Several days ago, I first wrote about the rumor of Delta introducing a new type of wide body aircraft. This now has a bit more credibility, so let’s go over what we know…
In this post:
Delta close to placing a Boeing 787 Dreamliner order
If you read the OMAAT comments section of any post about Delta, you’ve surely seen commentary from Tim Dunn. In one of his comments several days ago — no, not the one where he claimed United is “in a tailspin” and Delta “keeps climbing” — he wrote about how his “sources” claim that Delta is nearing a Boeing 787-10 order:
My sources say DL is close to pulling the trigger on a 787 order and it would most likely be for the -10.
It was never realistic that DL would have a 100% Airbus widebody fleet.
Boeing and GE put a compelling offer on DL’s plate when DL was evaluating the 787 vs. A350-1000. DL went with the -1000 for the range and performance. With 20 -1000s confirmed and up to 20 more Airbus widebodies on option, I suspect that DL will have placed its last Airbus widebody order and option conversion within a couple years.
The 787-10, as you know, is very economical, is well-suited for TATL and S. America flights, and supports DL’s upgauging of its international network just as DL did on its domestic network.
I would strongly believe that delivery of the 787s will begin as the 763ERs are removed from international service – eliminating a widebody international category – and the order and options will be for 40-50 aircraft by the early 2030s.
The rumor generally made sense, and we now have more reason to believe it’s true, as JonNYC confirms that Delta is finalizing a Dreamliner order. It could be announced in late 2025 or early 2026, with the 787-10 likely being one of the variants included in this order. Don’t necessarily assume deliveries will be imminent, as this is part of the Atlanta-based carrier’s long term fleet renewal strategy.
JonNYC has a good track record on this kind of stuff (well… on just about everything), so we should definitely believe that this is the current thinking at Delta with the caveat that nothing is certain until the first plane is delivered.
For context, the 787-10 is the largest variant of the Dreamliner. While it has the least range of any Dreamliner variant, the per-seat economics are great, given how it’s “stretched.” When it comes to Delta’s wide body fleet renewal, this has been focused on two aircraft types:
- Delta’s flagship aircraft is the Airbus A350, with 38 A350-900s currently in the fleet (and six more more on order), plus 20 A350-1000s on order; these planes are used primarily for transpacific and other ultra long haul flying
- Delta’s secondary long haul aircraft is the Airbus A330-900neo, with 36 in the fleet (and three more on order); these planes are used primarily for transatlantic flying
Beyond that, there are the more outdated aircraft that Delta will have to replace over time:
- Delta operates 42 A330ceos, with 11 A330-200s and 31 A330-300s; these planes are an average of 16-20 years old, which is downright young by Delta standards, and they’re likely here to stay for some time
- Delta operates 60 Boeing 767s, with 39 767-300ERs and 21 767-400ERs; these planes are an average of 25-30 years old, and the 767-300ERs are expected to be withdrawn from international operations by the end of the decade
My take on Delta placing a Boeing wide body aircraft order
Sooner or later, Delta will need to place another wide body aircraft order. Delta has over 100 “last generation” wide body jets, and eventually we’ll need to see replacements for the 767-300ERs, A330-200s, 767-400ERs, and A330-300s (probably in that order — it seems the A330-300s are here to stay, as Delta is planning new cabins for these jets). With that in mind, a few thoughts:
- Unlike American and United, Delta hasn’t ordered the A321XLR (admittedly not a wide body, but it is a long haul aircraft); it seems executives at the carrier aren’t crazy about the plane, but as Delta increasingly upgauges long haul aircraft, there are some markets where the economics may become more challenging
- The 787-10 has fantastic economics; it’s a bit bigger than the A330-900neo, while still being able to operate Delta’s entire Europe and South America network
- Focusing on three different kinds of long haul aircraft is more of a diversified strategy than what you’ll find at American and United, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing, given that the scale of the fleets we’re talking about
- Eventually, Delta’s smallest long haul aircraft may be the A330-900neo, with 281 seats, and that’s around 30% more seats than you’ll find on the 767-300ER, with 211-216 seats
So yeah, not only do we have reason to believe this order is being planned, but the logic also tracks. The 787-10 seems like a good fit for Delta, given the number of planes that Delta will eventually need to replace. With the tariff situation, maybe a Boeing order is also a good way to diversify.
It’s quite a different strategy than you’ll find at United, where the airline has plans for an eventual fleet of 200+ Dreamliners. For that matter, there are also rumors of American eventually placing a 787-10 order, to eventually replace older 777s. So it remains to be seen whether American or Delta place an order first.
Bottom line
Delta is rumored to be nearing a Boeing 787 order, with the 787-10 being the most likely variant that the airline will order. This makes sense, as Delta does eventually need to place another wide body aircraft order, as 767s and A330ceos are retired down the road.
While Delta has been a loyal Airbus wide body customer in recent years, it’s logical enough that the airline may eventually want to diversify from the A330neo and A350. The 787-10 seems like a good fit for Delta, given its excellent per-seat economics, making it a great jet for Europe and South America flying.
What do you make of the prospect of Delta ordering the Dreamliner?
Latest in house rumor is that Delta will initially take some 787’s from LATAM and AeroMexico who are looking to offload theirs. Time will tell. Supposedly an AQP already submitted to FAA
Honestly, this could be Delta’s pivotal decision to have a truly streamlined, simplified fleet… They need to replace the 763, 764, 332, and 333’s. Their modern wide body fleet consists of 339’s, 359’s and soon to be 35K’s. In essence if they order the 787, I would speculate they order BOTH the 787-10 AND the 787-9 together. The 789’s definitely would be used on those long, thin premium routes where the 350’s are too big...
Honestly, this could be Delta’s pivotal decision to have a truly streamlined, simplified fleet… They need to replace the 763, 764, 332, and 333’s. Their modern wide body fleet consists of 339’s, 359’s and soon to be 35K’s. In essence if they order the 787, I would speculate they order BOTH the 787-10 AND the 787-9 together. The 789’s definitely would be used on those long, thin premium routes where the 350’s are too big and it would leave Delta with three types of wide bodies going forward! Let’s see what happens!
767s until end of the decade. Arg. Such a bad passenger experience.
I can confirm that Delta will be adding more planes and flying them
Credit to Tim when it's due.
But one fact doesn't negate a million fluff.
Sadly this confirms 2 things.
1. JonNYC is still more credible.
2. Tim has a 'source' inside Delta just confirms he really did get fired by Delta. At least some are still talking to you.
2a. Or Tim just hacked someone in Delta.
Broken clock moment. Use of alts and astroturfing deserves a ban by itself
I love this blog and read it daily, but seeing how Mr. Dunn being quoted as source, I will be on hiatus from this blog for awhile.
Tim doesn't do his thing on a single article not related to DL or airline ops/performance. You guys are so dramatic. What did you pay for all the other content on this site? Oh right, nothing.
Why does it make sense for Delta to have A350s, A330s, and B787s, but AA and UA have only B787s and B777s.
first, DL and UA are both years off from getting rid of all of their 767 fleets.
second, the A350 is simply a more capable and more efficient widebody. UA has A350s on order and I suspect will have no choice but to make a commitment to the A350 or convert some of those 787s to 777-8 orders (and throw in some big-backside 777-9s for good measure) or watch DL do things w/ their A350...
first, DL and UA are both years off from getting rid of all of their 767 fleets.
second, the A350 is simply a more capable and more efficient widebody. UA has A350s on order and I suspect will have no choice but to make a commitment to the A350 or convert some of those 787s to 777-8 orders (and throw in some big-backside 777-9s for good measure) or watch DL do things w/ their A350 fleet that UA can only dream about.
and yet the 787, because it is a lighter airframe than the 350 has better economics as the - 10.
and DL is expected to get the engine overhaul contract from GE for the GEnx engines which opens up another revenue stream which generates higher margins than the passenger business; AA and UA are simply not pursuing those MRO rights
This blog is turning into The Tim Dunn Show, with guest appearances by Lucky.
Seriously, Ben, get control of your own product. This guy doesn't run your site. You do. You set the tone and the content, and he either reads it or moves on. You produce, and he consumes. Reverse that structure at your own peril.
Now there’s a thing JamesW …. :-)
Tim - and also, Tim - Your transparent sock-puppet accounts really only amplify how bizarrely obsessed you are with other people's blogs and content.
If I were Ben, I'd get to banning your many whack-a-mole alts, and then invest in a home security system. Something tells me a man with your amount of manic energy and free time would become very dangerous if his outlet were taken away.
Tim had the scoop and you don't like the blog, then just move on.
No one if forcing you to read these articles.
Ben knows full well who is using multiple usernames.
I wish he would act but you will be disappointed to find out that won't change what I post.
Agreed on getting rid of Lil Timmy. It is all DL bias all the time. They can do no wrong. Same 10 talking points repeated ad nauseam daily. Insults if you dare point out any OAL competitive strength vs DL.
Ben your impressions may drop a whole tenth of a percentage point - worth it.
Airbus fanboys and Tim and his alias Aero. So much human scum concentrated in one location.
Jealousy ORD, will only illicit comments containing a truth which you might prefer not to read old bean.
Under the login ‘Julie’ and ‘Plane Jane’ one or two prolific website trolls post insane comments below. How droll, how utterly pathetic, almost as the Bad_Karp_Arps infant.
so much time on your hands, Tim
funny how you claim to be bipolar and schizophrenic after previously claiming that people are using your user name.
None of us really care but I do hope you get help. and if you are mentally healthy, then it shouldn't be that hard to understand the concept of registering your username w/ OMAAT. Of course, doing so means you can't use multiple usernames with the same email.
and specific to your fixation with my commenting...
funny how you claim to be bipolar and schizophrenic after previously claiming that people are using your user name.
None of us really care but I do hope you get help. and if you are mentally healthy, then it shouldn't be that hard to understand the concept of registering your username w/ OMAAT. Of course, doing so means you can't use multiple usernames with the same email.
and specific to your fixation with my commenting about UA, your mental illness or your fixation w/ me clearly blinds you to the reality that I mention UA in comparative terms as much as I do because UA EXECS and esp. Scott Kirby spends more time comparing UA's performance to other airlines -both good and bad - not only of just about any other airline EVER but also among US corporate execs.
UA HAS done a remarkable turnaround but Kirby is clearly so insecure that he has to trash talk most of the rest of the industry while putting UA in a category that includes DL.
and he has set the climate that exists with UA execs and also with their internet fan base.
I have said many times that I will quit ragging on UA and Scott Kirby if he can get through an earnings call without trash talking everyone except DL and UA and ALSO quit comparing UA to DL which only invites comparisons of how UA has not closed the gap and why DL keeps outsmarting UA at the games that UA claims it does so much better than anyone else.
Scott Kirby, UA execs and UA fans would all do well to take the wins that are rightfully theirs, quit comparing themselves to others - both good and bad, and truly succeed at being the best in their strategies instead of comparing themselves to a carrier that has yet to play second fiddle to anyone and esp. an airline and exec team that touts its strategies in public.
specific to this topic, UA led the US airline industry in ordering the B787-10; DL and AA can see the data on the aircraft and are good enough customers to Boeing that Boeing will sell them, regardless whether Kirby or any UA fan thinks that UA's massive order blocks any other customer from ordering, let alone receiving Boeing aircraft anytime in the next 3-5 years which is when I believe DL will receive its first 787s.
I live rent free in your head 9 paragraphs later... ;)
I hope you and your multiple personalities have a great weekend, Tim. Ben can easily see that your "julie" posts are not from me. But I don't care aside from the reply to let others know it's just Tim Dunn using alt names again or trying to take over other names... again.
But like I've said many times, it's a comment section on...
I live rent free in your head 9 paragraphs later... ;)
I hope you and your multiple personalities have a great weekend, Tim. Ben can easily see that your "julie" posts are not from me. But I don't care aside from the reply to let others know it's just Tim Dunn using alt names again or trying to take over other names... again.
But like I've said many times, it's a comment section on a great aviation website. That you seem to admire my username so much to use it as your own so much... thank you ;)
Let me tell you something Julie.
Given that I am one of the most prolific users of them, I would know about using alt accounts.
I and everyone can tell from a mile away that you are using them and then liking your own comments with other sock puppets to signal boost them.
how surprising... yet another fraudulent usage of another username... not from the actual Eskimo but Tim and his alter egos
cute attempt.
No, Julie, your blatant trolling is obvious. We can all tell, the jig is up.
thank you to one of Tim's multiple usernames. You must be sad I didn't reply to you below so you're trying again... You're right, "Mason" the "jig" is up. Only Tim refreshes comments to reply within a minute.
The absolute irony of Tim trying to call others out on fake usernames using multiple fake usernames constantly refreshing the comment section to reply within two minutes...
yawn...
Enjoy your weekend. This is pathetic even...
thank you to one of Tim's multiple usernames. You must be sad I didn't reply to you below so you're trying again... You're right, "Mason" the "jig" is up. Only Tim refreshes comments to reply within a minute.
The absolute irony of Tim trying to call others out on fake usernames using multiple fake usernames constantly refreshing the comment section to reply within two minutes...
yawn...
Enjoy your weekend. This is pathetic even by your low standards. Surely you have better uses of your time than spending all day trying to tie usernames together like some complete loser?
Julie/Plain Jane or whomever you are; clearly you must seek medical assistance for your chronic illnesses. One suspects that you probably enjoy self-flagellation along with your other afflictions as you keep returning to the posts of both Tim and I with further derogatory comments. Surely even the most psychologically unbalanced individual would know when to stop their self inflicted suffering, yes?
@Lucky can you confirm that AeroB13a isn’t a Tim Dunn sock account? It’s awfully suspicious…. When he got banned and you did the entire OMAAT community a favor, Timmy comment on other usernames like a loser. Is that one of them?
I imagine they are going to have to send at least two garbage trucks to Tim’s house to be able to collect the amount of toilet paper he must be using today.
Tim’s new favorite term on Gary’s comment section is “shot his wad”
Classy as ever but pertinent to your comment ;)
classy as ever is having the CEO of a company that aspires to be just like DL getting on the news every night for a month and saying the delays at EWR were all the fault of the FAA, demanding that slot controls be reinstated at EWR. The FAA and DOT were having none of being scapegoated for UA's overscheduling of EWR and slapped heavy flight caps on the airport which has handedly shifted the...
classy as ever is having the CEO of a company that aspires to be just like DL getting on the news every night for a month and saying the delays at EWR were all the fault of the FAA, demanding that slot controls be reinstated at EWR. The FAA and DOT were having none of being scapegoated for UA's overscheduling of EWR and slapped heavy flight caps on the airport which has handedly shifted the largest airline in NYC title to DL and flight caps that are likely to remain at EWR for a very long time.
UA exec comments about EWR yesterday were much more in line with what you expect from someone that wants to actually get along with its regulators: UA's schedule is in line w/ what EWR is CAPABLE of supporting which is resulting in better on-time performance than JFK or LGA - which still doesn't say much given the amount of ATC delay activity NE airports have seen.
specific to this discussion, classy as ever is thinking that Boeing would EVER sell out its entire production schedule to ANY single airline so UA needed to place such a massive order. Of course, Boeing isn't going to make DL or any other airline - including Gulf Air - wait for UA's orderbook to be fully delivered.
I can make comments here and it gets a few of you wound up. Scott Kirby and his team can make statements and they get regulators and competitors to do things that prove who understands the industry and who does not.
save your fettishes with toilet paper.
I care about what happens in real life.
That told ‘em Tim. TrollsUnited are out in force recently …. must be the global warming effect upon their brain cell.
Notice how people will call you names, but never call you wrong?
Fact is I and many other users are obsessed with you and love to reply for our own satisfaction.
If we truly didn't care, then we would just ignore.
"Notice how people will call you names, but never call you wrong?
Fact is I and many other users are obsessed with you and love to reply for our own satisfaction.
If we truly didn't care, then we would just ignore."
I see Tim and his love for using other screen names is back in full force, "Julie"
Get a life, Tim and Aero. This is pathetic that you have to resort to using other names to feel satisfaction.
I am not using other names.
I am bipolar schizophrenic, so it makes me have this split personality situation, which manifests like this online.
See how I once again didn't address the facts of the statement? That's how you can tell we are indeed the same and real Julie.
I have never stood for the reality of anything and only resorted to ad hominems and baseless accusations, which stays consistent.
Nothing reminds people how big of a loser Tim is like his constant refresh of the comment page and using other names.
Get a life.
Tim, Your weird fetish for Scott Kirby -- a guy who doesn't even know you exist -- never ceases to amuse.
Scott Kirby spends his day running United and rapidly changing its financial and network results.
Tim Dunn spends his day commenting paragraphs about his Scott Kirby obsession in the comment sections... You can almost read the intense jealousy from Timmy and disbelief that no one ever wanted him as a CEO. ;)...
Tim, Your weird fetish for Scott Kirby -- a guy who doesn't even know you exist -- never ceases to amuse.
Scott Kirby spends his day running United and rapidly changing its financial and network results.
Tim Dunn spends his day commenting paragraphs about his Scott Kirby obsession in the comment sections... You can almost read the intense jealousy from Timmy and disbelief that no one ever wanted him as a CEO. ;)
(and in fairness to you Tim, you also use "insider sources" as a supposed analyst)
You are truly bizarre to reply to yourself 5x in a row in real time.
The brain of a 70 year old. The antics of a toddler. Tim and Aero -- the duo
You'd think you have better things to do with your time, but clearly not.
it is indeed validation to my comments and the article Ben wrote that jon comes by and confirms what I have said.
The 787-10 is ideally suited for TATL travel and fits DL's strategy of upgauging which they did on their domestic system and will do over the next decade on their international system.
while AA and UA get excited about their A321XLRs, DL will be adding a fleet type that can carry twice as...
it is indeed validation to my comments and the article Ben wrote that jon comes by and confirms what I have said.
The 787-10 is ideally suited for TATL travel and fits DL's strategy of upgauging which they did on their domestic system and will do over the next decade on their international system.
while AA and UA get excited about their A321XLRs, DL will be adding a fleet type that can carry twice as many passengers and still have the 767-400 and 330-200 replace the 767-300ERs as the lowest capacity narrowbody.
DL can easily take its remaining Airbus widebody orders - a few remaining 339s, a half dozen 359s and the 20 35Ks - plus the 20 Airbus widebodies (variable on type) and be ready for the 787-10s in the latter part of the decade.
it's also noteworthy that UA execs specifically said that Boeing is still not delivering 787s to delivery schedules so DL's international advantage in getting more widebody deliveries than any other US airline is expanding now.
Tim, serious question if you please?
Will you and I ever see these Boeing aircraft delivered?
Boeing is not delivering much on-time but I will be alive for the delivery of WN's MAX 7s and UA's original MAX 10 orders as well as DL's MAX 10 and 787-10 orders. unless Boeing cancels any of those programs.
I'm not sure if your question is rooted in a lack of belief that Boeing can ever deliver or that you think DL will get behind UA's massive order but both assumptions are false. The...
Boeing is not delivering much on-time but I will be alive for the delivery of WN's MAX 7s and UA's original MAX 10 orders as well as DL's MAX 10 and 787-10 orders. unless Boeing cancels any of those programs.
I'm not sure if your question is rooted in a lack of belief that Boeing can ever deliver or that you think DL will get behind UA's massive order but both assumptions are false. The notion that Boeing won't figure out its problems and that Boeing sells out its entire order book to one airline are wildly distorted from reality.
Thank you Tim, see, some of us appreciate your responses.
Oh yeah at this rate of producing 5 Dreamliners per month to clear a backlog of about 1K it will take more than a decade to do so so get comfortable.
Boeing, just like Airbus, has plans to increase capacity of its aircraft models. The feds are holding back MAX expansion plans but nothing other than Boeing's own ability to manage its production is holding back 787 production expansion.
Boeing is simply not going to lose orders to Airbus because it can't deliver aircraft for a decade. And Boeing is also tired of having to compensate its customers for delivery delays
Last year, I flew QR's B787 and then an A350. Comfort wise, I find the A350 to be superior. The A350 was certainly less noisy than the B787. If pax comfort is taken into account, I am betting on the A350
Airbus has developed just about every model after the comparable Boeing product and that was true w/ the A350 vs. the B787. By going second, Airbus has been able to make its types do more - which is why the 359 flies further and more capably than the 789 and the 350 can be stretched to the 35K while the 787-10 stretch results in a loss of range compared to the 789.
the 787...
Airbus has developed just about every model after the comparable Boeing product and that was true w/ the A350 vs. the B787. By going second, Airbus has been able to make its types do more - which is why the 359 flies further and more capably than the 789 and the 350 can be stretched to the 35K while the 787-10 stretch results in a loss of range compared to the 789.
the 787 family is still wider than the 330 and 767 families; the problem is that Boeing widebodies are made to accommodate two different amounts of seats per row in coach; for the 787 it was originally 8 abreast which is spacious but just about everyone has chosen 9 abreast. Hopefully Boeing can squeeze another couple inches out of the sidewalls
and AA is also likely to order the 787-10 to replace its 777-200ERs and that announcement is certain to be coming.
Boeing is behind schedule but they still need orders to keep coming in
So much Dunn Derangement Syndrome in these comments!
I agree. I will admit I am one of the worst offenders.
It's a sickness of the mind, and I've been going to therapy to cure my obsessive behavior.
It's not normal to think and talk about internet strangers so much all the time.
what is your problem? Using my screen name again?
--The Real Julie
this is pretty pathetic
You are one to talk about pathetic, when you systemtically use so many alt accounts
An order especially by DL will give confidence in the 787 program similar to multiple blue-chip airlines boosting confidence in the MAX. So I can see potential holdouts wary of the 787 to place some orders shortly thereafter. Garuda is about to order some as well. Hopefully we see some CX orders to replace their aging 773As.
Replacing the 767 fleet with 787-8's on a 1:1 basis seems like a no-brainer.
Nah, No, Never going to happen.
It’s ordered the A350-1000 not just because of the fact the -900 is in their fleet, the reliability of Airbus which they realised when NorthWest’s Airbus fleets were merged into Delta, the lack of Reliability of BowRing, the Customer Feedback BUT the the type rating between Airbus Aircraft adds to the overall Rostering performance.
Given that the case of thinking about buying BowRing just because they are American and...
Nah, No, Never going to happen.
It’s ordered the A350-1000 not just because of the fact the -900 is in their fleet, the reliability of Airbus which they realised when NorthWest’s Airbus fleets were merged into Delta, the lack of Reliability of BowRing, the Customer Feedback BUT the the type rating between Airbus Aircraft adds to the overall Rostering performance.
Given that the case of thinking about buying BowRing just because they are American and not likely to be affected by any TACO Tariff. Even if you take the Ceew Training, Maintenance of Aircraft and Engines not forgetting the issues with that you don’t need to ask Gako for a response. I can imagine TACO buying COMAC C929’s as replacement for the C-32 replacement more than this.
Boeing and GE stock are both up about 1% premarket on a day when US market indices are down fractionally. DL is also down fractionally premarket.
There is far more basis for movement of BA and GE stock given that Boeing and the FAA said that they believe the fuel control switches are safe as designed.
and airline stocks typically do not move positively based on large capex announcements.
and none of us should miss the performative rage against me, this rumor and OMAAT that is going on over at the "kiddie table" site where they argue incessantly about why airlines do or don't serve a particular route.
Some people beat their fingers to the bone while others complain that what others write is being picked up by their social media feeds.
psst... if you don't want to see what someone or a...
and none of us should miss the performative rage against me, this rumor and OMAAT that is going on over at the "kiddie table" site where they argue incessantly about why airlines do or don't serve a particular route.
Some people beat their fingers to the bone while others complain that what others write is being picked up by their social media feeds.
psst... if you don't want to see what someone or a site says, don't click on anything from that person or site.
pre-market trends are carrying into the market that is now open.
there was more of an "insider information" risk from Jon Ostrower's reporting early in the Air India investigation that the fuel flow switches were in the CUTOFF position than an airplane order rumor about any airline. and yet there is no information that he financially benefitted based on his confidential sources.
@ Tim Dunn -- "and none of us should miss the performative rage against me, this rumor and OMAAT that is going on over at the 'kiddie table' site where they argue incessantly about why airlines do or don't serve a particular route."
As a wise man once said:
"psst... if you don't want to see what someone or a site says, don't click on anything from that person or site."
@Tim Dunn
The 787-10 is too big to replace the 767-300ER/400ER. In terms of size the right plane will be 787-8 and the A330-800neo. May be Delta wants to increase capacity.
I for one am taking a break from the site until everything DELTA is over with as it’s very frustrating with that person !!!I’ve always enjoyed being able to
see something new and interesting but lately the DL is overwhelming - maybe change the name to “Delta another minute in time”
Come now Steven, please try to train your eyes to go into autopilot and skip over the DL banter, yes?
What’s disturbing is that Tim Dunn allegedly works in a job where he trades in Delta stock and has inside sources that tell him information about Delta that is not in the public domain.
Some might regard this as insider trading.
I know you are desperate to eliminate a voice that might actually knows more about the airline industry than most people here but there have been multiple people that have written on the internet that a DL 787 order is in the works.
If the Wall Street Journal writes an article that an order is imminent, then you can take it to the bank.
Ben got it right with a question and the "sooner...
I know you are desperate to eliminate a voice that might actually knows more about the airline industry than most people here but there have been multiple people that have written on the internet that a DL 787 order is in the works.
If the Wall Street Journal writes an article that an order is imminent, then you can take it to the bank.
Ben got it right with a question and the "sooner or later" framing. If I am right, then a whole lot of people - including here who said there would never be a 787 order from DL - will be wrong. If DL does get it right, there will be a whole lot of people that will have to admit that I can put 2 plus 2 together better than they can.
There are credible people that are saying that DL will eventually order the 787 just as there are people that haven't hesitated to splash internal company memos and benefit from the information in them from AA and UA for years.
and I don't own Boeing or GE stock right now which are the two companies that would benefit from a DL order; DL is going to order widebody aircraft from either Airbus or Boeing. and I do own Airbus stock and I put it in writing on a financial advise site so the assertion of insider trading seems not just more than rich - it is factually inaccurate.
Fastest backpedal about your inside sources I’ve ever seen.
no one is packpedaling from anything.
I am saying that these rumors have been written for years. and there are people that are still saying a rumor is imminent. I can talk to people and those are still true.
No company has had to issue an SEC filed denial of anything I have had to say which most certainly did happen about Jon's repeated tweets that a B6-UA acquisition/merger was imminent.
To be clear,
“No company has had to issue an SEC filed denial of anything I have had to say”
This is the red line you consider when engaging in potential insider trading? Will delta have to put out a sec filing to deny my comments? Lol
You may want to reconsider that…
Your extreme backpedaling when called out on your “insider sources” is hilarious
an argument with someone that isn't even smart enough to register their username w/ a site in order to prevent fraudsters from using your name seems more than a little rich.
the red line is publishing internal information, real or made up. The fact that there are people that have said the same thing as I said and put it in writing means that I am not revealing anything that wasn't already publicly available.
Publishing...
an argument with someone that isn't even smart enough to register their username w/ a site in order to prevent fraudsters from using your name seems more than a little rich.
the red line is publishing internal information, real or made up. The fact that there are people that have said the same thing as I said and put it in writing means that I am not revealing anything that wasn't already publicly available.
Publishing internal documents from a company is insider information.
If this turns out to be true now or in a couple years, I was right which is precisely what you and a whole lot of people are desperately hoping will NOT happen.
and I did say that DL would be ordering the 35K and said so in published articles on a financial site before that happened and none of the SEC, Airbus or Rolls Royce of DL came knocking on my door.
“ an argument with someone that isn't even smart enough to register their username w/ a site in order to prevent fraudsters from using your name seems more than a little rich.”
Awww, yes. Tim uses my name fraudulently (using the exact same mocking gaslighting you always do under your own name) then simultaneously criticizes “unregistered users” mental capacity as stupid since it allows him to continue his own fraudulent usage.
Thanks tim, I won’t...
“ an argument with someone that isn't even smart enough to register their username w/ a site in order to prevent fraudsters from using your name seems more than a little rich.”
Awww, yes. Tim uses my name fraudulently (using the exact same mocking gaslighting you always do under your own name) then simultaneously criticizes “unregistered users” mental capacity as stupid since it allows him to continue his own fraudulent usage.
Thanks tim, I won’t be taking username advice from someone even Ben has specifically mentioned using fake names over and over during your ban. To say nothing of your past.
Backpedal, backpedal, backpedal ;)
spare us the performative rage.
Someone that would rather hide in the shadows and allow people to copy their user name because they aren't willing to register their email address and name with the site operator is in no position whatsoever to be giving any advise to anyone about security.
I have never posted on this or any other site using different user names at the same time. I have used multiple user names...
spare us the performative rage.
Someone that would rather hide in the shadows and allow people to copy their user name because they aren't willing to register their email address and name with the site operator is in no position whatsoever to be giving any advise to anyone about security.
I have never posted on this or any other site using different user names at the same time. I have used multiple user names over the course of the 25 or so years I have participated in social media.
If you or anyone thinks I have violated SEC regulations for insider trading, then file a complaint with them.
But don't forget to note that I said in published articles on a financial advise site that DL would be ordering the 35K before they announced it and no one came after me - because that information was also discussed on social media.
A charge of insider trading requires ACTING ON the information for financial benefit. The SEC has the capacity to investigate that whether it involves JonxNYC's statements about a B6/UA merger or not - and I doubt that he acted financially on that information even he made statements that were materially non-public and involved company strategies that are known to move stocks.
Whether you understand it or not, providing internal, company protected information FOR THE FIRST TIME is illegal. Discussing something that has already been made available to the public even by comments on social media is not insider information even if I or anyone else has sources.
Reading schedule files in advance of publication and then tweets that information- something someone regularly does in the industry and then that is the subject of stories - is not releasing or trading in illegal information.
Any statements made at a general company meeting - the source of many of the recent comments about DL's upcoming international schedules is not internal, protected information.
worry about securing your own access to the internet and learning the terms you throw around before you lecture anyone else
Ben posed the article in exactly the correct way - unverified rumor that may or may not be based on information that may or may not be true.
Somebody learned a new word today... "performative" -- Was this on your "word of the day" email?
If you or your kiddie table friends used the AI and search algorithms that you so detest for amplifying this story, you would find my previous uses of performative.
The word does have particular meaning today given the rage that is going on at the kiddie table where the subject has been discussed ad nauseum - and yet OMAAT, IIRC, has not ever addressed it.
some people can't stand that others get a word in...
If you or your kiddie table friends used the AI and search algorithms that you so detest for amplifying this story, you would find my previous uses of performative.
The word does have particular meaning today given the rage that is going on at the kiddie table where the subject has been discussed ad nauseum - and yet OMAAT, IIRC, has not ever addressed it.
some people can't stand that others get a word in on subjects where they think they are the experts.
Multiple sites have discussed a possible 787 order from DL. Unlike other people, I don't post non-public information even if I get it before anyone else.
and, above all, just let DL's mgmt and board do what they are going to do with the 787 just as AA will do with its expected widebody order and UA can figure out whether its massive 787 order is sufficient to remain competitive.
If DL orders the 787, then sooner or later will have been more correct than the "DL will never order the 787" crowd.
lol. I'm an airliners.net user?
You spend so much time over there yet get mad that you're banned from it.
Grow up
with a single first name user name, we have no idea who you are or if you are even a female, the gender most likely to use the name "julie"
why would I want to play on a site where people argue ad infinitum about discussions that other sites - including OMAAT - end within a couple days since Ben manages to crank out enough content to move content off the first page in a...
with a single first name user name, we have no idea who you are or if you are even a female, the gender most likely to use the name "julie"
why would I want to play on a site where people argue ad infinitum about discussions that other sites - including OMAAT - end within a couple days since Ben manages to crank out enough content to move content off the first page in a couple days?
It is an HONOR to not have to sit at the kiddie table and still be able to discuss important industry topics including this one.
because you are banned, Tim. That's why you're not allowed in the sandbox.
It's clearly not because you don't incessantly go to the site to read it. You clearly and POST about it here but you're banned there.
We have to consider that given Delta's financials and other aspects of their operations they seem to have a decent strategy as a business
Way to feed his narcissism, Ben.
Is this the same Tim Dunn (if that's his real name) who consistently implies that Delta is the world's only PERFECT airline? LOL!
DesertGhost, please be assured that Tim is just as much aware that DL is no more the perfect airline than BA is …. :-)
Thanks for the grin though ….
DL CEO Ed Bastian said years ago that he envisioned the 787 in the fleet at some point. This may be true but DL always holds their cards close to get the best price.
Rather strange to see Tim praising the 787 but I suppose hell can freeze over
you and others do so poorly at reading comprehension. I have accurately many times that the 787-10 is the lowest cost widebody but that the 787 trails the A350 in performance and capabilities and that is and will be true regardless of a DL 787 order or not.
The A321NEO handedly leads the MAX 10 in performance but DL ordered the MAX 10 anyway.
I think AA will order the 787-10 when Boeing does an IGW version making it more capable.
(More payload, more range) It will be a focus project as soon as the 777X gets certified in a few months.
There's also the likelihood of them returning back to the A359.
You never can tell with the folks at AA.
If we may step away from Tim/Julie for a moment and re-focus...I think the 787-10 makes quite a bit of sense for DL fleet planning. I think it would be a wise move politically as well to have a new Boeing order. From what I have gathered, and I know someone will correct me, the 787 is a generally more successful and reliable product than the MAX family.
And yes, Seattle more than needs a need sheet aircraft...sometime before I die from the old age I have earned. LOL
thank you for the refocus.
and, yes, the 787 is stable and output is planning to increase. The 787 was a well-designed aircraft; the problems were with manufacturing and those have apparently been resolved.
The MAX comes down to design issues that do not conform with current requirements for modern airliners.
It is highly doubtful that either Airbus or Boeing will release a new widebody before DL's entire 767 and most if not all...
thank you for the refocus.
and, yes, the 787 is stable and output is planning to increase. The 787 was a well-designed aircraft; the problems were with manufacturing and those have apparently been resolved.
The MAX comes down to design issues that do not conform with current requirements for modern airliners.
It is highly doubtful that either Airbus or Boeing will release a new widebody before DL's entire 767 and most if not all of its A330CEO fleet is retired.
If anything, Boeing needs to focus on a 737 replacement which might overlap with the small widebody category.
The B787-10 is incredibly efficient to the core.
There's actually no other aircraft to compare it with, efficiency wise.
The closest to the B787-10 is the A350-1000 (not even the much loved B787-9)
Qatar Airways recent order for 130, have 75 as the B787-10
Ba ordered 30 to replace their B777-200ER
Turkish Airlines is looking at adding it as part of their 'large Boeing order'
the reason for the 787-10s is that it is stretched about as far as the current 787 platform can be stretched - so you have the same wing that can fly 16 hours as the 789 carrying 40 or 50 more passengers but for 4 hours less on the 787-10.
The 787-10 weighs about 40,000 pounds less than the A350-1000 and you carry that weight around regardless of how short or long the flight is....
the reason for the 787-10s is that it is stretched about as far as the current 787 platform can be stretched - so you have the same wing that can fly 16 hours as the 789 carrying 40 or 50 more passengers but for 4 hours less on the 787-10.
The 787-10 weighs about 40,000 pounds less than the A350-1000 and you carry that weight around regardless of how short or long the flight is. The 35K is optimized to be a very long range aircraft while the 787-10 is best used as a high capacity, medium haul aircraft.
that is the nature of stretching an airframe, DL understands it well, and their decision - or not - will be driven by the 787-10s performance capabilities and whatever deal Boeing and GE offer - and repeatedly have offered before when DL ultimately chose the A350-1000.
Since we're on the topic of Delta.
Their incoming A350-100 LOPA has just been recently finalised.
In my previous comments, I noted it was highly unlikely for Delta to extend business class beyond doors L2/R2 (I only expected 44/46 seats)
They're having a mini Delta One cabin of 3 rows now.
Delta One will be 56 seats.
Delta premium 56 seats
Delta comfort 45 seats
Delta main 156 seats
...
Since we're on the topic of Delta.
Their incoming A350-100 LOPA has just been recently finalised.
In my previous comments, I noted it was highly unlikely for Delta to extend business class beyond doors L2/R2 (I only expected 44/46 seats)
They're having a mini Delta One cabin of 3 rows now.
Delta One will be 56 seats.
Delta premium 56 seats
Delta comfort 45 seats
Delta main 156 seats
Total seat count will be 313 seats.
All A350-900 will be retrofitted to the 275 seat version. So before 2030, all A350-900 will have less seat compared to the A330-900.
Retrofitted A330CEO might come in with a higher premium setup. Discussion is still very much preliminary.
any idea if there will be a new Delta One product? and if there's going to be an increase in legroom for Main/Comfort/PS?
@Eric Ji
No idea, I don't work for Delta (though I know a friend who was willing to share some information)
But I have seen several articles saying that a new product is planned, even some suggesting that the Safran Unity is high on the list.
Whatever product the A350-1000 ends up launching with will very likely go on to the A330CEO
...which, as I have been saying, will make the A350-1000 into an incredibly high performing aircraft.
...313 seats is well below average for the A350-1000; I think QF's Sunrise 35Ks are the only ones w/ less seats and they are designed to do 20 hour flights.
DL's should easily be able to do 18 hour flights given that DL is reportedly waiting for the 322 tonne version which QF will also have.
...which, as I have been saying, will make the A350-1000 into an incredibly high performing aircraft.
313 seats is well below average for the A350-1000; I think QF's Sunrise 35Ks are the only ones w/ less seats and they are designed to do 20 hour flights.
DL's should easily be able to do 18 hour flights given that DL is reportedly waiting for the 322 tonne version which QF will also have.
and, as much as some people think I hate JonxNYC, I don't at all mind his tweets; its publishing internal documents that I do not like to see.
Gary on another site published a tweet from Jon that said that DL is not only pushing the A350-1000s that are due in 2026 to 2027 but also increasing, IIRC, the number of 35Ks in 2027 or 28 -I think it was 2027 with 12 aircraft with the whole order of 20 due in about a 2 year period. DL's latest published data is for 4 35Ks per year which seems low. 12 is above the amount of widebody capacity DL has ever taken in one year.
If Jon is correct, then DL only has a few more years of confirmed widebody orders so a new order is certain. I do expect they will convert some if not all of the Airbus widebody options - which are flexible between the 330NEO and 350 families.
If they are planning to take 12 35Ks, they will have only the remaining 4 359s in that order - which suggests some of the options might be for additional 359s or 339s in 2026 before the 35Ks arrive.
Tim, doesn't JAL have just 239 seats on it's a350-1000's? Even if you take out the 6 first class seats on JAL, the difference between 239 and 313 is frankly sad. I really wish DL would focus on improving the hard product for all its cabin classes and offer more seat pitch in Main/Comfort/PS. Even if there are less seats, a better product means they'll fill more of those seats, even during low travel seasons.
yes, Eric, JL has a pretty low density configuration for their 35Ks just as they do on their 777Ws. In fact, their first class cabin takes up almost half of the space between doors 1 and 2 or where most airlines put about 20 business class suites; the business class cabin goes almost back to the 3rd doors with just a few rows of premium economy and 155 standard economy seats all behind the 3rd...
yes, Eric, JL has a pretty low density configuration for their 35Ks just as they do on their 777Ws. In fact, their first class cabin takes up almost half of the space between doors 1 and 2 or where most airlines put about 20 business class suites; the business class cabin goes almost back to the 3rd doors with just a few rows of premium economy and 155 standard economy seats all behind the 3rd doors.
DL's 275 seat 359s have only a few rows of standard economy in front of the 3rd set of doors but they will have a much larger premium economy cabin and also 5 rows of extra legroom economy - so their 35K might have standard economy all between doors 3 and 4.
AA's new 78Ps have just 2 rows of standard economy forward of the 3rd doors on the 789.
...the point being that more and more airlines are moving toward having just 1/3 of the floorspace for standard economy.
DL's business class cabin size will be 50 plus seats while DL has larger premium economy cabins as well as more extra legroom economy seats than AA and UA on many aircraft types and that trend seems to be continuing. the 35K is big enough to get over 300 total seats and still have...
...the point being that more and more airlines are moving toward having just 1/3 of the floorspace for standard economy.
DL's business class cabin size will be 50 plus seats while DL has larger premium economy cabins as well as more extra legroom economy seats than AA and UA on many aircraft types and that trend seems to be continuing. the 35K is big enough to get over 300 total seats and still have half of the seats as business, premium economy and extra legroom economy - which is what DL said several years ago the 35K would have
The shift to more premium seating does give the 35K incredible range - and that is where I believe DL will gain an advantage.
the 787-10 would be far less focused on range and would likely only be needed for TATL and S. America flights.
and for those that talk about using narrowbodies, to come up w/ these same percentages of seats on an A321 sized airframe, you are below 150 seats - and DL just doesn't believe the economics work for that few passengers on flights over 8 hours where 3 pilots are required. DL's transcon 321s will have less than 150 seats but are not going to be equipped to fly over water let alone for 9 hours.
@Tim
It still surprises me the direction they're going with the A350-1000.
Delta has been very much conservative with the number of business class on their widebodies, trying to limit the cabin to only between the first and second doors.
If truly they go with the 56-56-45-156
That will be miles ahead of BA who also have 56 business class and 56 premium economy, but with a much higher seat count
Julie/Tim (like Pat from SNL),
They could just do the 321 - no need for DL to ruin its stellar product with a Boeing aircraft. DL is a premium airline requiring premium aircraft manufacturer.
C’mon Ben, you know better than to give Tim/“Julie”/alts screen time…
Personally, I do think Delta will eventually order the A321LR/XLR. They will need a replacement for their current international 757 routes served with flat beds. Perhaps that can be done with their A321neo subleet though with flat beds, I haven't done the math personally on if those planes can serve all current 757 routes. But I would think that with such a large jump in capacity with their lowest capacity long-haul aircraft going from the...
Personally, I do think Delta will eventually order the A321LR/XLR. They will need a replacement for their current international 757 routes served with flat beds. Perhaps that can be done with their A321neo subleet though with flat beds, I haven't done the math personally on if those planes can serve all current 757 routes. But I would think that with such a large jump in capacity with their lowest capacity long-haul aircraft going from the 767-300 to the A330-900, an A321LR/XLR fleet would help the airline fill the gaps.
Mainly to open new secondary routes that are not economically viable with a widebody or to free up a widebody were you need the extra capacity in certain routes.
UA has done a great job with the thin 757 TATL routes. Did EWR-OPO last year and the nonstop was great. Just can’t support a widebody.
Look at what Iberia has done with the A321 XLR it replaced the A330 in both MAD-IAD and MAD-BOS routes. It added MAD to Fortaleza and Recife in Brazil not viable with an A330 and added a second flight SJU-MAD with the XLR and A332.
So they free up the A330's from BOS and IAD to be used in other routes and added the A321 XLR with the A330-200 to SJU because probably they could not fill two A330's in the fall.
As far as I’m aware, Delta has not flown the 75S on international routes in quite some time, they are limited to domestic D1 routes (i.e. LAX>BOS/DCA). The routes that previously were served by the 757 (i.e. JFK>KEF/ARN) have been upgauged to 767-300.
Delta does have 21 A321neo’s on order with the new D1 config vs. 16 75S’s so it will be interesting to see how these extra planes get used (adding frequency or new domestic D1 routes).
The irony is that for all the commenters insulting Tim Dunn and his analysis.
Ben still clearly found it interesting and plausible enough to even discuss in the first place.
I'm flattered you enjoy using my username, but this is not commentary from the normal "Julie"
But thanks for the compliment in trying to use it as your own.
Given Tim's known usage of fake names, it's likely just tim trying to compliment himself.
all you have to do to stop the frauds is register your name. The fact that you don't is what is more telling.
and "her" point remains that Ben published the article because any widebody order is worth discussing.
and, I am happy for you or anyone else to just let the future dictate whether I was accurate or not.
Tim Dunn lecturing others on fake names... what a joke and huge hypocrisy.
Tim, I'm flattered you use "julie" to try to compliment yourself. It only shows you for the loser you are. Not to mention how you monitor this comment section constantly to reply to people.
And to be blunt, we both know this topic was rampant on a.net long before you posted a comment yesterday. Let's not pretend you have inside...
Tim Dunn lecturing others on fake names... what a joke and huge hypocrisy.
Tim, I'm flattered you use "julie" to try to compliment yourself. It only shows you for the loser you are. Not to mention how you monitor this comment section constantly to reply to people.
And to be blunt, we both know this topic was rampant on a.net long before you posted a comment yesterday. Let's not pretend you have inside sources. You just read other commenters on airliners.net or "jetlanta" just texted you about it from a happy hour he had with Glen.
either way, you're no better than the JonNYC you despite with far fewer sources, if you even turn out to be right.
Honestly, I'm doing this all for attention because my parents never gave me any.
Does anyone sane really think someone is that bothered to waste their time impersonating me, a random loser online?
I use a system of accounts so that I can cycle in and out different usernames and then make fake registered accounts to like my own comments and signal boost them.
“Does anyone sane really think someone is that bothered to waste their time impersonating me, a random loser online?”
Since you are, yes. You clearly are a loser impersonating someone else. Thanks for proving your own point
—The real Julie
Why is it "logical enough that the airline may eventually want to diversify from the A330neo and A350" ? The same logic that Southwest may want to diversify with Airbus or Embraer?
A US airline simply cannot get by with an all Airbus widebody fleet no matter how good the A330NEO and A350 are and are more capable and efficient than the 787/777 combo that AA and UA have. and UA is very likely to eventually take delivery of the 777X or the A350.
DL is a large enough airline and is heading toward a widebody fleet of 200 aircraft so that multiple types and both...
A US airline simply cannot get by with an all Airbus widebody fleet no matter how good the A330NEO and A350 are and are more capable and efficient than the 787/777 combo that AA and UA have. and UA is very likely to eventually take delivery of the 777X or the A350.
DL is a large enough airline and is heading toward a widebody fleet of 200 aircraft so that multiple types and both manufacturers are justifiable.
and DL can justify two widebody manufacturers because they get the MRO rights for the engines which significantly reduces ownership costs; not only do they save money by doing their own engine overhauls in-house but they repair engines for other airlines to increase DL's efficiency for those same engines.
Engine overhauls is the highest margin part of the maintenance operation - and higher than passenger and cargo operations.
Some of you might have missed but DL won the overhaul business for the Pratt and Whitney engines on UPS' 757.
and WN's problem is that one fleet type can't serve every mission WN needs to operate; there is a good possibility they will order another type or perhaps two. They need a smaller aircraft than the 737-MAX 7 (even if Boeing ever gets around to delivering it) and could go into widebodies if it is serious about international operations.
as for the comments below, someone will be right and someone will be right as to whether this is "a thing"
I haven’t always agreed your posts Tim, but I can’t disagree with this analysis. Chill out with the hate on this post people.
Given the lead times from OEMs of like 7-8 years, if Delta orders a 787 variant, don’t expect to see it until 2034 at the earliest. Unless they’re buying from someone else, but who is selling newer dreamliners?
Airbus and Boeing produce enough aircraft that they have delivery positions available for major orders esp. since we are likely talking about a 3 timeline at the earliest for DL to start taking 787s.
and Airbus will do the same thing if UA decides to take its A350 order.
I just don’t see the big leasing companies giving away their slots. Nor do I have enough faith that either Airbus or Boeing can get back to pre-Covid production, especially if there ends up being a travel downturn in the next two years. Don’t think this is a Delta/United type issue - they’re stuck with poor OEM production.
Oh dear Ben, why would even write something based on Tim's post? That twat can't even start a sentence with a capital letter!
If DL were to order the 787 i'd put my copper pennies on the smaller 787-9 or even the 787-8. Why? DL probably just like Lufthansa will probably get these jets for 'free'. Given the huge number of the 767s DL flies why order the much bigger 787-10 instead of the smaller...
Oh dear Ben, why would even write something based on Tim's post? That twat can't even start a sentence with a capital letter!
If DL were to order the 787 i'd put my copper pennies on the smaller 787-9 or even the 787-8. Why? DL probably just like Lufthansa will probably get these jets for 'free'. Given the huge number of the 767s DL flies why order the much bigger 787-10 instead of the smaller 787-9 with even better range?
Seriously what is Tim drinking?! My Chardonnay tastes perfectly fine and i can still think.
What's with all the ad hominem attacks?
You're no better than him, if you lash out like that.
Clearly Ben thought this was worthy of making an article about.
@Julie,
I don't understand it either, Julie. It's so bizarre how this guy rents space freely in some minds. It's as if they can't exist without some sort of snipe at him daily.
again, "Julie", not the normal Julie poster. But thanks for the compliment in using my name. Ironically, at the same timeline when Tim was busy posting on this article.
No. Delta will never order the dreamliner. It has no need when the A330 and A350 work so very well for it.
What is wrong with having an all Airbus wide body fleet I miss the US 330’s - it’s just a better product the 350, 330 etc are just better
The main issue hindering the 787-10 its the MTOW despite being heavier than the -9 they have identical MTOW so that means you can't fill those fuel tanks to the max with 300+ pax so you don't go over the 560K MTOW.
I’m not saying it isn’t possible because if the price is right, it certainly is. But there’s more to Delta ordering the A350 than many people realize as Airbus and Rolls made them an exclusive engine partner and invested in heavy machinery to do so. I don’t imagine that was done for Delta to maintain an equally split Airbus/Boeing lang haul fleet..
https://deltatechops.com/services/engine-maintenance/trent-xwb-engine/
Since we are in fantasy land, I wonder why Delta does not order the A330-800Ns to replace those Boeing 767s. I am sure Airbus can offer them a big discount if they want to go that direction. It will make sense since they have already gotten a large order of A330-900Ns. Those 338s can make good replacements for their A330-200s/Boeing 767s.
"shrink" versions of aircraft models always have worse per passenger economics than longer versions which is why the 330-800 has not sold to virtually anyone and why the 787-8 is just a smaller and less capable version of the 787-9 with much higher operating costs. It is why the 767-400 and A330-300 are so much better economically than the 763 and 332 even though the 764 gave up alot operationally and the 333 doesn't have...
"shrink" versions of aircraft models always have worse per passenger economics than longer versions which is why the 330-800 has not sold to virtually anyone and why the 787-8 is just a smaller and less capable version of the 787-9 with much higher operating costs. It is why the 767-400 and A330-300 are so much better economically than the 763 and 332 even though the 764 gave up alot operationally and the 333 doesn't have the range the 332 does.
As to comments below, DL appears to have no interest in using any existing narrowbody on flights over 8 hours and they have repeatedly said the economics do not work at US labor costs to carry 170 passengers or fewer with 3 pilots. Narrowbodies have virtually no cargo capability.
There is no mid-size replacement for the 767 which is part of why DL and UA are not getting rid of those types any sooner than they have to; DL recognizes that there are far better economics available on newer and larger aircraft and is retiring 767s while UA is not - so far - but will have to.
and, for the record, I do think that UA will have to activate its order for the A350 or buy the 777X. The A350-1000 is simply too capable of an aircraft for UA to allow DL to use w/o having an alternative.
The 777-9 will be larger than UA probably needs but won't have the range of the 35K but the 777-8 could do the trick but UA will have to wait just like everyone else for it. the 777X has the advantage of not adding another type even if it might beat the 35K in per passenger economics.
as for cabin width, that depends on the cabin you are in. The 767 was not designed for the current generation of business class seats but it offers a wider economy seat - where most people fly - than the 10 abreast 777 or the 9 abreast 787 that AA and UA use. The 777X should provide a wider seat.
DL will have to consider seat size but the 787 has become so common that there are likely few people esp. in economy that make their purchase decision based on seat size.
Tim Dunn’s sources = the people sitting in the desks across from him at Delta. Somehow this will be spun with respect to how amazing Delta’s decision is how having such a schizophrenic hard product due to having an unharmonized fleet is amazing while UA’s Polaris product sucks.
Real news isn’t that Tim Dunn thinks he’s right, it would be that Tim Dunn thinks something Delta has done is bad.
Close - just remember he was fired by them though
do you two think that:
1. You can focus on the topic at hand? You do more to elevate my position by talking ABOUT me, something others with a whole lot more emotional intelligence than you note.
2. Get your stories straight if you want to denigrate me. One says I get information from coworkers at Delta and the other says I was fired. The latter is particularly rich since it flies in the face...
do you two think that:
1. You can focus on the topic at hand? You do more to elevate my position by talking ABOUT me, something others with a whole lot more emotional intelligence than you note.
2. Get your stories straight if you want to denigrate me. One says I get information from coworkers at Delta and the other says I was fired. The latter is particularly rich since it flies in the face of the fact that I am labeled as DL's greatest online supporter.
3. and recognize and admit reality - which is that DL and UA have comparably complex fleets. United just happens not to fly Airbus widebodies but has them on order. Polaris is a better product than Delta One on the DL 767 but there are way too many people that can't admit Polaris was not close to best in class the day DL put the Delta One Suites into service. And Polaris crams more seats into the same space as other non-suite business class products including AA and DL's non-suite products on the 787, 777 and 330CEO.
I will take the flip side. Delta does a lot of flying internationally to partner hubs where people connect. As the A321XLR gets deployed competitors to Europe may be offering nonstop to many secondary markets and the connection model may suffer. If anything they need a wide body that matches the 767 capacity. But what do I know?
I hope not; the 787 is nowhere as comfortable as the A350, it's narrow and exhudes cheapness. n
Not a premium choice.
Many people have issues with the 787 electric shades because of the crew blocking it with their master control.
It wouldn't surprise me to see future airplanes not have any windows at all. It saves weight and nobody looks out anymore anyway.
If Delta is going to make a Boeing Widebody order before NMA is launched it would be the 787-8 not 787-10. They already have A359 which cost a bit less and can do everything the 787-10 does and has much better payload-range. They already got the airplane and pilots and sims and maintenance setup for it. The bit of extra casm (due to an extra row) over a select few routes vs A359 does not...
If Delta is going to make a Boeing Widebody order before NMA is launched it would be the 787-8 not 787-10. They already have A359 which cost a bit less and can do everything the 787-10 does and has much better payload-range. They already got the airplane and pilots and sims and maintenance setup for it. The bit of extra casm (due to an extra row) over a select few routes vs A359 does not worth it to have a new type.
The 787-8 got a new order with AA so new orders can be made.
Hope this doesn’t happen. Only recently I realized how miserable 787 (and 777) economy class seats are compared to 350. Aisle felt much narrower in 787 but that could be because people’s shoulder extruding to the aisle. I’m trying to avoid 787 these days unless bulkhead is affordable (AC) or legroom is nice (KE) or I can grab one of those 2-seat setups at the very back of the plane. Online or offline, I hear...
Hope this doesn’t happen. Only recently I realized how miserable 787 (and 777) economy class seats are compared to 350. Aisle felt much narrower in 787 but that could be because people’s shoulder extruding to the aisle. I’m trying to avoid 787 these days unless bulkhead is affordable (AC) or legroom is nice (KE) or I can grab one of those 2-seat setups at the very back of the plane. Online or offline, I hear many people praising DL for its spacious seats. DL being a premium airline, hope it keeps its edge on economy class by offering a guaranteed wide seat.
Yeah the 787 narrower cabin mean the economy seats are usually 17.1" of width vs the A350 18".
There are a lot of airlines that put narrowish seats (often unified width-wise with 787) into 350. Very few airlines, like CX or ET have true 18" seatwidth in their 350s.
There might be a few airlines doing that but not a lot. At least those 350s will have a wider aisle meaning less bumping to shoulder, less shouting by FA when passing by with a cart, overall much better experience / spacious feeling.
I envision JonNYC is employed in some capacity that he is sitting in on high level airline meetings, reading for y9ur eyes only memos, and having contact with high level employees. He is like a corporate spy operating to delivery the audience rumors and leaks.
I don't know what Tim Dunn does with his time. I think knowing more about the man or how he gets his Delta data would help his cause.
Perhaps a...
I envision JonNYC is employed in some capacity that he is sitting in on high level airline meetings, reading for y9ur eyes only memos, and having contact with high level employees. He is like a corporate spy operating to delivery the audience rumors and leaks.
I don't know what Tim Dunn does with his time. I think knowing more about the man or how he gets his Delta data would help his cause.
Perhaps a regular series where you highlight one of your readers would be interesting.
it's rather simple and like Ben.
I have followed the airline industry for over 50 years - since my teens - and have timetables and annual reports - airlines actually used to publish both.
when you're passionate about something, you pay attention and talk to other people who are passionate.
And Jon's greatest source of data is information leaked from employees. even AA is getting tired of having their memos spread around the internet and...
it's rather simple and like Ben.
I have followed the airline industry for over 50 years - since my teens - and have timetables and annual reports - airlines actually used to publish both.
when you're passionate about something, you pay attention and talk to other people who are passionate.
And Jon's greatest source of data is information leaked from employees. even AA is getting tired of having their memos spread around the internet and is cracking down on employees that forward them.
you're a 70 year old loser shilling for Delta? how sad.
JonNYC has info for all airlines though, so he has high level sources at each.
Let’s not give your site’s resident gasbag any more airtime Lucky. Someone like JonNYC actually has sources and gets scoops and delivers. TD, not so much.
a tad jealous on a Sunday morning?
and yet it was I, not Jon, or anyone else that broke the huge market share shift news in NYC from UA to DL. Jon can get all of the stolen AA memos until his heart is content - and that has fallen dramatically. Others understand the heart beat of the industry far better.
and UA will convert more of its 787 orders to -10s with subsequent orders...
a tad jealous on a Sunday morning?
and yet it was I, not Jon, or anyone else that broke the huge market share shift news in NYC from UA to DL. Jon can get all of the stolen AA memos until his heart is content - and that has fallen dramatically. Others understand the heart beat of the industry far better.
and UA will convert more of its 787 orders to -10s with subsequent orders for AA, DL and UA all being higher gross weight and more capable versions.
I don't think AA or DL will use the 787-10 over the Pacific but a little more range will make UA happy.
Why the F could I be jealous? UA is the perfect airline for my needs. Will hit 2MM in a few months. PlusPoints far superior to the horrible DL upgrade scheme. I could give a flying F about DL gaining a few very temporary NYC market share points.
Face it - you are a total wanker who has some bizarre need to rush to the defense of DL EVERY single time. Injecting DL in...
Why the F could I be jealous? UA is the perfect airline for my needs. Will hit 2MM in a few months. PlusPoints far superior to the horrible DL upgrade scheme. I could give a flying F about DL gaining a few very temporary NYC market share points.
Face it - you are a total wanker who has some bizarre need to rush to the defense of DL EVERY single time. Injecting DL in posts totally unrelated to it. You lack any objectivity whatsoever.
No wonder other sites have banned you. And DL fired you - that’s the most amazing part of all. Talk about weird Stockholm Syndrome there.
And - the PANYNJ data is a monthly updated dashboard of public NYC airline data. You didn’t “break any news”. Holy S you are beyond delusional thinking you have any importance.
and yet I WAS the one that made it clear as soon it did became public - because I knew what the data was pointing to long before it became public.
You are free to have your own preferences for companies you support... but that is not the point.
The point is about data and facts in the industry and I get those right.
Instead of making this about me or trying to throw...
and yet I WAS the one that made it clear as soon it did became public - because I knew what the data was pointing to long before it became public.
You are free to have your own preferences for companies you support... but that is not the point.
The point is about data and facts in the industry and I get those right.
Instead of making this about me or trying to throw someone into the topic that didn't mention this, how about you just sit tight and see if what posted becomes true - a DL 787 order "sooner or later" with my belief that it will be announced within the next year.
But remember that it took multiple years for DL to decide on the A350-1000 and I said over and over that an order "was close"
I don't control what any boardroom does but I pick up the scuttlebutt - but not stolen memos from multiple airlines
Congrats TD!!! Only You and you alone could do deep trend analysis and predict UA was going to lose some NYC market share due to their most important hub being down a runway all May and having flights cut.
And only you and you alone could breathtakingly refresh the PANYNJ site waiting for the magical hour in June that the May data was posted. And only you could “break the news” across this and every single travel website.
Beyond delusional.
there is nothing delusional about noting a 7 point market share shift in the largest market.
The only one that is delusional is anyone that wants to pretend it isn't happening and the implications of it.
there are people that breathlessly track share shifts in LAX even though that is a far smaller operation for all carriers than DL and UA in NYC.
And it isn't late-breaking news that UA has lost share. Some...
there is nothing delusional about noting a 7 point market share shift in the largest market.
The only one that is delusional is anyone that wants to pretend it isn't happening and the implications of it.
there are people that breathlessly track share shifts in LAX even though that is a far smaller operation for all carriers than DL and UA in NYC.
And it isn't late-breaking news that UA has lost share. Some of us have been watching NYC share and ATC delays for years and knew that the day would come when the FAA had no choice but to impose restrictions on EWR flights in order to get on-time and reliability back to even comparable levels.
UA pushed its EWR schedule beyond EWR's ability to ever handle as much traffic as UA pushed through it which was the cause of UA's 2023 EWR meltdown that spread across its system.
It was Scott Kirby's attempts to blame the FAA and DOT for UA's overscheduling instead of accepting that the FAA had its part to do with getting ATC working reliably - which wasn't happening - and UA needed to cut capacity below what UA had scheduled. It took the FAA and DOT's hand to push EWR cuts for all carriers well below what UA wanted.
It is unlikely the FAA and DOT will ever allow EWR to return to pre-runway construction levels so the share shift is not likely to swing back to UA.
given that DL is now carrying 2X as much domestic traffic as UA is from NYC, this reality has enormous implications for the market and for the ability to support international service.
and ultimately the aircraft that DL and UA use depends on its hubs and the routes it flies or can fly.
@UA-NYC - You do sound jealous that Tim Dunn is once helpful.
What?! Now even Ben is listening to that fraud Tim Dunn. He just spread this rumor to exert the superiority of DL over UA & AA once again by saying that DL is increasing widebody capacity.
From a consumer standpoint, it might be argued that Delta's greatest weakness is the 767. For me, while others might disagree, I will always opt for AA FF over Delta One for transcon.
thanks, Ben.
The reason why AA, DL and UA are less likely to have multiple widebody types is because they have multiple hubs that use widebodies and it is very costly to have that multiple widebody types at multiple hubs esp. from a crew staffing standpoint, including reserves.
We are in the window when DL has to act if it wants 787s in the late 2020s - which also coincides with pulling the 767-300ERs...
thanks, Ben.
The reason why AA, DL and UA are less likely to have multiple widebody types is because they have multiple hubs that use widebodies and it is very costly to have that multiple widebody types at multiple hubs esp. from a crew staffing standpoint, including reserves.
We are in the window when DL has to act if it wants 787s in the late 2020s - which also coincides with pulling the 767-300ERs from international service - although they are expected to remain in limited domestic service for a couple years after that.
People love to talk about how many orders UA has but fail to point out what each airline is actually getting delivered.
DL has led the US airlines in the number of widebodies delivered for 2024 and will do so in 2025.
and I do think that AA will order the 787-10 as well.
I agree, AA will more than likely order the 787-10 as a 77E replacement. The costs of once again overhauling the 77Es and extending their service life are likely significant, and for frames that are 1999-2002 builds, at 47 units it may be worth just replacing them.
I don't see DL ordering a Boeing wide body unless the senseless trade war that the administration is pursuing makes acquiring Airbus jets so prohibitive. By then,...
I agree, AA will more than likely order the 787-10 as a 77E replacement. The costs of once again overhauling the 77Es and extending their service life are likely significant, and for frames that are 1999-2002 builds, at 47 units it may be worth just replacing them.
I don't see DL ordering a Boeing wide body unless the senseless trade war that the administration is pursuing makes acquiring Airbus jets so prohibitive. By then, there won't be much left of US economic growth anyway, which will be marked by stubborn stagflation and little to no corporate traffic or premium demand. Delta will likely replace the 767-300/400 fleet with A330-900s.