Next year, Salt Lake City is expected to get its first transpacific flight in over a decade. That’s kind of fun… well, unless you’re trying to redeem miles at a good value, and then it’s irrelevant, given SkyMiles pricing. 😉
In this post:
Delta to launch transpacific flights from Salt Lake City
@xJonNYC shares a Delta presentation about the carrier’s Salt Lake City (SLC) hub. It talks about how Salt Lake City is the SkyTeam carrier’s fastest growing core hub. The airline hopes to grow capacity at the airport by 7% from 2024 to 2025.
Currently, Salt Lake City is primarily a domestic connecting hub for Delta, so it’s similar to Phoenix (PHX) for American, or Denver (DEN) for United. The only long haul Delta flights out of the airport are across the Atlantic, to other SkyTeam hubs, including Amsterdam (AMS), London (LHR), and Paris (CDG).
While tickets aren’t yet on sale and details are limited, Delta has revealed that in the summer of 2025, it plans to launch a route from Utah to Seoul Incheon (ICN).
It remains to be seen when this route will launch, with what frequency it will operate, and what aircraft will be used. I would think the airline will use an Airbus A330-900neo, as that should be within range for the jet (unless the altitude of SLC causes some issues).
This is a fun route addition… sort of!
American and Delta are both incredibly uncreative across the Pacific, especially in comparison to United. United actually tries to fly directly to destinations in Asia that people want to travel to, while American and Delta both just funnel people through their joint venture hubs, which are Tokyo (HND & NRT) and Seoul Incheon (ICN), respectively.
Their networks outside of that are incredibly limited, especially when you consider these are two of the biggest airlines in the world. To be clear, I’m not saying that’s a bad business decision, but in terms of consumer choice, it’s less than ideal.
Regardless, it’s always fun to see primarily domestic hubs get more long haul service, since it opens up all kinds of convenient one-stop connectivity. Delta currently serves Seoul Incheon out of Atlanta (ATL), Detroit (DTW), Minneapolis (MSP), and Seattle (SEA). Salt Lake City will be a convenient new gateway for those in the western part of the United States, and a good alternative to Seattle.
Bottom line
While flights aren’t yet on sale and it hasn’t been publicly announced, Delta has at least revealed internally that it plans to launch flights between Salt Lake City and Seoul Incheon. The route is expected to commence in the summer of 2025, as Salt Lake City remains the carrier’s fastest growing core hub.
What do you make of Delta adding Salt Lake City to Seoul Incheon flights?
I have no interest in the praise of anyone… but you can’t deny that I have achieved what you and others can’t stand – to be a source of facts and information – and to be the focus of the conversation whether I want it or not.
You, Max, aren’t smart enough to realize that you and your ilk get wha you created.
The choice is yours to either quit focusing on me or...
I have no interest in the praise of anyone… but you can’t deny that I have achieved what you and others can’t stand – to be a source of facts and information – and to be the focus of the conversation whether I want it or not.
You, Max, aren’t smart enough to realize that you and your ilk get wha you created.
The choice is yours to either quit focusing on me or learn to accept that I will hold sway in the conversation and present facts that you don’t want to hear.
Whether this new route was intended to be announced now or not, DL will grow its Asia Pacific presence; if UA can make money, DL will jump in. DL has the platform on which to grow. AA can’t figure out its strategies anywhere in the world. UA will keep throwing routes at the dartboard and many will work but last winter is a clear indication that it is harder for them to grow.
All of the players in crisis – AA, B6, NK and WN – provide lots of opportunities for growth and DL will take them.
Unlike UA, DL has a very solid and profitable domestic system that will provide the fuel needed to grow international markets
The next five years will be some of Delta’s best.
this is such a stupid response and written by a neurotic crazy person.
Unhinged = Tim Dunn
YOU are fixated w/ me....
the only one that is unhinged is you.
good comeback.
get a life and some sleep.
someone else accurately noted that I have created an internet presence that takes second place to no one.
You and others argue and belittle.
I laugh.
Ben pockets the change.
I really doubt A220 meant that as a compliment since you're a laughing stock... but per your own words, you think about me in every time zone so... I guess the self-proclaimed #1 internet loser thinks about me all day long across the globe.
I'm not sure whether to be flattered or now scared that I have a neurotic stalker.
Don't quit your day job. You sure do make people laugh, I'll give you that....
I really doubt A220 meant that as a compliment since you're a laughing stock... but per your own words, you think about me in every time zone so... I guess the self-proclaimed #1 internet loser thinks about me all day long across the globe.
I'm not sure whether to be flattered or now scared that I have a neurotic stalker.
Don't quit your day job. You sure do make people laugh, I'll give you that. And I can assure you, I'm not looking to take your "crown" of #1 comment section jester
you are the most hypocritical person on the internet... you accuse others of what you are and do
It is clear that some people have fun winding others up - that would be - - and some people are wrapped up in the identity of their airlines.
Tokyo is not growing for anyone. UA tried to convert its IAH-NRT flight to HND. NRT is a failing hub.
Even people on other forums recognize the power of the ICN hub. ICN is simply the best hub in NE Asia - eons ahead of...
It is clear that some people have fun winding others up - that would be - - and some people are wrapped up in the identity of their airlines.
Tokyo is not growing for anyone. UA tried to convert its IAH-NRT flight to HND. NRT is a failing hub.
Even people on other forums recognize the power of the ICN hub. ICN is simply the best hub in NE Asia - eons ahead of either NRT or HND in international connection opportunities.
AA and UA hitched their star to Tokyo; DL looked west to S. Korea and will have the last laugh (as will I at the grease that some people consume thinking that I am personally vested in what happens at ICN or anywhere else in the airline industry).
Still, DL is the largest US carrier from HND to the US.
Delta outsmarted AA and UA in E. Asia with the right local markets, hubs, and aircraft.
And **I** outsmart all the rest of you fools that incessantly fall for my attempts at wrapping you around the axle.
You really should be getting more sleep, Tim.
Staying up until 2am to write 8 paragraphs about your unrequited love for Delta then waking up 6 hours later to write 7 more paragraphs of unrequited love.... I'm just worried about your sleep, buddy. I realize paranoia and ignorance probably thrive on less sleep, but you might actually get some people that agree with you if you got some sleep, researched, then wrote informed opinions.
...
You really should be getting more sleep, Tim.
Staying up until 2am to write 8 paragraphs about your unrequited love for Delta then waking up 6 hours later to write 7 more paragraphs of unrequited love.... I'm just worried about your sleep, buddy. I realize paranoia and ignorance probably thrive on less sleep, but you might actually get some people that agree with you if you got some sleep, researched, then wrote informed opinions.
Hell, you might even stop living a life in the comment section of better people.
But until then. spend all your waking hours obsessed. It's great humor for everyone else.
it was you that told us about time zones.
You do know there are 24 of them in the world?
I can laugh at you in all 24 of them and you often are the focus of them
your obsession with me is so flattering yet strange. I'm sure you scare many people with your maniacal laugh in 24 time zones.
"You do know there are 24 of them in the world?"
There are, in fact, significantly more than 24 time zones.
Unhinged....
that's about the only word to describe Tim Dunn on this article.
Though DCS use of the term "Sophistry" will go down as probably the most apt word of all time to describe him.
Imagine basing your entire self worth around a comment section and an airline that didn't want you.
And no, tim. They're airlines and companies.. No one is threatened by anything Delta does though you seem very personally threatened by even the slightest criticism of them.
It is clear that some people are very threatened by Delta's growth in Asia where they were the largest airline - regardless of nationality - just after the NW merger.
DL faced significant strategic challenges with the opening of HND to US flights - but not the opportunity for DL to move its beyond Tokyo flights.
Covid hit and DL retired the 777s but strengthened its relationship with KE and is now ready to...
It is clear that some people are very threatened by Delta's growth in Asia where they were the largest airline - regardless of nationality - just after the NW merger.
DL faced significant strategic challenges with the opening of HND to US flights - but not the opportunity for DL to move its beyond Tokyo flights.
Covid hit and DL retired the 777s but strengthened its relationship with KE and is now ready to substantially regrow its presence in Asia/Pacific.
They may or may not become the #1 airline across the Pacific again in terms of size but they will have strong enduring advantages including a young and efficient fleet and a strong partnership.
Delta is the largest US carrier at both ICN - is going to keep growing there - and also the largest at HND.
Some cling to the notion of their airline's supremacy in one form or another and love to think of their competitors as weak.
DL based its post covid recovery on demand returning in 2025; they were a couple years too late for some markets but are well positioned - better so than AA or UA - to grow in the next few years.
There will be E. Asia announcements as well as more to the S. Pacific and to the Middle East and S. Asia.
You seriously need to get laid before you turn 70 years old (and no, I'm not volunteering to do that horrendous task).
#VirginsFlyDetla
Wouldn't it be mind-blowing if @DimSum and @ConcordeLadyBoy were one and the same??
“ After all of this back and forth, it is clear that there is no "community"
There is AN American Airlines employee that can't stand to admit that”
“The only fact check is that you are a jilted UA fan kid whose identity is wrapped up in UA’s size and unable to accept that, if UA can make money flying routes, other carriers can and will grow.”
Ladies and gentleman, the brilliance of Tim Dunn.
Let’s see how many factual inaccuracies Tim get’s this time around.
[1] “we clearly need a geography lesson. ‘eastern US’ is not ‘east coast’
Yes, DTW, MSP, and ATL are all in the eastern US.
Pull out a map and look at where those cities lie relative to the Mississippi River.
-False. Both the city of Minneapolis and MSP airport are located west of the Mississippi River.
[2] And DL, in total has...
Let’s see how many factual inaccuracies Tim get’s this time around.
[1] “we clearly need a geography lesson. ‘eastern US’ is not ‘east coast’
Yes, DTW, MSP, and ATL are all in the eastern US.
Pull out a map and look at where those cities lie relative to the Mississippi River.
-False. Both the city of Minneapolis and MSP airport are located west of the Mississippi River.
[2] And DL, in total has more service from Tokyo HND and Seoul ICN from more cities in the US than UA. Even if NRT for UA and AA is equivalent from a connecting standpoint to ICN for DL, DL in total has more flights from the US.
-False. UA operates 17x weekly flights to Tokyo and Seoul vs. DL 11x weekly.
[3] “As for your hub characterizations, if DL can have all of the ‘failing hubs’ you think they do and still be the most profitable US airline, then AA and UA clearly missed the hub in creating profitable hubs to support all of their own boondoggles”
-False. UA and DL both brought in 1.3B with UA bringing in higher margins in the MRQ which excludes the impact of the DL’s 3Q meltdown. UA was also twice as profitable over the Pacific.
[4] “DL moved its connecting hub to ICN with KE which is a far larger hub than either NRT or HND.”
-False. As of September 2024, Haneda is the world’s 3rd largest airport by seats. ICN doesn’t even crack top 10.
[5] “and the converse is that United doesn't fly to any city other than Tokyo from any hub that is not on the west coast.”
-False. India is in South Asia and served both by AA and UA. Both AA and UA serve India and Japan from NYC while DL serves neither.
[6] and, yes, the A350 is the most capable longhaul aircraft.
-Subjective. So capable that it’s allowed DL to currently serve destinations such as Singapore, India, and Melbourne from the US in its current confirguration.
Just kidding, DL traded 80 premium seats for exactly 80 (eighty) premium seats and 31 less economy seats. DL would sometimes block up to 100 seats for performance on TPAC missions, not just JNB-ATL. Hell, the similarly sized 787-10 is doing ORD-HND with 318 seats, 43 more than the 35H. In terms of fuel efficiency, both AA 787-9 and UAs 787-9/10 burn less total fuel than any of DL’s A350s and less fuel per seat than any of DL’s factory delivered A350s.
“DL announced precisely ZERO new flights for 2025 to LHR, AMS or CDG.”
-True.
Oh, look.
It’s the usual United fankid that can’t stand to read let alone admit that Delta is regrowing its Pacific network post NRT hub and post 777 retirement. DL is growing to E. Asia and the S. Pacific. UA’s disastrous capacity dumping and cancellation of routes from LAX that DL flies in the S. Pacific last winter is just a foretelling of the reassertion of DL in the Asia/Pacific region which UA has...
Oh, look.
It’s the usual United fankid that can’t stand to read let alone admit that Delta is regrowing its Pacific network post NRT hub and post 777 retirement. DL is growing to E. Asia and the S. Pacific. UA’s disastrous capacity dumping and cancellation of routes from LAX that DL flies in the S. Pacific last winter is just a foretelling of the reassertion of DL in the Asia/Pacific region which UA has acted like it could dominate.
United fankids like you never understood and didn’t want to understand that DL never intended to be a small bit player; they were the largest carrier across the Pacific post NW merger.
United jumped in as DL shrunk w/ the end of the NRT hub. Good for them… but DL strategically has a stronger and more sustainable plan.
Japanese government policy has resulted in flights from HND to the US pulling off the highest value passengers from NRT flights. If NRT was just a great hub, UA would not have tried to shift its IAD flight. NRT is an economically dying TPAC hub.
HND is a larger airport but it is predominantly domestic. UA does not participate in ONE IOTA of the Japanese market. They can connect passengers from Japanese cities via HND very well but HND and NRT are smaller INTERNATIONAL gateways than ICN. That is a fact that you just don’t want to admit.
UA’s presence at both Tokyo airports plus ICN is not materially larger than DL.
UA’s larger size in E. Asia is because of its presence in cities like SIN, HKG, MNL – as well as KIX which DL does not serve in China and Japan. DL is the same size in flights as UA at PVG.
DL will be adding more cities in Asia on the heels of its successful relaunch of TPE.
The DOT just updated profitability by global region for 2Q2024 and UA STILL does not get profits comparable to DL on a seat mile basis. UA’s TPAC network profitability peaks in Q2 and 3 and then is a drag for Q4 and Q1.
The 350 and 339s which fly all of DL’s TPAC routes except for HND-HNL are far more efficient. The 350-1000 will be a game changer in TPAC market share with US airlines and profitability. UA can’t get new 787s delivered at anywhere near the pace they need to grow so fly fuel-guzzling 777s; neither the 787 or 777 can fly anywhere near the distance the A350 can fly with the same number of passengers. That is factual – not subjective.
The only fact check is that you are a jilted UA fan kid whose identity is wrapped up in UA’s size and unable to accept that, if UA can make money flying routes, other carriers can and will grow.
UA’s leadership over the Pacific will be eroded as DL has the aircraft and desire to return to markets that DL used to serve and where UA has had the only US carrier service for years.
The usual Tim response: nothing to respond to point by point when corrected and he's wrong but always willing to go off on new rabbit holes to try and distract from being proven wrong... yet again.
Oh. And weird name calling about UA fan kids from the world's #1 Delta fanboy for "25 years" I believe he said
I hope they use an A35x for this. The A350s now being delivered to Delta are required under the contract with Airbus to have 1% higher cabin humidity than those delivered to other airlines, thus preserving the title of the world’s most capable aircraft being delivered to the world’s most premium airline. The world’s most capable aircraft will keep the Delta One chicken from drying out as it always does on the A33x. Mormons don’t like dry chicken.
I think someone isn't liking the notion that DL will have a 335-350 seat new generation widebody that can fly further than what any other US airline can fly with their own aircraft.
I can't comment directly to Manny, but DEN is 1200 feet higher than SLC. That'll seriously limit what you can do long-haul. Especially in the hot summer, DEN is a lot like JNB when it comes to 77W operations. The 16,000 foot runway at DEN only does so much, because the 77Ws end up limited by tire speeds.
When you combine that situation with coastal hubs that are better for long-haul operations, you're not going to be running a lot out of DEN or SLC
I wish United would treat Denver hub like Delta treats SLC.
Denver does not have the transpacific and transatlantic connectivity it deserves. Also is the ONLY hub to not have the Polaris lounge.
Meanwhile Delta has had a transatlantic service from SLC before United did from DEN. And given SLC's size, it still gets a lot more international service than DEN.
I'm confused by this.
Yes, DEN lacks a Polaris lounge. But SLC does not have a "Delta One" lounge. So it seems United and Delta treat these hubs similarly when it comes to lounges.
Transatlantic, UA runs nonstops to LHR and FRA; its partner Lufthansa runs nonstops to FRA and MUC. That's 3 European destinations for DEN. SLC has 3 European destinations: LHR, CDG, AMS.
Transpacific, UA runs nonstops to NRT, compared to SLC's...
I'm confused by this.
Yes, DEN lacks a Polaris lounge. But SLC does not have a "Delta One" lounge. So it seems United and Delta treat these hubs similarly when it comes to lounges.
Transatlantic, UA runs nonstops to LHR and FRA; its partner Lufthansa runs nonstops to FRA and MUC. That's 3 European destinations for DEN. SLC has 3 European destinations: LHR, CDG, AMS.
Transpacific, UA runs nonstops to NRT, compared to SLC's zero nonstops to Asia (until Delta starts ICN).
How does SLC have "a lot more international service" than DEN?
Ben, when will you be adding functionality to mute or block commenters that readers don't want to see?
No special reason, just curious.
probably never. because like it or not the crazies bring traffic which means more money to the site
Desperately need to move on from a few of the commenters on here
Man this comment section is a dunnster fire
And 75% of the commenters are leaded gasoline
And 75% of the commenters are leaded gasoline
This makes a lot of sense for a few reasons. For one thing, SLC has long outpunched it's weight when it comes to air travel demand. Yes, you have LDS missionary travel but it's also a well educated and professional market that is at least 7-8 hours drive from the next major city. At this point, this market is growing very quickly and there's now a new airport terminal that can support that growth. So,...
This makes a lot of sense for a few reasons. For one thing, SLC has long outpunched it's weight when it comes to air travel demand. Yes, you have LDS missionary travel but it's also a well educated and professional market that is at least 7-8 hours drive from the next major city. At this point, this market is growing very quickly and there's now a new airport terminal that can support that growth. So, it's no surprise that DL would elect to add this route.
One of DL's strategies seems to be to create their own "hubs" in the fortresses of their team partners (Korean, AF, KLM, etc) then feed pax in from their own hubs into those gateways where they can connect onward using the partners' metal (but preferably with a DL flight no). This honestly makes a lot of sense as they can have Korean do the heavy lifting for them in Asia. The downside of this is that their once strong position in Japan is very weak as Seoul is not a good connecting point to travel onward to Japan. But it is a strong base for itineraries elsewhere in east Asia.
Those bemoaning why "this sized market gets an Asia nonstop and that size market does not" clearly don't get how any of this works. It's based on an airline's business model and network configuration. This route fits perfectly. It's why DL also has SLC-CDG nonstops. KLM offers SLC-AMS. And CPH will be coming at some point, either on DL or SAS. These are the biggest SkyTeam international hubs (not counting domestic ones like ATL, of course).
That's not even REMOTELY accurate.
One of the biggest reasons (by the carriers' own admission) for the JAL/JAS merger in the '00s, was because the Japanese airlines were struggling to compete with the Korean carriers' ability to provide 1stop same-airport international connections to all major and most secondary markets in Japan, via (the newly opened) ICN....
....whereas Japanese airlines were hobbled...
That's not even REMOTELY accurate.
One of the biggest reasons (by the carriers' own admission) for the JAL/JAS merger in the '00s, was because the Japanese airlines were struggling to compete with the Korean carriers' ability to provide 1stop same-airport international connections to all major and most secondary markets in Japan, via (the newly opened) ICN....
....whereas Japanese airlines were hobbled by JL's limited domestic penetration and pain of having to switch between HND and NRT for domestic-to-international connections.
The Koreans were eating the Japanese airlines alive back then, and even today still command a large percentage of Japanese regional and longhaul travel. You only need to look at a map to see why.
"That's not even REMOTELY accurate."
"You only need to look at a map to see why"
considering the topic is North America to Japan connections, not Japan > Westbound... what map are you looking at?
no. ICN is not ideal for japan>north America connections and now that HND has so many American routes paired with the Japan regional feed, it's even worse.
You don't need to come in with your normal "My way...
"That's not even REMOTELY accurate."
"You only need to look at a map to see why"
considering the topic is North America to Japan connections, not Japan > Westbound... what map are you looking at?
no. ICN is not ideal for japan>north America connections and now that HND has so many American routes paired with the Japan regional feed, it's even worse.
You don't need to come in with your normal "My way or you're wrong" approach when you don't seem to know where Seoul is relative to Japan on a map. Nearly every routing from FUK to NGO to CTS is about 800 miles longer via ICN vs HND to the US.
There's no need to live 20 years ago when the HND dynamic has diminished the value of ICN to Japanese regional airports going to the US. No needs to transfer on HND>NRT anymore to get to the US or, frankly, most places since HND has so many international airlines there now.
As Stogie mentioned, ICN could be useful to East Asia from smaller Japanese airports but why would you connect in ICN at most major Japanese cities when nearly all of those cities already have nonstop service on other Asian airlines whether full service or ULCC style.
Hmm, might wanna check that again, seeing as the "the topic" is SLC to Korea....
And while you're checking, try to find the part where I compared ICN to HND in today's market. Versus correcting the (mistaken) notion that ICN is somehow "not good" for onward travel to Japan-- when it can just as easily facilitate Japanese connections incoming from SLC as it could...
Hmm, might wanna check that again, seeing as the "the topic" is SLC to Korea....
And while you're checking, try to find the part where I compared ICN to HND in today's market. Versus correcting the (mistaken) notion that ICN is somehow "not good" for onward travel to Japan-- when it can just as easily facilitate Japanese connections incoming from SLC as it could anywhere else in Asia, as it's done for other markets both east and westbound in the past.
Or TL;DR. Reading works.
"Hmm, might wanna check that again, seeing as the "the topic" is SLC to Korea...."
Try reading yourself and what you replied to. You replied with a lack of geographic knowledge saying ICN is a good transit point for US to Japan. It isn't and it certainly isn't now as you said it was in your reply.
You replied to this statement "Seoul is not a good connecting point to travel onward to Japan" with...
"Hmm, might wanna check that again, seeing as the "the topic" is SLC to Korea...."
Try reading yourself and what you replied to. You replied with a lack of geographic knowledge saying ICN is a good transit point for US to Japan. It isn't and it certainly isn't now as you said it was in your reply.
You replied to this statement "Seoul is not a good connecting point to travel onward to Japan" with "That's not even remotely accurate", gave a short example of why JAL had a merger 20 years ago then said it was still true today with traffic data that isn't even real.
Try reading what you wrote. ICN isn't a good connection for US to Japan. Or, alternatively, just admit when you're wrong and move on.
When you write "even today still command a large percentage of Japanese regional and longhaul travel. You only need to look at a map to see why." then try to say you weren't talking about today... give me a break. no need to admit you're wrong when you don't have a map.
It's not a cute look. Try not making dogmatic statements to be rude to other posters. You won't look as foolish when you're wrong.
It's amusing how you seem to believe that simply repeating the same erroneous statements will somehow make them accurate the second time around.
Blabber at me all you want, but it won't change the simple fact that ICN can, does, and long since has, provided ample and adequate connections between Japanese cities and routes all over the world, including N.America.
So much so, that the Japanese at one point changed their aviation regulations to allow...
It's amusing how you seem to believe that simply repeating the same erroneous statements will somehow make them accurate the second time around.
Blabber at me all you want, but it won't change the simple fact that ICN can, does, and long since has, provided ample and adequate connections between Japanese cities and routes all over the world, including N.America.
So much so, that the Japanese at one point changed their aviation regulations to allow Seoul (initially GMP, but later ICN) to be the sole international gateway with scheduled international service out of HND, during the NRT-only years (TPE had scheduled-charter status).
LAX772LR,
Yes. And ATL can connect OKC and SHV and probably does for some. ICN obviously can connect Japanese cities with North America. But that doesn't make it a good connection point which was your point and what you wrote though you seem unable to read your own writing.
Again, it's 800 miles out of the way for any major japanese city to connect in ICN vs HND.
You can keep trying...
LAX772LR,
Yes. And ATL can connect OKC and SHV and probably does for some. ICN obviously can connect Japanese cities with North America. But that doesn't make it a good connection point which was your point and what you wrote though you seem unable to read your own writing.
Again, it's 800 miles out of the way for any major japanese city to connect in ICN vs HND.
You can keep trying to ignore what you wrote and do your usual game of being a know it all that you do here and other sites, But when you can't even read what you wrote... you're only showing your true colors. A know it all that actually doesn't have a map
You replied to today because the article is about TODAY and ICN's ability to run good connections to Japanese cities via ICN. Can it? Of course. Doesn't make it a good connection which you wrote a rude reply to the OP without much knowledge.
I think your actual quote was "You only need to look at a map to see why"
You can quit arguing. It's fairly obvious you don't have a map and the poster below me also noted that this statement from you "and even today still command a large percentage of Japanese regional and longhaul travel. " is also false.
Move along. No harm admitting when you're just wrong. Just stop making yourself look worse.
Maybe I’m looking at the map wrong, but Haneda for either JL or NH does serve more cities in Asia than Incheon for KE or OZ mainly because of the large amount of Japanese domestic markets served by Haneda over Incheon.
Per MIDT data, over 96% of Japan-US O&D transits Japan itself with around 3% for SK and 1% for China.
At least for the US-Japan market, it’s generally accepted in the industry that...
Maybe I’m looking at the map wrong, but Haneda for either JL or NH does serve more cities in Asia than Incheon for KE or OZ mainly because of the large amount of Japanese domestic markets served by Haneda over Incheon.
Per MIDT data, over 96% of Japan-US O&D transits Japan itself with around 3% for SK and 1% for China.
At least for the US-Japan market, it’s generally accepted in the industry that Haneda has advantages over Incheon as a connecting point. From the US, Haneda has less circuity than Incheon and is less affected by Russian overflight. Incheon’s advantage is higher amount of secondary and tertiary city service in Asia outside of Japan.
Regardless, always enjoy your insightful comments!
The others are referring to the era which HND international traffic is severe limited by Japanese government at that time only domestics flights within Japan and Taiwan GMP SHA flights can use HND and HND's international terminal at that time only have less than 10 gates. At that time both Korean Air, Asiana and China Eastern are picking up those originate from smaller cities in Japan to other international destination by through PVG and ICN....
The others are referring to the era which HND international traffic is severe limited by Japanese government at that time only domestics flights within Japan and Taiwan GMP SHA flights can use HND and HND's international terminal at that time only have less than 10 gates. At that time both Korean Air, Asiana and China Eastern are picking up those originate from smaller cities in Japan to other international destination by through PVG and ICN. After current terminal 3 opened at HND international traffic picked up and allow connection to other domestic Japan destinations.
I’m a bit surprised Delta doesn’t operate a JFK-ICN route to provide one-stop Asia options on its own metal. Any idea why they don’t? Hard to believe Delta doesn’t offer any flights to Asia from JFK when it otherwise offers tons of flights to Europe, as well as flights to Africa and South America.
Korean Air flies there already, so they have no need to. Simply put, US airlines, especially Delta, have higher cost structures, so they need to be selective with what they operate.
What they did miss out on is JFK-HND, which is a big hole in their coverage. They're the only big 3 carrier in the US to not have an NYC to TYO flight.
That's a bit like saying they don't need to fly to AMS because KLM already flies that route.
It's just far lower priority. SLC has no TPAC connectivity at all right now. JFK at least has 2x KE flights to serve the local customers.
If Delta were truly strong at JFK, then they should indeed eventually expand to do their own ICN flights.
Why?
JFK is a slot-controlled airport. KE already has the slots for the ICN run. DL can use their slots for something different.
"That's a bit like saying they don't need to fly to AMS because KLM already flies that route."
And yet, in a hub market like LAX, they don't. For that very reason.
Same applies here.
@yoloswag420: Higher cost structures and an inferior product. The worn and tired Delta 767 versus anything Korean Air has to offer makes it an easy choice, if there actually would be one.
"The worn and tired Delta 767 versus anything Korean Air has to offer makes it an easy choice,"
In business, yes. In coach, that'd be an entirely different story, if they competed.
Some of Delta's 767s have premium economy, none of Korean's fleet yet does. Also, for those on the lowest fares, a 767 only has a 1-in-7 chance of ending up in a middle seat, whereas everything in Korean's fleet has a higher probability.
I wouldn't be too surprised to see Delta do routes like JFK-ICN or LAX-AMS as their new planes come in. Delta has increased gauge rather dramatically with their new replacement aircraft and they won't be able to, as profitably, serve smaller dots. The future seems like it'll be much more about connecting people abroad.
There are some who seem to think Delta is going to open up a whole new batch of destinations from...
I wouldn't be too surprised to see Delta do routes like JFK-ICN or LAX-AMS as their new planes come in. Delta has increased gauge rather dramatically with their new replacement aircraft and they won't be able to, as profitably, serve smaller dots. The future seems like it'll be much more about connecting people abroad.
There are some who seem to think Delta is going to open up a whole new batch of destinations from SEA or LAX, but the more likely outcome, in my opinion, is new routes going to major JV hubs where all the people on those planes can connect elsewhere whether in ICN, GRU, AMS, or (at some point) even CPH.
Delta has new planes coming (though nothing like United) but they have a lot of ancient birds to retire too
I'm pretty sure most logical people are understanding that most DL expansion will just be JV hub routes.
The real question is if it will be successful. Delta on LAX to LHR had abyssmal load factors in the 30 to 40% range, despite it being the #1 international destination from LAX.
Delta will fly JFK and LAX to ICN on their own metal.
DL and KE are both waiting for approval of the KE/OZ merger.
Just as with the JV with KE, you wait until government approval is received.
OZ is going to be absorbed into KE but neither DL or KE have added flights to markets where OZ and KE both fly.
KE says the OZ merger should be approved within the next month by the US DOJ, the only government left to approve it.
‘American and Delta are both incredibly uncreative across the Pacific, especially in comparison to United. United actually tries to fly directly to destinations in Asia that people want to travel to, while American and Delta both just funnel people through their joint venture hubs, which are Tokyo (HND & NRT) and Seoul Incheon (ICN), respectively.’
What a beautiful comment made by Ben and I am sure Tim cannot handle it. DL mostly just relies on...
‘American and Delta are both incredibly uncreative across the Pacific, especially in comparison to United. United actually tries to fly directly to destinations in Asia that people want to travel to, while American and Delta both just funnel people through their joint venture hubs, which are Tokyo (HND & NRT) and Seoul Incheon (ICN), respectively.’
What a beautiful comment made by Ben and I am sure Tim cannot handle it. DL mostly just relies on its JV hub with KE. And now Mrs. Delta predicts DL is making a comeback to Hong Kong and Singapore? Why? Delta only flies to where it can actually compete and make money and you can see how it is limited as Ben has pointed out in that paragraph. Let me see: Choose DL over an Asian carrier to HK and SG? I am not hating on DL but Tim you just drool over this airline way too much.
I have no idea what the numbers would look like for this flight but as someone based in Boise that flies to Incheon often this would be pretty nice. I can see myself driving down to SLC to fly to ICN
Assuming you're looking to take the new DL SLC-ICN flight why wouldn't you just fly BOI-SLC-ICN on DL instead of driving 5-hours to SLC? I can almost guarantee it'll be cheaper to start the trip in BOI than at a hub station like SLC, too.
That'd be cool too. I make the drive pretty often and it's not a bad drive at all
I live in DFW and have to go to Pocatello fairly often. I fly AA to SLC and then instead of taking the DL hop over to Pocatello I rent a car and drive 2.5-3 hours. It's beautiful and peaceful.
How’s about just fly AS to SEA and change to KE? KE is also a partner of AS ;-)
That's what I normally do. It'd just be nice to change it up every once in a while
"across the Atlantic, to other SkyTeam hubs, including Amsterdam (AMS), London (LHR), and Paris (CDG)."
LHR is across the Atlantic, but it isn't a SkyTeam hub. Might want to edit the wording of that sentence...
https://www.skyteam.com/en/flight-and-destinations/skyteam-hubs
Virgin Atlantic, literally with "Atlantic" in it's name is SkyTeam with LHR as a hub.
Might want to edit the wording of that sentence...
In a way, I can see OP’s reasoning; even though LHR is officially a hub, if I book a DL flight from the US to a mainland European city not directly served by DL, I am much more likely to connect to AMS and CDG than LHR
Delta and its JV partners have hubs at 3 of the 4 busiest hubs in Europe - LHR, CDG and AMS
LHR isn't that useful as a ST hub though for those flying from the US to connect to Asian or Africa. Not on the level that LHR works as a oneworld hub.
As wooootles said, only really works as a ST hub if you are flying from LHR to the US.
Delta uses Heathrow as a hub for Virgin's services throughout India and Africa, from all of its and Virgin's US gateways.
Which is what...5 or 6 destinations combined? At least with other hub partners you get some of that and more plus flight to Europe. Virgin as a hub partner is really weak.
So? That, and what other co-located hubs do; don't change the fact that it's a hub for them.
Even Star Alliance calls LHR a hub, despite none of their members being based there.
Nice to see a transpac out of SLC although i lol'd when i saw it was to ICN. it's like DL forgets there are Asian cities that aren't Seoul and Tokyo
So what are you suggesting Delta should start Salt Lake City-Xi'an just to prove to people like you they know there's other cities in Asia other than Seoul and Tokyo?
Only thing to lol about is your weird comment...
Should have started some transpac hub to Xi’an, absolutely. No one wants to fly to ICN for everything
The A339 along with 787-10 is a great aircraft for West Coast-Asia as well as West Coast-EU routes.
I forsee Altitude issues and weather issues. Good luck getting a full plane off.
Delta operated two A350 charters for the Mormon church nonstop from SLC to Manila - much further than to ICN.
We don't know how full those flights were but they undoubtedly had a bunch of choir and orchestral equipment.
The A350 will have no problem operating SLC-ICN unless they schedule it in the middle of the afternoon.
The A350 operates from JNB with up to 275 passenger from an airport that is much higher than...
Delta operated two A350 charters for the Mormon church nonstop from SLC to Manila - much further than to ICN.
We don't know how full those flights were but they undoubtedly had a bunch of choir and orchestral equipment.
The A350 will have no problem operating SLC-ICN unless they schedule it in the middle of the afternoon.
The A350 operates from JNB with up to 275 passenger from an airport that is much higher than SLC for up to 2 more hours.
It will likely leave late morning so minimal heat-related payload restrictions.
I forsee (sic) Attitude issues and fluff.
Good luck shutting Tim Dunn up.
I see - no need to even foresee - someone that can't admit that what I have been saying for years would happen is now happening.
Wouldn't be much challenge for the A350.
Their A330s might struggle though. I doubt they'll try TPAC again from there with the -200s, but the -900s might find it difficult as well.
DL is going to shift A330NEOs to the Atlantic as they add new A350s and convert the ex-Latam A350s to DL standard which means they will be available for use on the Pacific instead of as high capacity transatlantic aircraft to southern EUrope
As I have said for months, ICN is on track to become Delta's largest city in Asia - this addition will tie it with HND (which, btw is not a joint venture hub for DL) - and also the largest US carrier operation in Asia, over 5 years after the NRT hub was dismantled.
DL has been waiting patiently for multiple governments to approve the KE-OZ merger and added ATL-ICN #2 this year since OZ...
As I have said for months, ICN is on track to become Delta's largest city in Asia - this addition will tie it with HND (which, btw is not a joint venture hub for DL) - and also the largest US carrier operation in Asia, over 5 years after the NRT hub was dismantled.
DL has been waiting patiently for multiple governments to approve the KE-OZ merger and added ATL-ICN #2 this year since OZ doesn't fly to ATL and will now add SLC which has no TPAC service on any carrier.
This move will also bring the A350 to SLC - which was expected to help resolve payload issues on very hot summer days from SLC to Europe.
DL also said they would upgauge the new SEA-TPE flight to the A350 which, with CX's decision to start DFW-HKG and not SEA means that the chances are pretty decent that DL will use an A350 to start SEA-HKG.
As I have also said, DL's priority was to secure whatever it wanted in Tokyo...It passed on JFK-HND and now has the most destinations from HND to the US of any US carrier ON THEIR OWN METAL.
Now DL is in the process of jointly building ICN which will see multiple new flights in the next couple years while DL also adds new spokes.
HKG and SIN are both likely to be restarted. The newest A359s can easily do LAX-SIN and any of DL's A350s can do SEA to anywhere in E. Asia or the S. Pacific.
If UA can make money flying the Pacific, DL will keep adding flights.
DL just happens to have more than 2 dozen new and ex-Latam A350s that could be available for Pacific expansion over the next few years.
what a typically Tim whitewash of Delta's actual retreat from Haneda. "Passed on JFK-HND"? lol.
Only question is how long before they leave HNL-HND.
Seems you plan to make this article your next nonsensical all day rant about Delta.
You've already hit the A350, Haneda, United is lousy to Asia but delta rocks from the Eastern US, and "Sea is going to grow; I know it!!!" Bingo squares.
And NONE of those...
what a typically Tim whitewash of Delta's actual retreat from Haneda. "Passed on JFK-HND"? lol.
Only question is how long before they leave HNL-HND.
Seems you plan to make this article your next nonsensical all day rant about Delta.
You've already hit the A350, Haneda, United is lousy to Asia but delta rocks from the Eastern US, and "Sea is going to grow; I know it!!!" Bingo squares.
And NONE of those are even on topic for the article.
Save yourself at least a little dignity today.
we're not going down this path, Julie.
You absolutely can't stand that Delta has the best Pacific strategy in the industry right now.
No, United is not lousy but they retreated to the west coast and built a powerhouse at SFO - but they serve precisely one city - Tokyo - from every other hub outside of the west coast.
American's Asia system is reduced to DFW and a coupe more Tokyo flights.
DL...
we're not going down this path, Julie.
You absolutely can't stand that Delta has the best Pacific strategy in the industry right now.
No, United is not lousy but they retreated to the west coast and built a powerhouse at SFO - but they serve precisely one city - Tokyo - from every other hub outside of the west coast.
American's Asia system is reduced to DFW and a coupe more Tokyo flights.
DL has the most flights at HND to the US on US CARRIER METAL - and no they are not going to drop HNL - and are now building ICN into the largest US carrier operation in Asia.
and, yes, the A350 is the most capable longhaul aircraft. AA cxld its order; UA keeps pushing it back.
and, yes, SEA is going to keep growing.
take your sour grapes elsewhere
"we're not going down this path..."
And yet you did and are. Get a life. It's amazing how pathetic you are.
And no, Delta is not growing at SEA. they don't have the gates to do it. They may substitute two domestic flights for one international one due to gate timing, but you just don't understand the industry or Seattle if you think Delta is growing there.
Alaska is likely to grow international there and...
"we're not going down this path..."
And yet you did and are. Get a life. It's amazing how pathetic you are.
And no, Delta is not growing at SEA. they don't have the gates to do it. They may substitute two domestic flights for one international one due to gate timing, but you just don't understand the industry or Seattle if you think Delta is growing there.
Alaska is likely to grow international there and we'll see how long Delta lasts in Seattle before their inevitable retreat just like Narita where they could still have a hub today but they couldn't compete against a superior product like JL & NH.
But again. The article is about SLC and ICN, not the A350, not Delta's retreat from Tokyo or their smallest position there of the US3, not Seattle, not United, not Delta's inferior position in Asia vs United...
It's about SLC and ICN. Go have your mom make you some hot pockets
"we're not going down this path"
Timmy, you didn't go down a path, you went down a rabbit hole. The amount of inconsistent insanity to just praise Delta is laughable. Give it a rest. Try using your life in a more useful way. Ask your doctor for advice if you have to. I'm sure that even you can be saved.
@Julie
Bingo with Tim is always fun!
Delta - The world's only PERFECT airline.
nope.
Delta has demonstrated that it has the best strategists in the US industry.
I won't recount the whole deal w/ Tokyo but AA and UA wanted desperately to have a JV partner so traded greater access to HND for those JVs and HND for all airlines is siphoning off the best and highest value Tokyo traffic from NRT.
DL moved its connecting hub to ICN with KE which is a far larger hub...
nope.
Delta has demonstrated that it has the best strategists in the US industry.
I won't recount the whole deal w/ Tokyo but AA and UA wanted desperately to have a JV partner so traded greater access to HND for those JVs and HND for all airlines is siphoning off the best and highest value Tokyo traffic from NRT.
DL moved its connecting hub to ICN with KE which is a far larger hub than either NRT or HND.
and DL still has the most flights from HND to the US.
DL is now getting the planes it needs to rebuild its Pacific network and they will do it from a position of considerable strength and strategic advantage.
Waiting for Tim Dunn to copy & replace KE with MU and ICN with PVG once China picks up traffic again.
"but AA and UA wanted desperately to have a JV partner "
The way your mind twists history is truly amazing. Delta was the one Desperate to steal JAL and couldn't. They then whined incessantly to DOT about Haneda and then after that sent DOT an entire slide show about how awful their Haneda flights are doing before giving up the PDX slot to AA since Delta knew they had zero profitable options to...
"but AA and UA wanted desperately to have a JV partner "
The way your mind twists history is truly amazing. Delta was the one Desperate to steal JAL and couldn't. They then whined incessantly to DOT about Haneda and then after that sent DOT an entire slide show about how awful their Haneda flights are doing before giving up the PDX slot to AA since Delta knew they had zero profitable options to backfill PDX-HND.
History is just history, Tim.
"DL is now getting the planes it needs to rebuild its Pacific network and they will do it from a position of considerable strength and strategic advantage."
oh yes... considerable strength and advantage meaning half the size of Alaska in Seattle and the smallest alliance and JV position in LAX and SoCal are SUCH amazing advantages (sarcasm). How long did Delta last with their LAX growth? Was it 2-3 months before pulling back? Even domestically, you wouldn't shut up about Delta's amazing gate at Love Field and LAX-DAL lasted all of 2-3 months before Delta retreated. Delta can't fly LAX-Heathrow on their own metal much less keep AKL year-round in the schedule for more than a few months despite their marketing on the topic. And now, the "vaunted" Delta at LAX let United take the LAX-PVG entirely on their own despite your claims of Delta's might in Asia AND Delta having the partner in PVG.
You can spout your usual dogma all you want, but it's just that, the ravings of someone that has no idea what they're talking about. Delta does not have any particular advantages in Asia unlike United with their SFO hub.
Delta at LAX is pretty severe, I wonder why no one talks about it.
Delta's LAX-LHR route had the following load factors from this year before they had to exit:
- Jan: 43%
- Feb: 35%
- March: 64%
- April: 58%
- May: 57%
Keep in mind LHR is the #1 destination for LAX as well with over 1.5M pax annually.
Would love to see LAX-SIN on DL.
"HKG and SIN are both likely to be restarted."
DL has given all of ~ZERO~ indication of that.
They may, as neither market is legally hard to get into, and the airline will have more aircraft coming in. But more than likely those aircraft will just end up on ICN/CDG/AMS/LHR, likenearly all year-round Delta longhauls introduced in the post Covid-era.
and yet DL announced precisely ZERO new flights for 2025 to LHR, AMS or CDG.
the net of their 2025 transatlantic expansion uses 4 to 5 aircraft. They will receive 14 new aircraft in 2024 and several more in 2025. Net of expected 767 retirements of about 6 aircraft, DL has about 10-12 aircraft worth of growth capacity for use in 2025.
"and yet DL announced precisely ZERO new flights for 2025 to LHR, AMS or CDG."
Why would they? Paris has company metal to every hub already, they're maxed on Amsterdam after adding winter Florida, and Heathrow just used the last two available slots on an additional Atlanta plus Orlando for fall. Regardless, I said newer aircraft are more likely to end up at those hubs (I didn't say new routes) than they are relaunching Hong...
"and yet DL announced precisely ZERO new flights for 2025 to LHR, AMS or CDG."
Why would they? Paris has company metal to every hub already, they're maxed on Amsterdam after adding winter Florida, and Heathrow just used the last two available slots on an additional Atlanta plus Orlando for fall. Regardless, I said newer aircraft are more likely to end up at those hubs (I didn't say new routes) than they are relaunching Hong Kong or Singapore. Which again, Delta hasn't shown the slightest bit of interest in doing, versus you acting like they're some kind of guaranteed surety.
The reason that United can fly directly to so many destinations in Asia is primarily because of its strong West Coast hub in SFO. Local demand from SFO rivals that of LAX and United maintains a monopoly among US carriers in long haul flights from SFO. SEA does not command that much local traffic and LAX is split between AA, DL and UA, favouring foreign airlines. There are also many more Star Alliance hubs in...
The reason that United can fly directly to so many destinations in Asia is primarily because of its strong West Coast hub in SFO. Local demand from SFO rivals that of LAX and United maintains a monopoly among US carriers in long haul flights from SFO. SEA does not command that much local traffic and LAX is split between AA, DL and UA, favouring foreign airlines. There are also many more Star Alliance hubs in Asia Pacific than other alliance hubs. HND/NRT, PEK, (PVG), ICN, TPE, SIN, AKL, BKK, DEL and BOM are all Star Alliance or combinations with Star Alliance. So UA can funnel traffic through more destinations than the other carriers can.
and the converse is that United doesn't fly to any city other than Tokyo from any hub that is not on the west coast.
DL flies to 3 cities (HND, ICN and PVG) from DTW and 2 each from ATL and MSP.
It isn't hard to see that UA might have an advantage from the west coast but DL is in a stronger position to E.Asia from the Eastern US.
@Tim Dunn
How is DL in a stronger position to E.Asia from the Eastern US when the only hub in the Eastern US it flys to Asia from is ATL. This is the exact same for AA as they only fly to E.Asia from one Eastern US hub (JFK-HND).
IF DL is in such a stronger position why does it completely ignore E.Asia from their other two Eastern US hubs - JFK & BOS?
...@Tim Dunn
How is DL in a stronger position to E.Asia from the Eastern US when the only hub in the Eastern US it flys to Asia from is ATL. This is the exact same for AA as they only fly to E.Asia from one Eastern US hub (JFK-HND).
IF DL is in such a stronger position why does it completely ignore E.Asia from their other two Eastern US hubs - JFK & BOS?
*Neither DTW or MSP are in the Eastern US. They are both in the Midwest, so I hope you're not trying to say that DL is stronger because you think those are Eastern US hubs.
IF DL is in such a stronger position why does it completely ignore E.Asia from their other two Eastern US hubs - JFK & BOS?
Because DL isn't actually that strong from its Eastern hubs. Delta mainline (not connection) actually carries more pax at SEA than BOS, and SEA is a "failing hub". And only marginally more from JFK.
Delta thrives off of its interior hubs (SLC/MSP/DTW), but doesn't actually have a single majority market...
IF DL is in such a stronger position why does it completely ignore E.Asia from their other two Eastern US hubs - JFK & BOS?
Because DL isn't actually that strong from its Eastern hubs. Delta mainline (not connection) actually carries more pax at SEA than BOS, and SEA is a "failing hub". And only marginally more from JFK.
Delta thrives off of its interior hubs (SLC/MSP/DTW), but doesn't actually have a single majority market share position at any of its coastal hubs (LAX/SEA/BOS/JFK) aside from ATL.
we clearly need a geography lesson.
"eastern US" is not "east coast"
Yes, DTW, MSP, and ATL are all in the eastern US.
Pull out a map and look at where those cities lie relative to the Mississippi River.
It doesn't matter if you change the statement to "east of the Rockies" or "hubs not on the west coast" DL has service to HND and ICN - two major cities from 3 hubs...
we clearly need a geography lesson.
"eastern US" is not "east coast"
Yes, DTW, MSP, and ATL are all in the eastern US.
Pull out a map and look at where those cities lie relative to the Mississippi River.
It doesn't matter if you change the statement to "east of the Rockies" or "hubs not on the west coast" DL has service to HND and ICN - two major cities from 3 hubs while UA has service only to Tokyo.
And DL, in total has more service from Tokyo HND and Seoul ICN from more cities in the US than UA. Even if NRT for UA and AA is equivalent from a connecting standpoint to ICN for DL, DL in total has more flights from the US.
as noted, DL will serve JFK once the KE-OZ merger is approved.
As for your hub characterizations, if DL can have all of the "failing hubs" you think they do and still be the most profitable US airline, then AA and UA clearly missed the hub in creating profitable hubs to support all of their own boondoggles
UA's larger size comes only from
none of which changes that DL has service to