This isn’t good… air traffic controllers cleared two Southwest jets to use the same runway at the same time. This caused a close call, including a high speed rejected takeoff.
In this post:
Southwest 737 incident at San Diego Airport
This incident happened on Friday, October 11, 2024, at San Diego International Airport (SAN). It involves the following two flights:
- Southwest 1478 was getting ready to depart for Dallas (DAL), and was operated by a seven-year-old Boeing 737-800 with the registration code N8551Q
- Southwest 785 was getting ready to depart for Phoenix (PHX), and was operated by an 18-year-old Boeing 737-700 with the registration code N262WN
This situation happened due to a lapse in communication between the ground controller and tower controller at the airport. VASAviation has an excellent video with both the air traffic control audio and a depiction of where the jets were located during the incident.
Here’s the key part of the communication, and keep in mind that tower and ground controllers are on different frequencies (though the transmissions are in chronological order):
San Diego Tower: “Southwest 1478, Lindberg Tower, runway 27, line up and wait.”
Southwest 1478: “Runway 27, line up and wait, Southwest 1478.”
San Diego Ground: “Southwest 785, cross runway 27 at B6, continue taxiing via C.”
Southwest 785: “Alright, cleared to cross 27 at B6, continue taxiing via C, Southwest 785.”
San Diego Tower: “Southwest 1478, traffic on the upwind is diverging course, runway 27, cleared for takeoff.”
Southwest 1478: “Runway 27, cleared for takeoff, Southwest 1478.”
The issue here is that the tower controller gave a plane clearance for takeoff literally one second after another plane had been given clearance to cross that same runway.
Once the controller figures out what’s going on, here’s how the communication goes:
San Diego Tower: “Southwest 1478, cancel takeoff clearance.”
San Diego Ground: “Southwest 785, hold position.”
Southwest 785: “Hold position, Southwest 785, we’re past the hold short line.”
San Diego Ground: “Roger, just hold position please.”
San Diego Tower: “Southwest 1478, did you copy?”
Southwest 1478: “Say again.”
San Diego Tower: “Cancel takeoff clearance for Southwest 1478.”
Southwest 1478: “Southwest 1478 rejecting.”
The Southwest 737 trying to take off had accelerated to around 100 knots, prior to rejecting its takeoff. It ended up exiting the runway at the same intersection where the other 737 was trying to cross.
Southwest 785 ended up departing a short while later, while Southwest 1478 had to return to the gate, and then departed around three hours behind schedule (since a high speed rejected takeoff can require an aircraft inspection, etc.).
This situation was a complete mess
It’s sad how common runway incursions have become in the United States, especially since these situations seem so avoidable. A couple of things stand out about this incident.
First of all, it just seems like common sense that the tower controller should be responsible for all movements across a runway, even if it’s an aircraft taxiing. It makes no sense that two different parties on two different frequencies are giving instructions for use of the same runway. In many other countries, that’s how it works, and it should work that way in the United States as well, in my opinion.
Second of all, the way that the tower controller dealt with the situation leaves a lot to be desired. She nonchalantly told the Southwest jet to “cancel takeoff clearance,” but the pilots clearly didn’t hear those instructions. She waited for several seconds, and then in response to that, the pilots of the jet taking off said “say again?” Her lack of urgency in how she communicated, plus not emphasizing the gravity of the situation, really isn’t great.
It’s also interesting (but not surprising) how the controllers try to completely sweep this situation under the rug. There’s no real apology to the pilots, but they just move on. I understand you want to save the frequency for important communication, but at least acknowledging what happened seems like it would’ve been appropriate.
On the plus side, given Southwest’s recent issues, at least it wasn’t the carrier’s pilots at fault, for once?
Bottom line
Two Southwest Boeing 737s had a close call in San Diego, as the planes were cleared to use the same runway at the same time. The ground controller cleared one aircraft to cross the runway at the same time that a tower controller cleared another aircraft to depart from the same runway.
The problem here isn’t just the initial problem, but how the situation was handled, as the pilots of the plane taking off seemingly didn’t even initially know that their clearance had been canceled.
What do you make of this Southwest 737 runway situation?
SAN wasn't named one of the world's most dangerous airports for no reason. This airport is a ticking time clock... And yes, I get some people are saying Lucky is overhyping the issue, but there is definitely a problem with ATC in the US. Just because nobody got hurt, doesn't mean there isn't an underlying issue. Im sad to say, it's just a matter of time before disaster strikes. Sometimes, all it takes is a...
SAN wasn't named one of the world's most dangerous airports for no reason. This airport is a ticking time clock... And yes, I get some people are saying Lucky is overhyping the issue, but there is definitely a problem with ATC in the US. Just because nobody got hurt, doesn't mean there isn't an underlying issue. Im sad to say, it's just a matter of time before disaster strikes. Sometimes, all it takes is a few seconds between life and death. That is in a plane, in the car, walking down the street, etc.
Have you considered there might always be an underlying issue (humans make mistakes), but with youtube and people monitoring 24/7 seeking this stuff out, the issue is aggrandized?
It seems that some Air Traffic personnel do not always communicate well, doesn't it? Let's face it, some of them make mistakes now and then, for whatever reason. Thank goodness there is usually another set of ears and eyes fiarly close by. Sometimes pillots make mistakes, as well. With as much trafficc as there isw being handled, everyone needs to be 101% alert at all times.
The problem is, that the more air traffic increase, the less room there is for error.
You really just need to stop posting articles about ATC.
There is no "close call", since there was only ever one aircraft encroaching on the runway (hold short bars are offset from the runway edge lines).
There is no "sweeping this under the rug" just because controllers wanted to focus on their duties instead of going out of their way to apoligize.--- that's just pure rage baiting now.
The way to show they were sweeping...
You really just need to stop posting articles about ATC.
There is no "close call", since there was only ever one aircraft encroaching on the runway (hold short bars are offset from the runway edge lines).
There is no "sweeping this under the rug" just because controllers wanted to focus on their duties instead of going out of their way to apoligize.--- that's just pure rage baiting now.
The way to show they were sweeping it under the rug is if an MOR was not filed. Maybe get that information before making outrageous claims like that.
And the way other countries do things is irrelevant, because the United States is the busiest and most complex airspace of them all.
We do things for a reason, and we get them done well.
Notice for your 80 something posts critiquing controllers, not one actual collision involved.
Meanwhile, we're still understaffed, overworked, and underpaid. We're exhausted and demoralized, and posts like these exasperate it.
Maybe you should write more about how we need and deserve better pay, especially in light of many other unions in and out of the aviation industry securing massive raises for their members (you know, since they actually have the adult privilege of striking and have to be taken seriously because of it).
Your articles about ATC- and the people ignorantly commenting on them- are exhausting and demoralizing. You are generally fair with your postings, but when it comes to ATC, you're following the biased and uninformed masses. It irks the hell out of me.
Of course you're ATC related. I understand your sentiments a bit, but 1) if you're ATC, then related insights rather than vitriol would have been impressive, 2) without you and the ATC trying to educate the flying public better about these situations, then you leave the door wide open for these type of blog posts ... you just fed the "biased and uninformed masses" ... and then exacerbated it by instead focusing on pay and...
Of course you're ATC related. I understand your sentiments a bit, but 1) if you're ATC, then related insights rather than vitriol would have been impressive, 2) without you and the ATC trying to educate the flying public better about these situations, then you leave the door wide open for these type of blog posts ... you just fed the "biased and uninformed masses" ... and then exacerbated it by instead focusing on pay and union rights (which I generally agree with) ... so how about you, "Unnamed", get it together.
Mr./Ms. ATC you are wrong. That was a close call. One aircraft was taking off while the other aircraft was already past the hold short bars as confirmed by the pilot communication. Just another ATC error in the USA...
If YOU are "exhausted and demoralized" then YOU might want to consider finding a new career.
You are part of an obsolete system. You will be redundant very soon.
With your attitude, you shouldn't be ATC, you'd be a better fit as an authoritarian flight crew making up your own bogus FAA rules.
Or TSA?
Thank you for your service, time to retire.
"Notice for your 80 something posts critiquing controllers, not one actual collision involved."
Very unpersuasive, it's only a matter of time before there is a collision.
My son was on that flight. So take your outrage elsewhere. Find a new job if this one is too tough for you. PEOPLE were screaming and in fear for their lives as the jet was screaming down the runway one second and then screeching tires the next. Passengers around him were BRACED for a collision that they didn't know from which side it would come.
Pilot here, and agree wholeheartedly with your post. This blog is usually pretty evenhanded, but when it comes to ATC there’s a lot of sensationalism and finger wagging.
To the person whose family member was on the plane, this may sound callous, but RTOs happen all the time and for many reasons: ATC, mechanicals, birds, another aircraft doing something stupid… I’m sure it wasn’t fun for folks in the back, but slamming on the...
Pilot here, and agree wholeheartedly with your post. This blog is usually pretty evenhanded, but when it comes to ATC there’s a lot of sensationalism and finger wagging.
To the person whose family member was on the plane, this may sound callous, but RTOs happen all the time and for many reasons: ATC, mechanicals, birds, another aircraft doing something stupid… I’m sure it wasn’t fun for folks in the back, but slamming on the brakes in your car will be ~5x more abrupt than a 737 RTO. Your family member was safe, and that’s what matters.
Thanks joeblonik. A bunch of members of the clueless flying public (ok, LAXLonghorn wasn't so bad) vs two of us actually in the biz.
To the chap complaining about their kid, your frustration reminds me of this pathetic article about how terrifying their go-around was:
https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/article/aborted-plan-landing-sfo-san-francisco-airport-18139993.php
As joe adequately pointed out, these things happen frequently. Your child isn't special (in this regard).
I should also point out your strawman about the job being too tough...
Thanks joeblonik. A bunch of members of the clueless flying public (ok, LAXLonghorn wasn't so bad) vs two of us actually in the biz.
To the chap complaining about their kid, your frustration reminds me of this pathetic article about how terrifying their go-around was:
https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/article/aborted-plan-landing-sfo-san-francisco-airport-18139993.php
As joe adequately pointed out, these things happen frequently. Your child isn't special (in this regard).
I should also point out your strawman about the job being too tough for me. Didn't say that at all. But if you think we controllers should quit en-masse because we are understaffed and overworked (most of us are working 6 days a week up to 10 hours a day in a mentally demanding job, wheras previous generations of ATC worked 8 hours 5 days a week) you are going to be left without ATC... or worse, those conditions will continue to exasperate ATC errors until a collision does occur. A smarter person would be next to us advocating for improvements instead of telling us we need to quit if we don't like it.
Meanwhile Eskimo doesn't understand how the government works. Or, maybe he just doesn't understand the meaning of the word "soon". Furthering proof of his aviation cluelessness his is critique of me being "authoritarian".... didn't know I came off that way in my comment, but seems rather counterintuitive to be upset about authoritarian ATCSs... the job is literally to be authoritarian.
As soon as "Kamala Biden" agrees to pay out the portion of my pension already earned (~$750K), sure, I'll be happy to leave, and so will many other controllers, leaving poor SOBs like them with a new generation of inexperienced kids playing with their lives. If that's what you want, I guess? Another weird sentiment, if you ask me.
The conundrum of being an underpaid ATCS... the pension is a set of golden handcuffs. Leaving this job isn't the same as leaving most jobs. Not to mention that ATC doesn't easily translate to other careers.
@LAX: I'd hardly describe my comment as vitriolic. But time and again Ben posts these things and among all that, I haven't seen a dedicated post for the issues we ATCS are facing (to his credit, he does occasionally mention our overworked and understaffed issues... but only as a sidebar in other posts). My comment here was a bit of vent.... that I can admit.
What insight do you want? You have 6 or 7 or more sets of eyes on the situation. 2 pilots, 2 copilots, 2 controllers, probably an ATC operations supervisor. 7 people did not miss the issue, and either the plane on the runway could've continued their departure without collision OR the plane crossing could have finished crossing without collision. If either of those things had happened, calling this a close call would have more standing.
To your second point, I can only say so much, educate so much. No matter what I say on this matter, for instance, the public masses will group together and revel in their echoes of how this was a "close call". My educating them isn't strong enough to break that.
In addition, some things about ATC you just can't understand until you are ATC.
@NFSF: I mean, for as long as ATC has existed, you could say "it's only a matter of time"... hell, it's literally happened before. There is one... mayyyybee two changes in the last few years that are inspiring you to speak up. 1: prevalence of social media/youtubers wanting to monetize public outrage and fear mongering. 2.... maybeeee Covid. Fellow controllers at other facilities have said that covid destroyed training for the last several years, and that could lead to new controllers who are less experienced with busier/normal traffic.
OK... My insanely long drunken rant is over (it's my day off).
As Forrest would say... that's all I've got to say about that.
Hi Ben, love these posts. I'm working towards my PPL currently and the number one thing that stands out to me about the whole experience is how seemingly nonchalant everyone is over radio. Seriously mumbled instructions, lack of urgency or attempts to be clear, half mumbled responses etc. I'm really quite shocked by it all. I get that it's just par for the course when these guys are doing it day in day out but...
Hi Ben, love these posts. I'm working towards my PPL currently and the number one thing that stands out to me about the whole experience is how seemingly nonchalant everyone is over radio. Seriously mumbled instructions, lack of urgency or attempts to be clear, half mumbled responses etc. I'm really quite shocked by it all. I get that it's just par for the course when these guys are doing it day in day out but until the robots take over it wouldn't hurt the humans to make an effort to be a bit more clear in their comms. Keen to hear if others who are literally on the lines feel the same.
I should have added: the one that brings this home to me is AC759 at SFO in July 2017. Nearly the worst aviation disaster ever. The pilots of 4? 5? taxied planes saw the AC jet headed right towards them and the only thing anyone ever said over radio was one pilot mumbling to the tower "He's on the taxiway." Never: "AC, you're about to hit us!" or anything like that. AC missed hitting the first aircraft by 14 FEET.
At least the woman running the tower in the first 1/2 of the video speaks slowly and clearly. The guy at the end spitting out words like a machine-gun confused even the experienced pilots!
San Diego needs a bigger airport. The frequency of close calls is out of control.
a bigger and more complex airfield system will not make it easier to avoid issues
A collision anywhere would be awful but it would be especially horrible in SAN given the history
Scary.
You mention it happened on Monday, October 11, 2024. October 11 was a Friday. So was it Friday, October 11 or Monday, October 14?
@ Jason -- Whoops, it was the 11th, so that would be Friday. Fixing it now, thanks!