal of the aviation industry. If the pilots were confused then seeking clarification was the appropriate thing to prevent an accident. Clearly the JFK ATC’s are not prioritizing safety and instead trying to hurry everyone along which will lead to issue’s. This is all moot as ATC’s have declined in ability and professionalism since the Reagan broke up their union.
Duane, 100% agree with your comment about communication and seeking clarification. It's an accident waiting to happen if people are rushed when they are not clear or scolded for seeking clarification.
(Speaking as a former ATC and current pilot.)
I flew up there 30 years ago and they were nasty then.
Its not funny when its involve big plane full of people, and tired pilots after 13-14 hours of flighs
..after a long trans ocean flight, the last thing you would not like to have is dealing with a snobbish ground controller giving ambiguous taxi instructions ...
Exactly. And he and his buddy arguing with the pilots. Tell me everything that I need to know. Biden's DEI hires.
you and your DEI's. you must be secretly in love with someone you believe to be one.
give it up. as dumb as you believe them to be, he/she/it is smart enough to stay away from your evilness.
I'm not a pilot nor an ATC controller but if a person with a role that responsible to control airport traffic isn't letting go about small mildly serious issues and insisted that they were doing nothing wrong shouldn't have the job in the first place but this is JFK airport we're talking about here.... So...... What else can we do about it?
Who cares!!! Hey, whose gonna fry this fish up I’m hungry?
ATC should be disciplined and fired if they dint like their job or have patience. They at JFK especially don't understand the big respinsibility pilots carry while sitting in a cockpit of a huge A380. Many of those ATC loosers did not even come close to huge plane like that. They don't understand that gigant can't stop or turn a a dime. After the super long flight pilots may be tired so ATC should be...
ATC should be disciplined and fired if they dint like their job or have patience. They at JFK especially don't understand the big respinsibility pilots carry while sitting in a cockpit of a huge A380. Many of those ATC loosers did not even come close to huge plane like that. They don't understand that gigant can't stop or turn a a dime. After the super long flight pilots may be tired so ATC should be more professional. Im waiting for a day whan finally AI will fully control Air traffic instead of those ATC loosers which will loose thair jobs.
Why, they should learn English language period and it will be good to have AI because you can't spell English,
Sounds like some big egos got in the way of professionalism? Thankfully, no ground disaster occured as a result of this display of juvenille 'tennis match of wits.' Remember, many, MANY lives depend on your clear mind and precise focus. All the best.
Safety safety safety is the one is the number one priority here good thing nobody got hurt above wing and belowing with my 20 years of experience in aviation JFK just needs more gates to handle this special A380 not every aircraft can park at any gate.
I would trust the Emirates pilots that are above all things, VERY professional
I agree
The tower is stuck in a rut, common courtesy to visitors needed!
Exactly
Bottom line? How about reinstating the ATC’s that were foolishly fired. It’s pretty clear all of them are under an unnecessary amount of pressure and it’s short sighted to make conditions worse. It’s not rocket science. Just good management.
On one hand JFK is extremely busy, so one tiny issue here causes more backlog everywhere. On the hand, an A380 needs extra space, time and all that TLC.
Its also a personality clash. ATC and pilots, all alpha types, everyone wants to have a pissing contest.
Giving taxi instructions at a busy airport is difficult under the best of circumstances but visiting pilots are OUR GUESTS and should be afforded Every courtesy even to the point of apology for giving unclear or confusing instructions. That would be professional. In my opinion both the ATC AND GROUND CONTROLLERS SHOULD BE ADMONISHED.
I fly Emirates regularly.
But luckily I would never, ever, never fly to the USA.
This merely confirms my feelings.
Is that why there's accidents at airports
It could be a factor. DEI needs to go.
Why, they should learn English language period and it will be good to have AI because you can't spell English, all you can say is DEI,,,
New Yorkers always have to be right!
They are Democrats! Enough said!
Why bring politics into this discussion? You are what is causing the U.S. problems. Go back into your hole.
Do not do this. This is not a poliitical issue. It is about CLARITY abd understanding that everyone isn't American flying into JFK or any other American airport. Let try to be be civilized and fair. NO AYNMOSITY
I frankly didn't find anything confusing in the set of instructions given by the controller. Actually, the pilot on the radio seemed unsure of himself.
You are correct. Unclear ATC instructions leading to hesitancy. Something negated by a more thoughtful and professional ATC.
What can the poor pilots expect. The ground staff were trained by Trump, it’s a wonder they weren’t sent Russia or the likes of.
No,, if they were trained by Trump they would have been qualified and not hired just to fill a diversity quota.. Hate him all you want but he truely believes,, make America Great again.. Are you people blind. One of the first presidents to send in troops to protect our own citizens... Identifying incredulous welfare fraude and heaven forbid he expects people to get off their lazy butts, take accountability for their choices and oh...
No,, if they were trained by Trump they would have been qualified and not hired just to fill a diversity quota.. Hate him all you want but he truely believes,, make America Great again.. Are you people blind. One of the first presidents to send in troops to protect our own citizens... Identifying incredulous welfare fraude and heaven forbid he expects people to get off their lazy butts, take accountability for their choices and oh no,, get a job. And the people who oppose deportation in support of illegal behavior.. what the heck.. The United States has sunken so low we have no standards. His policies and actions are no more questionable than any other President,, the difference is he puts the United States first and expects more from the people. Wake up..
I doubt there is much diversity, race, creed or sex, among ATCs. Perhaps this is something the next administration will address. No one has or will find a job in an ATC tower unless every qualification is met. As far as JFK ATC goes, professionalism is obviously another story.
Emirates fault. If confused the first time, it is there responsibility to get clarification before moving. Otherwise Stop! This is how accidents with runway incursions happen.
Secondly, if they had a problem with their professionalism, they could have called the tower later. It’s all recorded for review if needed. They were garbaging the radios up. Other pilots didn’t need to hear their complaints.
Once the access gate they were directed to was found to be blocked the pilots needed a new set of concise instructions,with a short explanation of distance and map relativaty- eg north on taxiway A for 800 metres.telling to epedite without concise instructions is counter productive.Asking ATC to be more professional is also counter productive.Message not understood please give more imformation would have been a better response
What an ass. I don't care what his situation is, whether he's pissed bc he didn't get paid during the layoff or stress or whatever, he knew the job when he took it. You dont jeopardize other peoples lives over having to be Mr. MACHO. I'll bet he would have handled it differently if his wife or children were on that plane. No probably not. He would had them bring them back and drop them off. Sounds like he has the TRUMP attitude: GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT!
Go to a bar on their day off? I hope they have better things to do.
Absolutely EMIRATES Pilot is faulty. He should be more professional.
Well most Americans and a good deal of people living here in the UK cannot speak the King's English ! Many years ago here in the UK had eleqution lessons st school.
Verbally can be misunderstood or wrongly assumption. The best way is in text communication in short and clearly.
Potentially very dangerous. Needs to be reviewed by the NTSB.
Hopefully, they are not Biden's DEI hires also.
The directions given weren't clear, that in its self is unprofessional! The tower and ground controller continued to argue which proved that they truly are unprofessional! More training needs to be implemented because if it was an emergency landing things would not have went well!
The ATC's were adding to the confusion at an already busy location. Not only their professional conduct should be reviewed (and likely disciplined), but that of their leadership who allow this activity to continue. Weed out the inadequate, feed the excellent to accelerate their growth.
When human lives are being transported, there should be no confusion in instructions. There were four pilots in that cockpit, and they did not understand the message. For air traffic controllers at their own airport, it is very easy to issue instructions because they know the airport and understand it well. There is no reason to create tension or urgency when something is not clearly understood. As someone once said, it seems they have forgotten...
When human lives are being transported, there should be no confusion in instructions. There were four pilots in that cockpit, and they did not understand the message. For air traffic controllers at their own airport, it is very easy to issue instructions because they know the airport and understand it well. There is no reason to create tension or urgency when something is not clearly understood. As someone once said, it seems they have forgotten what happened in Tenerife many years ago.
If you don't understand the instructions, ask more clearly immediately, There are more planes active on runaway, expect rapid instructions, this is not a simulation runway.
You want professionalism then ask immediately if you don't understand, don't play victim and pout then don't say be professional when your behavior is not.
German atc got that from a brit pilot. Never been here before? Response was golden. Pilot said only once, 1942 and never landed
If I'm coming in to JFK or to any other airport, bringing in the biggest jet. I can ask for clarification as many times as needed, because I'm the customer, the airport is the service provider and my airline is paying for the service.
Being busy is not an excuse to be rude. If I go into a restaurant, you can't push and shove me and say move fast we have people waiting behind...
If I'm coming in to JFK or to any other airport, bringing in the biggest jet. I can ask for clarification as many times as needed, because I'm the customer, the airport is the service provider and my airline is paying for the service.
Being busy is not an excuse to be rude. If I go into a restaurant, you can't push and shove me and say move fast we have people waiting behind you. If you can't handle the traffic, then reduce the number of flights.
Because the infrastructure at JFK does not match with the attitude of the controllers.. they really need to go to airports in Asia and ME if they want to see airports with great infrastructure with neat design.
So sad that both parties, but more so the ATC have failed to understand that lack of communication or poor communication has costed the world so many avoidable catastrophic accidents and loss of many lives.
This occurrence has its root causes, often latent, lying in failures or inadequacies in policies, procedures and instructions which is in the perview of leadership. The occurrence is a mere symptom that should lead management to investigate the root cause....
So sad that both parties, but more so the ATC have failed to understand that lack of communication or poor communication has costed the world so many avoidable catastrophic accidents and loss of many lives.
This occurrence has its root causes, often latent, lying in failures or inadequacies in policies, procedures and instructions which is in the perview of leadership. The occurrence is a mere symptom that should lead management to investigate the root cause. Such misunderstanding should never be allowed to repeat itself in the airline industry.
They should be given time off. To clear their head, of how important they are!
Very well written and thank you for making it easy to understand!
Well no matter what the pilot stages of confusing, must not instruction the atc to be professional next, time " because first himself should initiated that professional attitude, don't forget you flying all over the world, but remember this if you base in on places for decades, you consider that is your territory, you is the boss somehow in terms of respect, no matter how many airports I flying into around the globe, I don't...
Well no matter what the pilot stages of confusing, must not instruction the atc to be professional next, time " because first himself should initiated that professional attitude, don't forget you flying all over the world, but remember this if you base in on places for decades, you consider that is your territory, you is the boss somehow in terms of respect, no matter how many airports I flying into around the globe, I don't consider myself to be act so smart to the person whom being constantly live there and helping me from time to time.
This is why I remind people all the time that no matter the job, they are people. The people who working as Doctors, Teachers, Lawyers, Judges, Politicians, Police, Piolets, etc are people just like the ones who work at Retail or Fast food. No one is better than others. People seem to treat certain professions better and think more of them but it isn't true. Just because you do important things doesn't mean you are a nice and decent person.
Clarification is necessary and asked for then give it! There’s no room for Ego and Assumptions in Safety of Air Traffic Controlling. Pilots ask then answer with more info to reassure the Safest path …Period!!! It’s not personal it’s Safety of Passengers Planes and Pathways!!!
If you read the book Outliers you will learn that due to respecting your senior or people in higher power was causing so many accidents. Now there is no higher or low in the sky. If you talk to them more casual you will get your point across quicker than waiting to be asked or being scared to question and order.
For safety reasons,controllers need to talk instructions clearly and slowly and repeit until instractions are fuly understand.You don't jepardized peple lives.
There was another big ass plane stuck on the active runway behind them because they stopped. Yeah he could have said "correction" and maybe explained better but they were blocking traffic. They don't have time to explain why....just move like they tell you. And yeah they can be asses but better than putting two planes together.
Both parties had issues. Pilots were given confusion instructions and told to cross an active runway which is usually the last thing they’re supposed to do. ATC had a bad attitude and lacked basic communication skills by making the instructions so unclear. This interaction deserves some scrutiny by upper management of the ACT. There’s no room for intimidation, rudeness or righteousness between the the two groups. The bottom line is this situation could’ve easily become...
Both parties had issues. Pilots were given confusion instructions and told to cross an active runway which is usually the last thing they’re supposed to do. ATC had a bad attitude and lacked basic communication skills by making the instructions so unclear. This interaction deserves some scrutiny by upper management of the ACT. There’s no room for intimidation, rudeness or righteousness between the the two groups. The bottom line is this situation could’ve easily become a tragedy. Although the ATC employees may have only one plot of land to concentrate on, for the passengers and their loved ones and family an accident would mean they didn’t ever concentrate on anything else but their loss. Everyone here needs to grow up and remember why they’re doing their jobs. Passenger safety should be priority one. Individuals protecting their ego and risking of lives in the process is unacceptable. Check your ego at the door and get over yourself! Do your job or find another one. Management - freakin manage your team.
I wouldn’t want to be hurt or killed because a few guys are out to prove they have a bigger uh , joy stick than the other guys. Grow up!
Passenger Safety, passenger safety, that is not mentioned. In my opinion the pilot became frustrated when ATC said keep up your speed there is a plane behind you. What if, in the pilots attempt to follow instructions, they are hit by another plane? The pilot was correct in asking for higher level communication and certainly not calling for backup to prove a point.
I am a retired ATC with 28 years and over 24 at O’Hare. The controllers instructions were very simple and clear. Four professional pilots in an A380 can’t understand taxi via Alpha and hold short of Delta? They also stopped after being told to keep moving and were told that there was a 777 crossing behind them. You will ALWAYS get barked at from ATC if you stop on a runway or block an exit...
I am a retired ATC with 28 years and over 24 at O’Hare. The controllers instructions were very simple and clear. Four professional pilots in an A380 can’t understand taxi via Alpha and hold short of Delta? They also stopped after being told to keep moving and were told that there was a 777 crossing behind them. You will ALWAYS get barked at from ATC if you stop on a runway or block an exit off an active runway. It’s dangerous. At a minimum it can cause a last second go around or an aborted takeoff or in the worse case an accident. Move away from the runway!! I learned that in my first hours of flying lessons. They were also told to monitor GC on 121.9…they acknowledged that too but didn’t do it. The ground controller wasn’t unprofessional at all…the pilot claimed the tower was unprofessional and GC was simply asking what exactly the pilot had an issue with. I have heard so much worse between pilots and controllers….this was nothing. When you stop on a runway or block an exit you’re going to hear it…it’s a safety issue which can get very serious very quickly. Four pilots in one airplane can’t follow simple instructions? Come on…listen up!
You were probably never as clear as you thought you were either...ATCs are too full of themselves with lives at stake..you weren't at JFK and, therefore, you are just another ATC protecting his own...Up to the ATC to have their instructions ...clear...concise and UNDERSTOOD by all those landing at all USA airports.. God Bless Travelers
Problem here is that the air traffic controllers at JFK are New Yorkers.... of course it's going to be a recurring problem that they're rude.
I think atc s instructions weren't clear at all if this is what goes on normally no. Wonder we have airplanes running into each other which is flipping scary. They should be professional at all times I don't care who it is,
Emirates was correct and behaved politely and professionally.
There is no waiting on the red line, the white is for loading and unloading.
As a retired air traffic controller, I must say the pilots handled it professionally as is required.
Controllers know that they have errored and should have ceased immediately. Where was the tower manager during all of this? Everything is recorded. I'll behavior, is not funny, and all controllers should be reprimanded and require corrective training.
Patience & understanding by the controller was lacking!
His job is to "safely guide" & help the landing pilots!
No matter what! It takes of him.
He seems to have forgotten this fact!!
Key word ‘before’… Emirates went back in time to be a bit-ch and got called out for it by ATC
This article is a nothingburger except to illustrate whiny pilots
You dealing with NEW YORKERS. They are abrupt and rude . That's their nature.
It's a primary duty of Air traffic controller to give clear and brief (if needed) instructions to pilot while in the Air or on the ground within their jurisdiction so it would make it convenient for the pilot to understand and compliance.
Flown through jFK many many times...the instructions were NOT unclear and the pilots need to listen up and sharpen up or cause an accident. The only issue at JFK is the single ATC ground frequency which should be divided up having so much real estate to cover.
My experience when dealing with nearly EVERYONE at JFK was tragically bad. That airport seems to have a culture of arrogance and incompetence that reaches all operational areas. It does not surprise me in the least that ATC personnel are also difficult and arrogant. That place is chock-full of miserable, unhappy, unhelpful and incompetent misanthropes.
Military for 6yrs and commercial for another 52, I’ve seen and heard it all! There are good and bad controllers, just like lawyers, doctors, and pilots! Yes, that is their space in life to control, but, in the old days we asked for help and got it. They may have had there fun with the student pilots, but, as professionals, both understood the need for each other? Who do you think is and always will be in the supporting role??
Lots of problems miscommunication. attitude. Safety. Low moral. Overwork. Too many planes if you need to keep planes moving across a runway that's pure Safety issue
Safety is first and the highest concern, and courtsey is a distant second. Remmember that the ATC has control of the runways and traffic, not the pilot. The ATC gave clear instructions by using the NATO phonetic term "Alpha" and "Delta", and the pilot repeated the instructions back. ATC clearly told the pilot not to stop and even clearly stated there was a 777 behind him. At no time did ATC instruct the pilot to...
Safety is first and the highest concern, and courtsey is a distant second. Remmember that the ATC has control of the runways and traffic, not the pilot. The ATC gave clear instructions by using the NATO phonetic term "Alpha" and "Delta", and the pilot repeated the instructions back. ATC clearly told the pilot not to stop and even clearly stated there was a 777 behind him. At no time did ATC instruct the pilot to use KA or use the NATO phonetic names of "Kilo Alpha." ATC took immediate and professional actions to prevent an accident due to the pilot not following the ATC's instructions. If you get your feelings hurt because you are reprimanded in front of your peers on the flight deck for your mistake, then you have no business being in the control of several hundred people on an aircraft.
The pilot couldn't use my favorite when in trouble by stating "Student Pilot" hahaha
I'm confused much like the Emirate pilot. Because this article was lengthy and poorly composed. Just reading it was tedious and required mental energy and focus. Too many
details for an unfortunate disagreement without addressing any potential dangers to passenger safety. Which is strange considering all the recent aviation accidents and government shutdown.
One of the reasons I won't fly in or out of JFK
Emirates didn't like that they couldn't properly read back instructions, couldn't properly change frequencies, stopped an A380 blocking traffic on an active runway because they aren't understanding a basic 2 line taxi instruction, and then proceeded to complain about it ON FREQUENCY instead of filing a complaint with the existing process. These guys wanted to prove they were something special because they were flying a big jet, and nothing more.
It’s New York…I’ve been thru that hell hole 100s of times…every single person in nyc is rude. Every major city in America is rude and disrespectful now. Sad but true.
WOW... the ATC and his ground controller think highly of themselves so much so they've become petty so much that I can see these idiots were probably the ones that made the polots crash them planes into the towers. Yup .. they got the pilots so pissed off that they decided to crash the planes and said.... there.. that'll show you!
Retired airline pilot that flew in and out of JFK for over 30 years, THAT'S NEW YORK.
Its very clear what happened and its not unusual at all. The two individuals in the tower are just run of the mill pig ignorant New York City Scumbags. The whole City is a wreched swill pit, and a complete embarrasment to the rest of the nation.
I don't think ATC was rude, but once he changed instructions he could have clarified, especially at JFK.
Maybe fly the ATC to Atlanta Los Angeles,Heathrow. Give the ATC window seats(or even sit in the cockpit)
Then take him to the tower,show him around for an hour or so,then tell him to take over that spot.
It’s extreme,but can show how a pilot may feel.
Well sir you completely missed the point!!!!!
Arc always has control of the air and ground around the airport period!
The pilots are required to operate the aircraft in the manner that the arc orders no exceptions ever. Remember this! The tower sees all . Never ever forget that.!!
New Yorkers being rude??? lol, never!!!
new york.
rudest cabbies, waiters and tourcguides as well.
having been there 2wice (get it? duh) will NEVER do so again
Told to taxi, you taxi! No runway, in sight, follow directions from ATC! Any confusion, ask for clarification, and proceed further!
What the hell does Biden have to do with anything? These controllers work in a highly stressful environment with outdated equipment in addition to long hours due to the monumental incompetence of the witless Trump Administration! I’m a pilot and I know firsthand about the arrogance of Emirates pilots! They think the controllers are their personal servants! I glad the got taken down a notch!
It's not a controller place to tell a pilot how to command his aircraft. The tipicle NY arregance shines through here even on the radio. The pilot also shouldn't have decided to debate that with him on the line. He should have filled a complaint with the FAA but seems like the guy forgot where he was landing.
It's probably worse there due to most controllers being from/living in the NYC/LI area. Obnoxious people. Lol
Sounds like everything worked out ok. Good they moved on without getting crazy.
Emirates pilots complaining about unprofessionalism is hilarious. All middle eastern airlines and airports personnel are most rude people on earth. I experienced it first hand..travelling Emirates, Etihad, Qatar on my travels to south east Asia. Now, I avoid those airlines, even if expensive I travel European, Asian or American based airlines.
That is an example of pride and a lack of perspective, by the aur traffic controllers. As the author suggests, a professional response would gave been that bogus picture, needed, clarification if what they were wanting.
50 years ago I work with a young lady that was a great controller, but her voice would get excited when we were extra busy. One night we had a heavy mix of military jets and prop planes. Her voice got excited and a A-37 pilot said put a man on that mic that knows what he is doing. Well we all waited knowing this lady wasn't going to have that. After a few seconds...
50 years ago I work with a young lady that was a great controller, but her voice would get excited when we were extra busy. One night we had a heavy mix of military jets and prop planes. Her voice got excited and a A-37 pilot said put a man on that mic that knows what he is doing. Well we all waited knowing this lady wasn't going to have that. After a few seconds she keys the mic and says in a very calm voice ' You probably say the same thing when you crawl into bed at night '. Best comeback I have ever heard.
That is because only the smart and intelligents can be hire, this by the president trump.
Its been practice for all airports specially in New york and chicago when ever any airlines come from Asia they always give preference to british or other passengers and airlines.
Usa has to learn respect without rationalization.
That's disgusting! Almost like there is two ways of right and two ways of left for a direction.
Praying for the world to treat each kindly at all times. Some of that is the automation of interaction has resulted in less practice of how to communicate for purpose but at all time prioritizing respect.
Simply put, that's how accidents happen.. don't get defensive.. if something is unclear to someone... Explain...
Being a US citizen, it doesn't surprise me at the behavior of US air traffic controllers. We've become a nation of obnoxious, entitled assholes.
I understood exactly what ATC instructor was.
ATC should have given his reasoning for instructions. Emirates pilots (and all others) aren't mind readers.
Just a warning. AUE is plotting a takeover off of the USA. Look at all the sports franchises they are controlling. Trump has accepted a gift of a luxury airliner from the UAE. Those air traffic controllers will be fired by Trump.
If AUE pilots don’t like landing at JFK let them land in Syria.
Expect America's hostile exceptionalism to get worse
i don't see the issue with ATC.
instructions changed, the change in instructions were clear post change. EK pilot is just dense and clearly knew they were in the wrong when they were called out and switched to ground
emirates continue to act fools across all facets
Sounds like the pilots were trying to air on the side of caution when quick contradictory instructions were given.
As a retired 747, A330 and even the awesome L1011 and just over 26,300 hrs of flight time, at this level of aviation
the big international boy was 100% in error in his words to the controller. And the ground controller was not backing the other controller up, or maybe he was.
The inability of the international carrier to understand very clear instructions, and pass the blame to the controller, either tower or...
As a retired 747, A330 and even the awesome L1011 and just over 26,300 hrs of flight time, at this level of aviation
the big international boy was 100% in error in his words to the controller. And the ground controller was not backing the other controller up, or maybe he was.
The inability of the international carrier to understand very clear instructions, and pass the blame to the controller, either tower or ground is absolutely unprofessional. This carrier's training department needs a serious wakeup call, and these pilots need ground handling skills.
I'd say go back over the pond if you can't handle the big boy stuff.
The pilots were 100% in error, and they demonstrated absolute arrogance talking to the controller as they did, to cover up their mistake.
The tape is extremely clear and understandable. The pilots even read the instructions back, though garbled towards the end of each transmission.
I would have put them in the penalty box until they got their act together.
These wide body pilots were creating a possible safety concern by their actions.
The instructions given by the controller to the Emirates pilot was clearly confusing and when the Emirates pilot asked for clarification, the controller replied as a typical New Yorker, rudely!
The biggest problem I see here as a non-professional flying public is that poor communication and combative dialogue between air traffic controllers and pilots at a busy airport can lead to real world deadly consequences! Confusion about instructions and the need for clarification is important to be listened to without taking personal offense because if a person's ego gets involved and they are unable to listen to such feedback from another group of people that...
The biggest problem I see here as a non-professional flying public is that poor communication and combative dialogue between air traffic controllers and pilots at a busy airport can lead to real world deadly consequences! Confusion about instructions and the need for clarification is important to be listened to without taking personal offense because if a person's ego gets involved and they are unable to listen to such feedback from another group of people that are trying to do their best to listen and follow their directions....next time such confusion without someone willing to speak up could end up leading to a deadly collision on a taxi way where people die. Effective communication requires listening to others to include such feedback. It should not be about ego or feelings or about being right vs wrong both parties should share the same primary goal- PUBLIC SAFETY, this is an example of feedback given so in the future - next time such a direction can be delivered with better clarity, less confusion.This type of feedback can be an essential learning moment for all involved, to be more aware and future preventive. No one is perfect as people....both pilots and air traffic controllers work in high responsibility and highly stressful environments on a daily basis and thankfully flying continues to be a very safe mode of transportation due to their collective efforts to maintain safety as a primary goal together. Effective professional clear communication in such an environment is absolutely necessary to continue to maintain this safety focused in such an environment. There is no place for people to get upset or argue when another person is asking for clarification of directions in such an environment. The primary concern should always be safety and clarity in communication first! Maintaining control over your human thoughts and personal emotions is part of that critical safety process. It is, I am sure, one reason why doing such jobs are so challenging. Personal discipline over emotions is a critical piece to effective communication in a continuous dynamic environment....between all levels it should never be about who is right or wrong or hierarchy of authority if safety is a collective critical concern and shared mission feedback about potential need for better communication and clarification from all levels is a need and being responsive and being able to professionally listen to such feedback and execute properly is a critical part of the job in order to stay safety focused and diligently prevent critical errors from occuring.
ATC was just being their typical 'Get moving out of my jurisdiction-!!' The fact that you've just landed into the buisiest airport in the world may have something to do with it!!
(signed a former ATC Controller & pilot.)
It’s only a matter of time before an on ground collision occurs.
JFK is in queens what do you expect ..
As a former pilot it's up to atc to assure everyone is operating safely. Even if they were tired from overworked its no reason not to assure their instructions are clear and understood. The tower people were wrong in the way they handled the movement on the ground.
The air traffic control " men " should have given better details & also not be so childish , ignorant and disrespectful.
POTUSA BIDEN HIRED THEM!(HAHAHAHA!)
potusa TRUMP actually owns a SAUDI AIR
MANSION,NOT BIDEN.BIDEN DID NOT GET BRIBED! TRUMP DID!.
I am a private pilot and I was flying my plane to Florida from Maine and you have to transit the Hudson and must check in with JFK. I encountered the same thing as Emirates which I too felt was very unprofessional. That is 10 years ago and I still remember it well. With that I have zero respect for them and their BS they are overworked and so stressed. Who called out during the shutdown when they were needed.
Nobody ever will understand a new Yorker anyway
So don't even try
Feel sorry for the pilot and I don't care what nationality he is
Absolutly unprofessional, this issue had the potential for a cathastrophic accident on the tarmac.
There's nothing hillarius about this.
The ATC should be under no circumstances allowed to enter in an argument of any kind with the pilots.
Have some compassion, ATC. if you can't handle the stress, get out of your line of work. Guess what? You are replaceable. Meantime, I WILL be taking the the train... you seem to be way too angry.
Absolutely unprofessional behavior from the JFK controllers. There were clear errors in their communication with the Emirates flight crew and when this was politely addressed, their response was alarmingly defensive and arguably combative. While I wish I could say I were shocked, unfortunately it is indicative of some deeply troubling systemic issues that are plaguing the US air travel system at this time. One can only hope we find the solutions soon before we see...
Absolutely unprofessional behavior from the JFK controllers. There were clear errors in their communication with the Emirates flight crew and when this was politely addressed, their response was alarmingly defensive and arguably combative. While I wish I could say I were shocked, unfortunately it is indicative of some deeply troubling systemic issues that are plaguing the US air travel system at this time. One can only hope we find the solutions soon before we see more breakdowns.
As a private pilot I commensurate with the emirates plot it s the duty to give concise and explicit instructions to any pilot no matter the airline he flies for acting like a child can only lead to an accident or worse- this is insane - PS I’m Jewish so I have no axe to grind in favor of the Arab pilots -this is professional
I find it interesting that some idiot has the moronic tendency to reference Biden in his comments. Sounds familiar! Haha!
Tenerife was in a macabre , perverse way too long ago, but you can see how that could happen.
US ATCs getting days off is a punchline to a political joke, Emirates guys getting haughty along the way, might be funny in isolation. But JFK is a superbusy destination how about strike a compromise and in the future maximize safety , ask questions or get reduced to charred meat chunks...having a childish argument and never...
Tenerife was in a macabre , perverse way too long ago, but you can see how that could happen.
US ATCs getting days off is a punchline to a political joke, Emirates guys getting haughty along the way, might be funny in isolation. But JFK is a superbusy destination how about strike a compromise and in the future maximize safety , ask questions or get reduced to charred meat chunks...having a childish argument and never fucking talk back to your ATC no matter where on Earth you find yourself.
It's not just the ATC people at JFK, most of the staff are awkward to passengers, I transit through US airports at least 10 times per year and do everything I can to avoid JFK and the ignorant arrogant staff that work there.
It's the ground controllers property. Do what he says and shut the phuck up.
Try being an ATC controller at JFK you would last a minute.
ATC was clearly rude and unprofessional. They need to tone it down at JFK. Typical New Yorkers
Obviously the air controller was frustrated,he need to be more polite,if you can’t take the heat get out of the kitchen,Mr controller, and that way u avoid becoming an ass ……..
Local was a bully. Overworked and under paid, but a bully nonetheless. Ground was ok, even though his “buddy” had clearly egged him on. ATCs love doing the “call the tower” game. Crews need to initiate that a tad more often themselves. Former ATC here.
Silly discussion with so many lives at stake. Egos get in the way of things.
The controller needs more training. Solution: Rehire the ATCs that were secretly laid off in 2025.
Is there any point to these comments now that the run of the mill (and predictable) anti-Americanism is here? We get it. USA bad.
If You don't understand, ask for clarification.
Oh, what's that? An American being an ass with main character syndrome? Colour me surprised...
If the pilots didn't understand the instructions, they are required to ask for the tower to repeat.
Sorry, pilots are being prima donnas
I agree with the pilots.
Pretty soon JFK controllers and Emirates pilots will speak arabic to each other.
Folks, it's New York for God's sake. What else would you expect. Just get over it.
I didn’t see a problem with the initial instructions- four pilots in the cockpit couldnt figure it out on the airport diagram map, even after repeating the instruction? What is bizarre is the ground controller picking an argument afterwards. NYers are famously rude and JFK is obviously very busy but I’m siding with tower on this one.
Lessons of Tenerife not learned. If unsure ask.....
Way to go New York. Learn a little class.
If The Emirates Pilots didn't understand, they should of spoke up for clarification.
Should have, not should of.
Americans are Rude.... period. Especially, when they think they have the power!
This 100%. They need to be boycotted.
What's this, a non, talking like any American cares less what their shithole society does or doesn't do
The instructions sounded clear to me. A little scary that with four pilots not one could understand simple instructions
HAS TO BE A BRIT PILOT OF THIS AIRLINE. ARROGANT MDRFKR.
I don’t agree with your analysis as my belief is that if the ATC tells you to turn right and head down any runway, that is what the pilot is to do. They don’t have time for a detailed explanation nor would the pilots be entitled to one. If ATC had to explained their instructions to every pilot who has a big ego, the traffic pattern would no longer be safe.Nuer the pilot knew enough...
I don’t agree with your analysis as my belief is that if the ATC tells you to turn right and head down any runway, that is what the pilot is to do. They don’t have time for a detailed explanation nor would the pilots be entitled to one. If ATC had to explained their instructions to every pilot who has a big ego, the traffic pattern would no longer be safe.Nuer the pilot knew enough English to make an uncalled for snide remark to ATC rather than just chalk it up to being corrected.
Typical controller or wanna be controller response. Ur wrong.
Perhaps it is a liberal Tower, ,mistook the Emirates as Trump. Either way Trump or the UAE Kennedy's got good reason to tell both of them to go f*** themselves.
Your belief? Are you a pilot or ATC professional? The pilot has ultimate responsibility for the passengers lives, if he is unsure, he needs to stop and ask, and ATC MUST afford him that courtesy.
Totally disagree with you. Controllers are paid to be professional. Here they clearly weren't. No surprise. It's New York. Too bad their skill sets are as proficient as their egos. Ask the FAA why EWR Sector was moved from the Common I (NY TRACON) to PHL TRACON? One reason. Because trying to work with the NY NATCA controllers is EXHAUSTING. For some reason they think their high pay makes them super human...when they simply are...
Totally disagree with you. Controllers are paid to be professional. Here they clearly weren't. No surprise. It's New York. Too bad their skill sets are as proficient as their egos. Ask the FAA why EWR Sector was moved from the Common I (NY TRACON) to PHL TRACON? One reason. Because trying to work with the NY NATCA controllers is EXHAUSTING. For some reason they think their high pay makes them super human...when they simply are not.
Sincerely,
30 year Level 12 TRACON controller myself
BS 2, if controllers are not crystal clear with their taxi instructions and the pilots ask for clarity, it's the controllers responsibility to make the instructions crystal clear and because they failed at that, they decided to engage in argumentative behavior. Taxing A380 aircraft around the entire airport seems ridiculous at best, especially when pilots didn't understand what the controller really wanted them to do.
What's your issue with dei?
My guess is your white male and like most white males having dominated the playground for millennium, no sympathy for losing control of all the toys.
Agree with Emirates pilots, instructions were conflicting and confusing. Typical bad American ATC
There was no need for ATC to be combative, very unprofessional
I’ve read that the ATC is completely understaffed to the tune of about 19 people per one person on deck so that means these guys are worth freaking death. It probably worked over a 12 hour shift and this is a major issue with all ATC’s around the world so if the guy got a little gruff understandable when the entire government is against you and he’s probably one of the last people to stick...
I’ve read that the ATC is completely understaffed to the tune of about 19 people per one person on deck so that means these guys are worth freaking death. It probably worked over a 12 hour shift and this is a major issue with all ATC’s around the world so if the guy got a little gruff understandable when the entire government is against you and he’s probably one of the last people to stick around because all the decent people left ATC because of the dismal working conditions in the amount of hours and the no support from their managers and or the government and the shitty wages so folks, I’m not gonna make any excuses for Americans not being rude. Yes we are but we’re also burying the weight of the world, air traffic control, and we do not have the properly trained people to do it in the proper numbers with the proper management and the proper funding. You want to get really scared most of the equipment they have runs on Windows 95 have a nice flight.
The airport controllers are at JFK are mostly DEI hire. I know that for a fact which is why I use LaGuardia.
Fu w that bullshit about dei hires. What does that mean - they're women or black? STFU u racist fk. I know that for a fact too.
Correct, I'm with you, F them with that DEI BS, prejudice MF's.
And there is a perfect example of an arrogant American You knew exactly what was meant by DEI hire. Hired to fill a quota not necessarily the smartest or qualified for the damn position. See it all.the time
.
Sounds like a stupid pissing match. Both parties need to be more professional. Crazy how egos effect decisions. Isn't the goal to be safe and bring everyone home safely? Both parties need to understand that is what's important. Not their stupid macho bull shit!
Means thier IQ was below standard.
People should be hired on merit, not their skin tone or what's between their legs. Absolutely DEI and affirmative action are wrong and should be abolished
I concur 100%. I don't think the ATC was wrong, the pilot was just asking for clarification and appeared frustrated. All I have to say is what do you think would have happened if it was an American pilot in Dubai and he made that kind of response to their ATC? That DEI comment WAS STR B.S.
What's your issue with dei?
My guess is your white male and like most white males having dominated the playground for millennium, no sympathy for losing control of all the toys.
What's your issue with dei?
My guess is your white male and like most white males having dominated the playground for millennium, no sympathy for losing control of all the toys.
I thought the controller was very professional and his instructions clear. Perhaps because of the language barrier and to avoid accountability the emirates pilot tried to gaslight the ATC. All the pilot had to do was ask for clarification from ATC if he didn't understand the directions. Jeez!! Not rocket science!!
Typical trump ATC guy talking down to a foreign pilot.
Tell that to Shawn above he thinks the ATC are DEI hires. More idiots
Emirates should send a memo to all their pilots that whenever they get absurd and rude air traffic controllers, to remind them of the total count of pax and crew onboard and that they rather ask for clarification than risk so many lives. Emirates has a flawless safety record; JFK does not.
Controller should be more polite to the pilots for flying into JFK because sometimes the pilot may have not flown into the airport for long time and they need help. I landed my plan on O'Hare airport long time ago and they were very rude but I confess they were also very busy and they don't have time to help
Amen!!
Maybe the controller should be required to "baby sit a room full of 2&3 year olds!"
I mean, we're talking about airplane safety. Stay out if picking matches!
I am not familiar with the language but judging from the tone and clarity, I didn't think the atc and ground guy were particularly unfriendly or childish... I don't really know why the pilot had to say it was unclear and a native speaker didn't understand or all four pilots didn't understand but said it was clear at the time. The language itself has nothing to do with someone being native English speaker, it is...
I am not familiar with the language but judging from the tone and clarity, I didn't think the atc and ground guy were particularly unfriendly or childish... I don't really know why the pilot had to say it was unclear and a native speaker didn't understand or all four pilots didn't understand but said it was clear at the time. The language itself has nothing to do with someone being native English speaker, it is more of understanding the atc language properly... Just a few words with a and d, noth much English there to be native speaker to be the judge....If all 4 pilots didn't understand it and said clear and started moving, I think that reflects really badly on them, rather unprofessional...maybe the pilot has some internal complex for English and that is reflected in this conversation because he wants to prove his superiority by asking the atc to be professional? Overall I feel like the pilot was a bit passive aggressive. I particularly liked the ground controller to clarify it with neutral tone so that the pilots get it for the next flight. They should take it as a learning point.
I absolutely disagree. Four pilots and basically a English translator didn't understand then both the tower and ground atc need to CAREFULLY reexplain the instructions. The pilots are maneuvering a AB380, the largest passenger plane made and are responsible for the safety of all on board, on the ground and landing or departing. They were crossing an active runway so it was extremely important to get the instructions perfectly clear. The author is correct with...
I absolutely disagree. Four pilots and basically a English translator didn't understand then both the tower and ground atc need to CAREFULLY reexplain the instructions. The pilots are maneuvering a AB380, the largest passenger plane made and are responsible for the safety of all on board, on the ground and landing or departing. They were crossing an active runway so it was extremely important to get the instructions perfectly clear. The author is correct with saying the atc should have told the pilots that he was taking them around the airport. The author was also correct in saying the atc are there every day and the situation get out of hand by being smart enough to understand that there are many pilots that have never been to JFK. There used to be a controller who had a history of making sure everyone was safe and comfortable. I can't recall his name but it was something like "Kennedy Bob" or something. Youtube has hundreds of his conversations with pilots and the airport.
I was a Pan Am pilot and we would very occasionally fly into Chicago O'hare which has very high traffic and the controllers speak fast, because they have to and also use local slang such as penalty box. As a consequence, when I flew in there I told approach that we were strangers, and very tired and would they speak to us slowly, and they did.
What kind of ridiculous system is that? I'm a stranger, I'm tired, please speak slowly? If that were the case at JFK, 7 or every 10 planes would say that. Would have been better if ORD had followed the rules and not had their own lingo.
I agree with the pilots .
JFK IS RUDE and very abrasive at times. They are also very good at their job. I think it is more of a personality issue with that controller. It happens at times.
"Request change of controller " was always my back up plan at JFK. Apparently they cannot refuse. Worst ground contollers in the world.
Any pilot can request progressive taxi instructions, which eliminates lack of clarity or confusion. I don't know why more don't use it in these kinds of situations.
You’re right, traffic control acted like children, worse, they were complete jerks. The pilot was nothing but decent, polite.
Fire them & do it now. F their NY attitudes
Okay, I know that the author is an enthusiast and finds this stuff interesting, but it’s always irked me a bit that a points and miles guy always feels like he has to get his “take” in on this stuff, so let me try to add a little perspective as a pilot actually based at JFK.
Weird fight to pick for the Emirates crew here. While it’s true that it’s a long way around...
Okay, I know that the author is an enthusiast and finds this stuff interesting, but it’s always irked me a bit that a points and miles guy always feels like he has to get his “take” in on this stuff, so let me try to add a little perspective as a pilot actually based at JFK.
Weird fight to pick for the Emirates crew here. While it’s true that it’s a long way around on A to get to D, “Straight ahead on A, hold short of D” is not an ambiguous instruction. It can only mean one thing. When the controller amended his instructions he even emphasized his intentions by starting with “correction” and repeating “straight ahead”. Now, Emirates was pretty clearly confused about where they were supposed to hold short, so I don’t want to fault them too much for slowing down when they were unsure of the instructions. But, having been told both to expedite across the runway and also about the traffic waiting to cross behind them, I think it should have been pretty easy to infer that the controller is primarily concerned with getting airplanes clear of 22R, which was likely the departure runway in this situation. I’d hate to be the BA flight unable to clear an active runway because Emirates is confused. I’ll actually give credit to the controller here for recognizing the conflict developing at one of the most critical areas he’s responsible for and issuing prompt instructions to resolve it, and I don’t think it’s unreasonable at all for him to express a little urgency while he does so. All in all a little clunkier than it usually goes, but everything was fine once everyone was safely on their way, save Emirates never switching to ground.
I really don’t understand why the Emirates crew feels like they needed to start this fight when the tower controller reminded them to switch to ground. I’ve been corrected and admonished far more harshly than that, and not just in the States, either. Oh, and the ground controller was downright polite when he was trying to clear up the confusion with the crew at the end. Anyways, huge props to the JFK controllers, who largely do an excellent job day in and day out moving a huge volume of traffic safely. Personally I think they’re a pleasure to work with!
Is that how all New Yorkers think? The pilot wasn’t starting a fight, just asked for a little consideration…
Couldn’t tell you, I’m not a New Yorker. And my perspective here wouldn’t be any different if this had happened at any other big, busy airport.
"the author is an enthusiast and finds this stuff interesting, but it’s always irked me a bit that a points and miles guy always feels like he has to get his “take” in on this stuff"
I absolutely agree with this. It's so goddamn annoying that he is such an ambassador of privilege, entitlement, and audacity.
Meh sounds like overly sensitive pilots. I don’t know this jargon but it was clear change , they don’t need to ask anything about being polite because the traffic controller was not rude. He gave instructions in the same tone and the pilot slowed down instead of clarifying. This could’ve cost a huge accident with the 777 behind them. The pilot also repeated the instructions after they were given. So what was not clear?
I like that New Yorkers are direct. We're not back-stabbers. We're front-stabbers. No surprises. Save the passive-aggressive 'oh, bless your heart' for Atlanta, folks.
De-escalation is success to life.
Emirates Pilot was clearly unhappy and wanted to make a point to the ATC. That's mistake #1. No one likes to be scolded especially if they are not your superior. This was CLEARLY an escalation.
ATC was childish, but at the end of the day aircraft on the ground absolutely need to follow what ATC is saying... even if the communcation is not clear or confusing.
DO...
De-escalation is success to life.
Emirates Pilot was clearly unhappy and wanted to make a point to the ATC. That's mistake #1. No one likes to be scolded especially if they are not your superior. This was CLEARLY an escalation.
ATC was childish, but at the end of the day aircraft on the ground absolutely need to follow what ATC is saying... even if the communcation is not clear or confusing.
DO not take moral high ground on these hills to die on. It's not worth it. The pilots will know better next time they come to JFK. Either put up with the shit there or choose not to fly there.
agree. this should not be an ego-game or claims to the moral high ground.
Everything was made a tad more complicated because the gate was unavailable and this was a giant A380 that was presumably restricted in movement flexibility.
Ultimately I don't see this as being a big story or even a major escalation.
JFK controllers are JFK controllers. They operate some of the most complex airspace in the world and they are always so nice. To the pilots making a solid six figure flying widebodies man up and let it roll off.
I agree, i’m not a native english speaker nor a pilot but I clearly understand the initial instructions. Turn right on A means don’t stop somewhere along the A until you reach D where you should hold short. Very simple!
Obsolete humans.
How many more accidents and casualties we have to endure before we remove the leading cause of accidents.
Your gramophone needle is stuck in that same old, same old groove Esk, yes?
This tribal mentality of handing off an argument from the tower to ground control will lead to nothing good.
Had the ground controller been professional, they would have tried to recover from the tower's previous issues (whose fault it was doesn't even matter at that point) with politeness and professionalism.
When there's a devastating incursion at JFK, the first place I would look would be at JFK ATC, to see if they were too...
This tribal mentality of handing off an argument from the tower to ground control will lead to nothing good.
Had the ground controller been professional, they would have tried to recover from the tower's previous issues (whose fault it was doesn't even matter at that point) with politeness and professionalism.
When there's a devastating incursion at JFK, the first place I would look would be at JFK ATC, to see if they were too busy chest-thumping and fighting to do their actual jobs. What a bunch of unprofessional holes.
And before anyone says it, being overworked is no excuse or reason to be utterly hostile to pilots.
Both parties are partly to blame. EK pilots could have asked for clarification earlier rather than just taxiing very slow and then giving unsolicited constructive criticism later to the ATC. If that gate was actually free then we wouldn't have hard all this nonsense.
DEI hires under Biden
The quantity of evidence you have that these controllers were hired under Biden equals the level of consideration to which any rational person ought to give your comment.
Your income needs only 5 digits,
The fact that you started out identifying your income then following by 8itching about President Biden, but neglecting all the firing that this Baffoon Administration has done shows me you're either a bot or an idiot. Either which I shouldn't waste my time with ♂️
No dude. It was DEI hires enabled by Obama changes to ATC test to favor african American candidates:
From the lawsuit against the FAA filed by the Mountain States Legal Foundation:
…a candidate could be awarded 15 points, the highest possible for any question, if they indicated that their lowest grades in high school were in science…. In contrast, an applicant was awarded only 2 points if they had a pilot’s certificate and no points...
No dude. It was DEI hires enabled by Obama changes to ATC test to favor african American candidates:
From the lawsuit against the FAA filed by the Mountain States Legal Foundation:
…a candidate could be awarded 15 points, the highest possible for any question, if they indicated that their lowest grades in high school were in science…. In contrast, an applicant was awarded only 2 points if they had a pilot’s certificate and no points were awarded for having a Control Tower Operator rating or having Instrument Flight Rules experience…. In addition, one question on the Biographical Questionnaire awarded an applicant 10 points, the most available for that question, if the applicant answered s/he had not been employed in the prior three years. Another question awarded 4 or 8 points if the applicant had been unemployed five or more months in the prior three years. Statistics from the Department of Labor indicate that African Americans had the highest unemployment rate in 2010–2014.
Hey, umm, who was president during 2017-2021... and, right now?
DEI isn't the issue, but if it were, maybe stop blaming predecessors, and take responsibility.
Trump, March 13, 2020: "I don't take responsibility at all." *facepalm*
People want specifics then decry facts with whataboutthebadorangeman
So much of today's discourse is people pretending not to understand things, preventing discourse
The biographical questionnaire was an absolute joke and its purpose was to hire more minorities. Most of those minority hires ended up failing at the ATC Training Academy in OKC. They did not become controllers at JFK or any of the "Core 30" facilities. And yes, some New York controllers are rude, but they are very good at their job. Cuz I've been one of them for the last 20 years.
I know controllers have a tough job, and I'm sure 99% of them are great people. But kudos to the Emirates crew for calling them out. We need so much more of this in aviation (like with FLIGHT ATTENDANTS) but it doesn't happen because people are afraid of the consequences. Well, the only way that behavior gets corrected is by calling it out. That should be normalized.
Ok, Andy, sure, speak out, but, also, if you speak out and say dumb things, you can expect folks to respond, too. More speech is fine, maybe not 'too much' within this context, because ultimately ATC should control the day at airports (and they then have to take responsibility if things go wrong under their watch), not rogue pilots who think they know better.
I agree for sure, but in this case, it doesn't seem there was something to "call out". It was more about unclearly perceived instructions.
Also, aircraft are noisy environments and radio signals aren't always pristine, so I would imagine there is a lot of ways communication clarity could be compromised.
These tense exchanges with JFK ATC seem to happen often enough to raise concerns about that location's ATC leadership.
Nah. JFK's doing just fine. They're handling way more than most places. I pity the fool who thinks they're gonna pull a fast one on them.
Cross words are common in life, but it's a sign of a stressed environment when it is recurrent. ATC is understaffed all over, yet it seems JFK is too often the site of these adverse interactions. Is it that their staffing is even lower than the average, is it inefficiencies in their local operational procuderes, is it a bad individual or the culture, etc. You can shrug it off, but you may be missing an...
Cross words are common in life, but it's a sign of a stressed environment when it is recurrent. ATC is understaffed all over, yet it seems JFK is too often the site of these adverse interactions. Is it that their staffing is even lower than the average, is it inefficiencies in their local operational procuderes, is it a bad individual or the culture, etc. You can shrug it off, but you may be missing an opportunity to prevent an accident. Management by gravestone isn't the best approach.
When you have limited gates to accept that size of aircraft and a gate is occupied plus aircraft are landing 2-4 minutes apart there is no time for niceties. The instructions were clear, but the reason for the instructions were not, nor did they have to be, in that situation you follow the instructions of who can see the entire picture
Yes, the world has nothing better to do than embarrass Americans. (sarcasm BTW)
We will leave you alone to yourselves. That is punishment enough.