In recent years, we’ve seen airline pilots in the United States (particularly at the “big three” carriers, as well as at regional carriers) get huge pay increases, and they’re now very well compensated. As you’d expect, not everyone realizes that, though, and sometimes it’s funny to see the reactions that people have to this reality.
In this post:
American captain shares $458K+ compensation on Reddit
A Miami-based American Airlines Boeing 737 captain posted in the r/Salary subreddit, where… people seemingly just share their salaries with little context (the internet is a fascinating place, eh?). The pilot’s total year to date compensation has been $457,894.51, and the hourly pay is $360+ (this only applies to flight hours).
I’ve written in the past about how much airline pilots earn, and how their pay is structured. Generally speaking, pilots can fly up to 1,000 hours per year, so you can multiply their hourly pay by around 1,000, and then it only goes up from there, after adding in things like per diem pay, etc.
This pilot isn’t even maxed out in terms of earning potential. The pilot is at the top of the Boeing 737 captain pay scale (which currently maxes out at around $361 per hour). However:
- American pilots continue to get pay increases through 2027, under their current contract
- This pilot can get even higher pay if they move up to larger aircraft; for example, under the current pay scale, a Boeing 777 captain could earn up to $447 per hour, so that’s roughly 24% higher than the Boeing 737 captain pay
So a wide body captain can easily clear $500K per year. American, Delta, and United, all have virtually identical hourly pay, though they also have profit sharing. Since Delta is by far the most profitable, you can expect that Delta pilots are paid even better, and some very senior Delta captains are probably earning close to $600K, including profit sharing.
As you’d expect, the internet has quite some takes on this
I wasn’t surprised by these numbers, since I was familiar with pilot pay scales. However, understandably a lot of people weren’t expecting this. I think a lot of people have respect for pilots, but wouldn’t assume they’re that well compensated. The responses generally fall into one of two camps:
- “What on earth, they earn in a month what I earn into a year, how can they be paid that much?”
- “They have a lot of responsibility and it takes a lot of time before you get to these pay amounts, so they deserve it”
My opinion is somewhere in the middle. I respect pilots a lot, and ultimately their high pay is due to their very strong unions, plus our 1,500-hour rule for pilots, which greatly limits the pilot pipeline, and gives them a strong negotiating point.
I’m not a huge fan of trying to compare pay between people and assessing who “deserves” what, because all too often it’s not fair. Like, how much should a surgeon make, how much should a pilot make, and how much should a teacher make?
I will say this — I know a lot of management employees at airlines are rather frustrated about the massive pay raises that pilots have received, while they haven’t. At many airlines, your average captain is earning more than your average mid-level executive who is making some major decisions for the airline.
It’s also important to acknowledge that coming out of the pandemic was possibly the best time in history to be a pilot. Airlines were hiring like crazy, airline pilot pay increased massively, and the pathway from first officer to captain was also faster than ever before, due to the number of retirements.
Pilots have to invest quite a bit of time and money into their flight training (if they don’t go the military route, which requires time, but not money), both to get specific licenses and sufficient hours. Then they have to typically work at a regional airline for some amount of time, to build up hours. And then they can get a job at their “forever” airline, and work their way up the ranks there.
There’s no denying that the entire pathway has just been much faster than before in recent years. For example, you have pilots now who maybe spent a year or two at a regional airline, then a job at the legacy, and were then able to bid on a captain position within a year or two (though with limited seniority, and therefore, limited control over their schedule).
Also keep in mind that historically, airlines haven’t really been stable businesses. Pilots get these great contracts, but then in bankruptcy, everything is renegotiated. Of course we now have airline executives who claim their airlines will never be in bankruptcy again, their airlines will never lose money again, etc. I have a different take, but…
Bottom line
An American Airlines pilot shared their total compensation for the year on Reddit, which was around $458K. Unsurprisingly, many people don’t realize how well compensated pilots are nowadays, and this person isn’t even at the top of the pay scale yet.
This kind of pay tends to draw mixed reactions. One thing is for sure — it shows the strength of the pilot unions in the United States, that these kinds of contracts can be negotiated. It also shows the strength of the credit card market in the United States, that these contracts can be paid for. 😉
What do you make of this pilot compensation, and the internet’s response?
No one cares. Stop promoting Americans and their goddamn privileged, entitled, main character syndrome.
I spent eight years flying jets and not getting killed in the service of OUR country. I suppose at some point I believe I've earned my position.
Oh...I had to wait sixteen years after that to become a Captain.
Reminder: Nobody starts out at that pay rate.
They deserve every penny; they have huge responsibilities, and have spent time/money to become pilots. Corporate ceo’s earn 400x their employees, couldn’t step in the keep the place running if they had to because they know squat about what workers actually do. None of us can fly the planes so pilots are earning their money as I see it.. Our anger is directed at the wrong people in this country.
Well good for the Captain I'm sure he has earned it. We are not living in the 1960s anymore .
To clarify this travesty a bit more, consider that their 1000 flight hours a year comes to just 20 hours a week. Plus since they fly every other leg, trading off with the first officer, they're on the plane those 20 hours but only actually flying 10 hours. This qualifies as a part time job, no? For half a million dollars a year. Moving into the left seat as captain from the first officer position,...
To clarify this travesty a bit more, consider that their 1000 flight hours a year comes to just 20 hours a week. Plus since they fly every other leg, trading off with the first officer, they're on the plane those 20 hours but only actually flying 10 hours. This qualifies as a part time job, no? For half a million dollars a year. Moving into the left seat as captain from the first officer position, used to take fifteen plus years of seniority. I've seen it happen now in as little as 3.5 years. After COVID, pilots were being offered $100k bonuses just for hopping ship to American. Is that compensation anywhere near rational? You be the judge.
Most pilots start out by making peanuts. It takes allot of time and hours to build up to this amount. If you're willing to live off of mac and cheese for several years, there's opportunity out there.
Once again, unions are driving consumer costs to unnecessary levels. No way they should be getting $500K a year.
This argument of "Oh they deserve it because they have my life in their hands" is ridiculous. So does an uber driver, bus driver and train driver - just to stick with the transportation industry. None of them make that kind of money.
Terrible analogy. Mindless and brainless. The scarecrow himself !
Terrible analogy. Mindless and brainless. The scarecrow himself !
I’m good with that. The pilot has our life in his hands. It is not if something goes wrong it’s when it goes wrong. I don’t want some idiot that doesn’t know what he is doing to fly the plane. Personally my life is worth millions to me so it seems a small amount for the safety of hundreds of people.
I am not. I think that is excessive. A doctor (not a specialist or a surgeon) makes a lot less than that.
Dude. This guy is an exception. I made way less than he did. People have got to get off Reddit and stop assuming one example carries on for all.
Get the skills and the job if you want the pay. My wealth does NOT cause your poverty!
Pilots are not overpaid....those who are not pilots just do not get it. How about a 7 hour red eye non-augmented that finishes with nasty winter weather and a windshear go around. Pilots posting salaries are morons, but no, pilots are not over paid. Look at the safety record in the USA. Should be 0 but I believe we have less than 50 fatalities in the passed 16 years and 3 due to commercial pilot...
Pilots are not overpaid....those who are not pilots just do not get it. How about a 7 hour red eye non-augmented that finishes with nasty winter weather and a windshear go around. Pilots posting salaries are morons, but no, pilots are not over paid. Look at the safety record in the USA. Should be 0 but I believe we have less than 50 fatalities in the passed 16 years and 3 due to commercial pilot error. Find me another way to move hundreds of millions of people annually at 600mph with all the weather, ATC issues, flying at the most messed up times with the most messed up schedules. Not everyone can do this job not matter what you think about just pushing a few buttons.
We have found another way with the same record. Its in europe! Where a whole other business model can exist because pilot unions haven't gate kept an entire profession. I think we're all for market pay - just eliminate the unions and let other talented pilots at the regionals or from around the world fly in the us. Only seems fair pilots should face the same labor markets as most of the people they're flying around does it not?
I’m glad I live in America!! Work my tail end off. Wouldn’t do it for a penny less. Thank goodness for unions protecting us from disastrous company decision making and poop salaries. This isn’t Europe. This is America. How about we can all be unique !?
If they paid me what i'm worth they couldn't afford me.
I am engaged to an American Airlines pilot. You have no idea of the stress and the responsibility that they endure. Also, very little time at home. Holidays are never spent with their Families.
The training to become a pilot is intense and expensive. There is so much more to it than sitting in the cockpit.
The stresses and training of a pilot pale in comparison what a surgeon has to endure. A specialist surgeon (like Neuro or Cardiothoracic) starts earning only in the mind to late 30s. To become any doctor in US you have to have to have a minimum of 21-25 (depending on specialty) years of education.
... in the mid (not mind) to late 30s .
When people finally realize what continuing devaluation of miles are actually worth and inability to use them for international F class (which was always the only decent ROI on B.I.S. investment) especially on good airlines, it will be game over.
Piloting takes a unique skill and there is a lot of responsibility so I all for them making a lot of money but half a million? Cmon, how much is too much? and I guarantee you they’ll be at the bargaining table in a couple of years wanting more. No wonder costs to fly are so out of hand. Nothing left for the flight attendants, gate agents, and rampers.
Factor in that pilots only actually fly every other leg and trade off with the first officer. So on, say, a "turn' from Miami to St. Vincent the captain actually flys for about 3.5 hours but gets 8 hours of pay. So that's almost $4000 for one take off and landing and updating a few course settings into the onboard computer that does the actual flying most of the time. I also am an airline...
Factor in that pilots only actually fly every other leg and trade off with the first officer. So on, say, a "turn' from Miami to St. Vincent the captain actually flys for about 3.5 hours but gets 8 hours of pay. So that's almost $4000 for one take off and landing and updating a few course settings into the onboard computer that does the actual flying most of the time. I also am an airline employee, and their salaries eat up so much of the total airline pie. You want stress? Look at what the agents must cope with. I respect pilots, but their pay has left reality land. At some point there will be one pilot and one AI flying the plane, more safely. So the days of those bizarre salaries are numbered.
Eliminate cabotage law and it would rebalance the scales because the elimination of that law would mean foreign carriers could transport passengers within the United States not just to and from the United States
Airline pilots making over $350k should be taxed at Bernie Sanders suggested 100% tax rate and the money either given to regional airline pilots or to us passengers as frequent flyer miles!
Everyone thinks they personally deserve more money, but not the next guy. They know what they will do in terms of financial incentives, but forget that there are a few professions in which the right person will determine whether they live or die. If you fly, you want there to be maximum competition for that pilot seat. I want their salary to be so high that there's a waiting list of people fighting and competing...
Everyone thinks they personally deserve more money, but not the next guy. They know what they will do in terms of financial incentives, but forget that there are a few professions in which the right person will determine whether they live or die. If you fly, you want there to be maximum competition for that pilot seat. I want their salary to be so high that there's a waiting list of people fighting and competing to get the job. If you're jealous of that, you probably don't fly much or at all.
If thats true then wouldn’t you want to allow people to actually compete for the role - the high pay is only because unions have limited the labor supply and want let qualified pilots from regionals or around the world fly. Youre arguing against the unions.
This article is about a moment in time, not a career value. Ask any pilot who is nearing retirement after a long career about pay and earnings. Go back to about 1990 when a 35 year career would have began. Since this is about AA, the typical AA pilot saw a furlough in 1993 causing backward movement. A good contract recovery from 1994 to 2001. Then a backslide again in 2003 with major loss of...
This article is about a moment in time, not a career value. Ask any pilot who is nearing retirement after a long career about pay and earnings. Go back to about 1990 when a 35 year career would have began. Since this is about AA, the typical AA pilot saw a furlough in 1993 causing backward movement. A good contract recovery from 1994 to 2001. Then a backslide again in 2003 with major loss of scheduling rules and a minimum of 23% pay cut. There were hundreds forced from captain to copilot making it about 50% while thousands were furloughed. This went on about 10 years and is still referred to as the lost decade. Then in 2012 bankruptcy. The typical AA pilot had earned a retirement worth about $3M and was just about the only thing still intact. That was erased along with more work rules. 2023 finally saw a rebound. Way too late for at least 1/3 of the most senior pilots. This pilot posting their pay is woefully naive. Or maybe he just wants to capture a day of "the good times". He flies for an airline addicted to making the same costly mistakes others have made. Works for a management that makes record revenue yet posts a loss. Best of luck and hopefully he will bank that pay so he can spend it when he needs it.
Absolutely spot on!
I made $22,000 my first year at AA. That was after paying for a pilot license as a civilian and spending almost eight years in the Marine Corps flying attack jets.
I lived through the years of lost pay and lost retirement. I especially remember when the execs gave themselves a bonus after we took a 23% pay cut.
Ask yourself how much you would be willing to pay...
Absolutely spot on!
I made $22,000 my first year at AA. That was after paying for a pilot license as a civilian and spending almost eight years in the Marine Corps flying attack jets.
I lived through the years of lost pay and lost retirement. I especially remember when the execs gave themselves a bonus after we took a 23% pay cut.
Ask yourself how much you would be willing to pay the person flying if you were on the jet that had an engine fire after take-off, or the next time your clenching the armrest because your on final and the storm is throwing the plane around and there is nothing to see outside the window until a you’re just a few feet above the ground. How many times a day do you think pilots make decisions that save lives? You don’t think of them because nothing bad happens, but those pilots save lives everyday. What is your life worth?
I’m cool with that salary for pilots - but I hope other professions get more than what they are paid. I absolutely can’t live without the McDonald workers in my area
There’s a lot to respond to, and even agree with since my last post. But I will cut to the chase:
I’ve found through the years many that think that pilots’ wages are the sole contributing factor to higher ticket prices. But in reality the average fare in 2016 was close to half the average fare from 1979. I’m sure that’s increased a bit since revenge travel post-Covid.
And while we’re going to disagree...
There’s a lot to respond to, and even agree with since my last post. But I will cut to the chase:
I’ve found through the years many that think that pilots’ wages are the sole contributing factor to higher ticket prices. But in reality the average fare in 2016 was close to half the average fare from 1979. I’m sure that’s increased a bit since revenge travel post-Covid.
And while we’re going to disagree about the benefits of scope clauses, they do create an air of protection, sure. But as someone said, and y’all here should know, the real money comes from FF programs and credit card deals. In the days before that took off, your low fares were subsidized by the wage cuts pilots and FAs took in the numerous Chapter 11 filings. Nowadays your low fares (and to a degree, our wages too) are subsidized by credit card deals.
I think it would be very informative for the public to get a full breakdown of the costs of their air travel.
The airlines have made billions on profits. Billions with a B. I don't see the prices of tickets going down or the quality if service going way up. Seems the real reason is management spending decisions. They are spending on their labor, themselves (AA's CEO is the highest paid in the industry at over $34M). They just are choosing to keep the rest and not pass it to you.
@Jon. More so, the reality is that if airlines understood that pilots are not so scarce (See the Europe example...just as safe) they could pay pilots less, still make billions, and actually have a more balance of service to fare value.
Yes, we are overpaid for what we do. Afterall we are just glorified bus drivers.,
We takeoff , Autopilot comes on, wee press half a dozen other buttons during flight, fly the approach to 1000 ft , autopilot off and land. Anyone can do it.
It’s the Sacrifices for the holidays, birthdays, and anniversary we miss that make it hard. And time away from home is why most people don’t want to do it, but now is the best time to be a pilot
No such thing as air traffic controllers, police, firefighters, hospital workers, and so many more that work through those same weekends and holidays and are fortunate to make one forth of the pilot’s salary mentioned and none of them get to go home once they reach the max work limit. The flight benefits that the pilots have should be worth knocking off 100k from that $450k
And another that thinks they are special and somehow different. There are millions of others, making far less, that make sacrifices every day for their careers. Seriously, you all live in a bubble.
I wonder how it compares to ME3 or Cathay pilots. But they deserve it routinely in charge of hundreds of lives in a metal tube flying 500 mph
It is a great time to be a major airline pilot. I look at the recent large increase in pay as payback for the airlines taking advantage of us after 9/11. Almost all of us had our pensions frozen. I personally went 14 years to make as much as I did in the year 2000. I still save as much as I can because you never know what’s going to happen next.
I recently traversed 63 time zones in 15 days. Try doing that every month. It can’t be very healthy.
Says the pilot posting to a road warrior blog about time zone traversing. Nor do I believe you.
We are also slogging it out right there with you. With that, we don't have private security lines, crew rest seats (when we work), timing out of our work under crises, a team that manages our diversion or cancellation accommodations and transfers, or three days off in another home far from your base office.
The...
Says the pilot posting to a road warrior blog about time zone traversing. Nor do I believe you.
We are also slogging it out right there with you. With that, we don't have private security lines, crew rest seats (when we work), timing out of our work under crises, a team that manages our diversion or cancellation accommodations and transfers, or three days off in another home far from your base office.
The reality is that many of us are the butts in your seats that give you purpose. Start being more respectful to that in your comments or go haul Amazon packages on an antiquated 767 painted with Prime.
I work for one of the big 3! 729k gross for the year. Just efficient at picking up premium trips and moving my days off.
I know several CAs who cleared 1M. It isn’t hard to do if you are smart with your time.
787 F/O
Who wants to fly with pilots who get minimum wage?
lol so high pay makes automatically a pilot good. Is that what you’re saying?
The pay for all professions is dictated by " the division of labor" and " market rate". The criteria includes education, training and experience. It is unfathomable where and how the level of stress, risks and safety management come into play!!! Associations and unions of white collar professions put up countless barriers and restrictions to limit the admission of members into their professions in order to maintain the salaries as high as the market can...
The pay for all professions is dictated by " the division of labor" and " market rate". The criteria includes education, training and experience. It is unfathomable where and how the level of stress, risks and safety management come into play!!! Associations and unions of white collar professions put up countless barriers and restrictions to limit the admission of members into their professions in order to maintain the salaries as high as the market can bear. It is AMA's top priority.
About a decade ago, I knew a truck driver who said that his doctor refused to sign off his next medical report certifying he pass an eye test. We used to worry about drunk drivers. Now we do not know who a stoned driver is. If you fail a medical test that jeopardizes your career, you must not put other lives at risk by finding ways to beat the system. Pilots alone will not fly the planes safely and smoothly. It is a team effort that involves ATCs, airplane manufacturers and employees, inspectors, etc...Pilots pick up overtime to maximize their incomes legitimately. Unlike doctors who maximizes their incomes by performing unnecessary surgeries or addicting their patients to prescriptions. Or lawyers who outsize their incomes by filing frivolous lawsuits. Are US pilots only able to fly certain planes that no other foreign pilots can? I seriously doubt other western pilots are interested to work for US carriers if they already have their employment at home or elsewhere. I believe the executives' compensation package and shareholders are the impediment to airlines' longevity and stability. The answer to the huge gap of salaries among professions is Darwinism's
" The fittest will survive".
I do not care what a pilot or first officer gets paid, it isn't enough. They go thru a lot of stress and training to keep the flying public safe. The last thing anyone needs is a pilot with a gripe with management flying a complex machine with my butt in a seat. Those guys in the front are the first ones at the scene of the accident if things go wrong. I want them happy and relaxed.
If you don't like it, drive.
This kind of cracks me up. Ohhh let’s pile on. The guy that posted his pay on the web is a d!@k. Nuff said.
Everyone wants to be a pilot, I get it, we’re cool, but so very few can cut it, that’s why the pay is high.
The market can be a bitch. I made more as a 727 captain than I did after 9/11 and a huge pay cut as a...
This kind of cracks me up. Ohhh let’s pile on. The guy that posted his pay on the web is a d!@k. Nuff said.
Everyone wants to be a pilot, I get it, we’re cool, but so very few can cut it, that’s why the pay is high.
The market can be a bitch. I made more as a 727 captain than I did after 9/11 and a huge pay cut as a 767 captain. I made more after a bankruptcy than I did prior. Pensions changed, got paid out, 401Ks got better. Profit sharing etc.
Sometimes people make comments about what I make, my response is I can kill 300+ at a time, a doctor can only kill one at a time.
The reality is you are not cool. Especially you, after reading this comment. You managed to insult your customers, people in other occupations, and basically calling us suckers. More so, you come across with your last statement as a deranged person who I really hope is never flying an aircraft I am sitting on.
While ground employees gets crappy pay. Not that a pilot dont deserves the pay but it takes more than I employee group to have a successful and pleasing trip for passengers. And likewise every group shoud be better compensated rather than concentrate on one group. Fact
I don't know, the pay scale seems distorted... Twenty year FAA certified air traffic controller yops out around 160K a year and is technically responsible for far more lives then a single pilot day in and day out. Military pilots haul cargo and fly fighters, squadron commanders are a dime a dozen with little experience in the real world (note; you're no longer responsible for a squadron or fighter wing.. you drive the bus now),...
I don't know, the pay scale seems distorted... Twenty year FAA certified air traffic controller yops out around 160K a year and is technically responsible for far more lives then a single pilot day in and day out. Military pilots haul cargo and fly fighters, squadron commanders are a dime a dozen with little experience in the real world (note; you're no longer responsible for a squadron or fighter wing.. you drive the bus now),
The FAA hasn't had financial support to hire, train, and put new air traffic controllers in the field. Same excuse.. budget constraints. 25% under staffed. Just look at the last goverment shutdown. Airlines screamed about flight delays but nobody wants to pony up the bucks to fix the system. Senior, heck any pilot has significant responsibility for flight safety for a single aircraft. You drive the bus you become responsible but its just a job and 50% of the people out there could be trained to do the same job. and the training to get to that position is not as extreme as they want you to belive. Controllers have more responsibility day in and day out.
Why does an FAA certified air traffic controller have to be hired before turning 31? Mandatory retirement at age 56? Pilots age 65. Why? Answer; skills matter
Just my two cents.
Retired FAA Controller
What needs to be mentioned too is the risk of losing your medical certificate. Pretty much any other similarly-compensated professional can develop serious chronic conditions (whether heart disease, cancer, mental health, etc) and be able to see doctors, take all recommended medications, etc, while keeping their job. There's a lot of old-school criteria for pilots to maintain their medicals. Many avoid doctors (or treatment of specific conditions they suspect they have) so that they don't...
What needs to be mentioned too is the risk of losing your medical certificate. Pretty much any other similarly-compensated professional can develop serious chronic conditions (whether heart disease, cancer, mental health, etc) and be able to see doctors, take all recommended medications, etc, while keeping their job. There's a lot of old-school criteria for pilots to maintain their medicals. Many avoid doctors (or treatment of specific conditions they suspect they have) so that they don't get grounded. And even if you do everything right, the annual require EKG for ages 40+ could catch something that's overall not very serious but enough to ground you.
So yes, while pilots can make the big bucks if they're captain at the right airline on the right equipment and strategically bid / pick-up the most lucrative schedule, it can all disappear in an instant as well.
Also, while their compensation can be high, it also has a natural ceiling.
Meanwhile, something less glamorous (like a master plumber starting a plumbing business) can grow without a natural ceiling. Most won't become national franchises, but a few can become regionally large enough to be worth in the low 8 figures+.
Same for car dealership owners, lawyers, physicians, etc. Their income potential is practically unbounded if they're willing to work hard enough and take...
Also, while their compensation can be high, it also has a natural ceiling.
Meanwhile, something less glamorous (like a master plumber starting a plumbing business) can grow without a natural ceiling. Most won't become national franchises, but a few can become regionally large enough to be worth in the low 8 figures+.
Same for car dealership owners, lawyers, physicians, etc. Their income potential is practically unbounded if they're willing to work hard enough and take enough business risks that pan out.
@Simon Or like Sully you can actually have a side gig (as many pilots did/do) to subsidize their income. Real estate, rental properties, consulting. Give me a break. You all do it and actually have more time for it than most. And if you don't, it's because you are happy in your income box as it is. Let's not even talk about those leveraging social media income with posts about their career daily.
Sorry, you are no different. And you are not fooling me.
They have insurance policies to cover that event.
Lots of jobs have similiar issues. Color blind.. close the door on a lot of jobs. ATC have the very same issues you complain about, we can all justify our existence. A pilot is no different then a bus driver that can no longer drive due to a medical condition. Back in the day when I was an active air traffic controller we could get our license pulled for all the same reasons as a...
Lots of jobs have similiar issues. Color blind.. close the door on a lot of jobs. ATC have the very same issues you complain about, we can all justify our existence. A pilot is no different then a bus driver that can no longer drive due to a medical condition. Back in the day when I was an active air traffic controller we could get our license pulled for all the same reasons as a pilot, but also the same reason a bus drive is out of work.
I couldn't work while on any prescribed medications including over the counter products. Alcohol? nothing in your system 8 hours prior to work, I don't mean stop drinking, I mean an almost constant refrain so that nothing is in your system 8 hours prior. Ironically pilots have a BAC Kimit of 0.04%. They have an 8-hour rule but can still act as a crew member with a 0.039% at flight time.
“At many airlines, your average captain is earning more than your average mid-level executive who is making some major decisions for the airline.” And a pilot isn’t? A narrow body airline Captain’s single bad decision can result in 200 deaths and billions in liability to the company. And they make thousands of decisions a year that could turn out catastrophic. And to anyone that wishes to make that pay rather than what they’re making, the path is well defined.
This industry is extremely cyclical- seems like a huge crisis occurs every decade. That $$ number wasn't nearly as high as post 9-11. And thousands (honestly, and literally) of pilots were furloughed. Some for more than a decade. So yeah, it's a big $ number today and the pilots should enjoy it. But remember, when the pendulum swings, it swings hard.
They deserve every dollar if they are good pilots. There’s a lot they have to know - especially flying in bad weather and fog that you can’t see anything. A good pilot has to rely on what message they get from the instruments in order to be safe. I watch Air disasters and I see the good and bad pilots and what goes on in amergency situations.
No issues with that. Often Pilots come from the world of the military. Spent 20 years in it then moved on to the Airlines. If your 20 years in USAF you come out a Lt. Colonel or Colonel. A person that has immense responsibility from being a Squadron Commander, Wing Commander or Group Commander. If your on the later two you tend to have dozens of Aircraft and thousands. of Airmen under your charge.
...No issues with that. Often Pilots come from the world of the military. Spent 20 years in it then moved on to the Airlines. If your 20 years in USAF you come out a Lt. Colonel or Colonel. A person that has immense responsibility from being a Squadron Commander, Wing Commander or Group Commander. If your on the later two you tend to have dozens of Aircraft and thousands. of Airmen under your charge.
What would anyone like them to be paid to get you safely across the ocean?
I did a quick back of the envelope calculation out of curiosity;
avg airline pilots
$ 77,000 in 1978
$150,000 in 1991
$457,895 in 2025
avg US earnings
$10,556 in 1978 13.7%
$15,075 in 1991 10.1%
$62,192 in 2025 13.6%
I'm surprised it's relatively unchanged. I was thinking that the lack of good union support would've dragged avg US earnings behind that of pilots.
I mean management has a point about pay. The only profitable part of the airline is the frequent flyer program. The fact that pilots have squeezed the airline into unprofitable airlines while US fares remain high means the pilots are clearly overpaid compared to their peers. There really is no defense for all their lobbying to keep pay high. It’s crazy the unions have more lobbying power than any shareholder group who you’d think would...
I mean management has a point about pay. The only profitable part of the airline is the frequent flyer program. The fact that pilots have squeezed the airline into unprofitable airlines while US fares remain high means the pilots are clearly overpaid compared to their peers. There really is no defense for all their lobbying to keep pay high. It’s crazy the unions have more lobbying power than any shareholder group who you’d think would be capable of at least getting labor costs to break even economics on flight ops.
That's right, blame the unions and pilot pay for the airlines financial issues. You failed to mention that the CEO of Delta made 24 million in total compensation last year. But then maybe you don't think their overpaid.
This is simply another "protected" profession within the United States. Imagine if foreign pilots could compete for the same positions. The salaries would drop precipitously.
I only mention this because often Americans will claim that undocumented migrants are doing the jobs no American is willing to do. The truth is quite different - open the profession and the salary will drop to such a level that Americans will never want to do that work...
This is simply another "protected" profession within the United States. Imagine if foreign pilots could compete for the same positions. The salaries would drop precipitously.
I only mention this because often Americans will claim that undocumented migrants are doing the jobs no American is willing to do. The truth is quite different - open the profession and the salary will drop to such a level that Americans will never want to do that work again. The same would be very true of pilots working for the legacy airlines.
I'm retired now...but when I flew professionally, the generally accepted opinion was that "you're overpaid almost all the time...until those 30 critical seconds in an emergency when you earn it all."
Yes, like most careers. Are you so special?
I think you are trolling, but I’ll bite. How many other professions require someone to make split minute decisions to avoid tumbling from the sky with 100+ people on board, potentially putting people under the flight path in danger too?
Even surgeons are only responsible for one life at at time.
So you are saying a single bus driver who controls 40-50 lives should make a scaled pay as such? If this about risk in the cumulative I imagine they should be at the same scale given it's one driver versus two (or 3-4 depending on routes). Have fun defending the scale aspect.
It's frankly hard to imagine that narrowbody pilots should be earning that much. This is straight salary, not bonuses or profit-sharing or stock options, and many of their expenses (while working) are covered also. Not sure they need to be making so much more than many/most highly skilled professionals.
Maybe as senior pilots due to retire after a long career, but as a "normal" thing it feels absurd.
*shrug* it's all supply and demand and how well you negotiate pay for yourself. Surgeons get paid a lot as do athletes and entertainers and good software engineers. It's when you get to people like upper mgmt who make millions and you're pretty sure they don't deserve $10.
Except every one of those markets but pilots is open to anyone and people are free to negotiate with employers. How is that the same
Pilot is the rare highly paid job that doesn't go home with you. For the most part highly paid jobs have blurry boundaries and can be all consuming while lower paid jobs tend to be ones that people can forget when they walk out the door.
No judgement about it, just an observation.
Its a great time to be a pilot. I made 500k my last year at AA. I was a 737 ca. i got alot of premium trips and sold back most of my vacation.
The companies should be cursed for paying the flight attendants so little. I don't blame the pilots but the FA's are treated so poorly. They should at least be paid for boarding time. How about a living wage?
the average US flight attendant makes about $70k which is about 10% above the average salary in the general American workforce.
DL led the industry in adding boarding pay and several airlines including AA offer it.
Notably, UA has neither settled a post covid FA contract - the only one of the big 4 not to raise pay post covid - and also does not pay boarding pay
No, Tim,they don't. I'm an average FA, and, no we don't. I do because it's the only job I've had that I actually like.
You can make this in like your late 20s at McKinsey. Doesn't seem at all crazy for a late-career high-complexity professional job like this
People talk about the 1500 hours, which is even mentioned here in Ben's writeup, but that's not the beginning nor the end of it. It takes a lot of time and money to get the left-hand seat before you THEN need 1500 hours and the right timing, events, and luck to get into the right hand seat, and that's not on an A321.
Direct flight and training costs:
- NOTHING to private pilot's certification....
People talk about the 1500 hours, which is even mentioned here in Ben's writeup, but that's not the beginning nor the end of it. It takes a lot of time and money to get the left-hand seat before you THEN need 1500 hours and the right timing, events, and luck to get into the right hand seat, and that's not on an A321.
Direct flight and training costs:
- NOTHING to private pilot's certification. About 60-80 hours and $15K-$20K out of your broke-ass pocket.
- Private pilot to commercial. About 20-50 hours so another $5K - $12.5K.
Indirect costs
- All those miles to and from the airport(s) for your training flights and ground session.
- equipment including headset ($1K), books, study guides ($1K)
- your time since you can't be doing anything else while studying. 80-130 hours at whatever your earning rate is.
NOW after ALL those costs if the stars align you can fly FO on a puddle jumper and work your way up those 1500 hours.
Figure if you're REALLY REALLY good 1-2 years of your life.
Should you not expect to make Big Boy Bootie at the top of the ladder? It's not just "left seat" -- it's a tremendous responsibility for each and every flight and that includes the safety of 60-180-360 no-pitch'ers in the back and your flight crew.
It's a career, not a job. The earlier you start (20s to early 30s) the better your chances. Military experience helps but the FAA won't homologate it all, so still a lot of work, a lot of studying, and expensive.
I wouldn't do it for half a mil, and I'm already FAA Commercial Pilot certificated.
Would you?
Someone has to point out that these unions and pay packages are the reason low cost models don't work in the US. its a level of consumer exploitation we don't allow anywhere else in the economy and its wrong. Time to break up the unions and let European pilots compete - the same way I have to compete with them in the professional labor market.
A few things are left out. For non-military pilot initial flight training costs over $110,000. Military training (which one has to qualify for) takes 18 months - 2 years. The Air Force requires a 10-year active-duty service commitment after completing pilot training with the other branches having similar requirements.
The same people who are complaining about pilot's salary levels will be the ones also posting, "If you don't like your job, find another one...
A few things are left out. For non-military pilot initial flight training costs over $110,000. Military training (which one has to qualify for) takes 18 months - 2 years. The Air Force requires a 10-year active-duty service commitment after completing pilot training with the other branches having similar requirements.
The same people who are complaining about pilot's salary levels will be the ones also posting, "If you don't like your job, find another one that pays better or has better working conditions. It's a free market." They are also the same people who vote against their own financial interests and complain about unions. The pilots were smart enough after multiple bankruptcies and watching their pensions turn to dust during mergers to join up together to demand better working conditions and pay.
Umm, have you seen the cost of any education or training today? Or do you live in a bubble where you think that you are the only profession subject to it? Few of those careers are leading towards a climb of $500K a year in salary. Few of those are as easy as yours where you walk in, do your job, and go home after a trip for a few days. Many are far higher...
Umm, have you seen the cost of any education or training today? Or do you live in a bubble where you think that you are the only profession subject to it? Few of those careers are leading towards a climb of $500K a year in salary. Few of those are as easy as yours where you walk in, do your job, and go home after a trip for a few days. Many are far higher stress in being outrageous in demands 24/7. Spare me your pout of how difficult your job and training is. The only thing you have going for you is this weird romancing of pilots that people have. As if you are somehow romantic cowboys sent to save us all. Eye roll...
“At many airlines, your average captain is earning more than your average mid-level executive who is making some major decisions for the airline.”
Major decisions? LOL! Yeah, pilots never have to make them./s
As for the pilot that put his pay stub on the internet…every group has its narcissists.
No, pilots never have to make them. It's just another level the decisions of mid-level executives have.
Please remember: It's more than 99,9% of all flights operating safely without any incident that really requires the skills pilots train for. Whilst in the office, the emergency is kinda everyday ;)
The pilot is responsible for the lives of the hundreds of people on their aircraft. They aren’t paid that well for the routine, they are paid that well because they know how to react in an emergency. It’s joked that pilots only land and take off, that’s cool with me, I don’t trust my life in the hands of a computer alone.
What happens when they screw up, crash and kill everyone? Money well spent right?
If it were that simple then why aren’t pilots around the world paid this much? Do non-US airlines not understand the value of the pilots responsibility?
If it were that simple, why would do heart surgeons get visas to work in the US but foreign pilots cannot? And even if a foreign pilot does get a visa, a senior captain from an airline like Air France or British Airways automatically gets demoted to junior...
If it were that simple then why aren’t pilots around the world paid this much? Do non-US airlines not understand the value of the pilots responsibility?
If it were that simple, why would do heart surgeons get visas to work in the US but foreign pilots cannot? And even if a foreign pilot does get a visa, a senior captain from an airline like Air France or British Airways automatically gets demoted to junior pilot at a regional airline and has to climb the ladder all over again. That should show you that their pay is not based on saving lives at all. It’s supply and demand like any other job. And the laws and unions lock out other pilots to cause a shortage and inflate the salaries
That's why they don't want to deal with people who are trouble. Just let the flight attendants do it.
And American will still strand you without a bed or even an airport floor to sleep on if they feel like it. I don't fly with them any more.
But no one is upset a guy who can throw/catch/hit a ball makes $60M per year...
He competes in a fair labor market that allows in talent from all around the world. Why can't us pilots do the same. scope clause much?
I AM!
Right on...or someone who tells jokes on TV or sings songs...
Idk they can negotiate it so good for them. Requirements to be a commercial pilot are onerous, and the duties significant. Overall American pilots especially have a pretty stellar safety record. What's really another $100k, $200k a year for me as a passenger spread out across the hundreds of passengers in a plane for just one flight?
I know of one fairly exclusive neighborhood close to where I live that has the moneyed types. The occupations of the residents are VP-level and up corporate execs, surgeons/doctors, real estate types, hedge fund traders, car dealership owners... and at least two retired airline pilots. I think that speaks for itself.
All relative to responsibilities, in many cases. Just read that the President of Brown University earns over 3 million per year and this should leave the internet speechless.
I think the frustrating part is that if you go get a 4-year degree, you've easily invested more than 1500 hours in to that, never mind the cost associated with getting it. Even if you put in the same number of years and get promotions along the road, you're never going to come anywhere close to matching what the pilots earn. Never mind the fact that that same person is working 2x the hours to...
I think the frustrating part is that if you go get a 4-year degree, you've easily invested more than 1500 hours in to that, never mind the cost associated with getting it. Even if you put in the same number of years and get promotions along the road, you're never going to come anywhere close to matching what the pilots earn. Never mind the fact that that same person is working 2x the hours to earn that (and yes, I know time on trips/etc isn't counted in pilot's hours for earning).
"Deserve" is a word that doesn't really belong in the conversation, but if you're looking at it solely based on investment required to get to a given earning potential, it doesn't really feel like it's fair to the rest of the employees working hard to get you where you need to be at an airline.
Ahhhh... a 4 year degree is just the starting point for airline pilots. From there you add all the training, hour-building in the regionals while sometimes sleeping on benches, making multiple flights in a day, being away from family for days at a time, etc.
Even those who choose the military route, generally get their Bachelor's degree before joining up as an officer.
And for the plethora who choose the civilian route, the training and...
Ahhhh... a 4 year degree is just the starting point for airline pilots. From there you add all the training, hour-building in the regionals while sometimes sleeping on benches, making multiple flights in a day, being away from family for days at a time, etc.
Even those who choose the military route, generally get their Bachelor's degree before joining up as an officer.
And for the plethora who choose the civilian route, the training and time-building is VERY expensive... and time consuming. For most it's years to get to the point of flying Grand Canyon tours to build hours. Then it's to the regionals to build hours as an FO right-seater before making captain... then eventually to the majors as a right-seater.
I chose a different career path based on the family part alone.
@Steve. Sounds like the work and trajectory of most trained careers. Are you so special?
These salaries are for seasoned pilots with ten, twenty thousand hours logged and flying for the large airlines. The regional pilots flying the smaller planes make ridiculously less, in the area of $50-65k.
Incorrect. At least 100K Year 1 is easy to make at a regional
Its more than that now - but the scope clause is an absurd attack on them. its gatekeeping of the highest order.
I work in the pilot training industry. I remember when the starting salary of a regional 1st officer was under $12-13K. They qualified for food stamps. At one airline one of the interview questions was "How are you going to live on the salary we are going to pay you?"
Times have changed. However, the odds of any one pilot making it to the top of the pay scale are not all that great....
I work in the pilot training industry. I remember when the starting salary of a regional 1st officer was under $12-13K. They qualified for food stamps. At one airline one of the interview questions was "How are you going to live on the salary we are going to pay you?"
Times have changed. However, the odds of any one pilot making it to the top of the pay scale are not all that great. Plenty of pilots have been screwed when their airline goes bust, bankrupt, or is bought out by another one. Ask those retired US Airways pilots what happened to their pensions when their airline was bought by AA.
US terminated its own pension plans in one of their 2 chapter 11s.
AA's pensions were frozen - like DL and NW's - in chapter 11.
DL pilot pensions were terminated because they contained a lump sum provision which hundreds of DL pilots took post 9/11 which made the pension plan unsaveable, unlike NW pilots or DL or NW's other pension plans.
Just to add my own bit of perspective… because I think perspective is key to this debate.
I started at American Eagle in 1999. I did not break six figures until 2010, which was my 2ND year as a captain. We endured furloughs, flowbacks, and unyielding schedules. Once the CEO rode on one of my flights. He showed up in a full length fur coat, riding his own personal bus out to the plane on...
Just to add my own bit of perspective… because I think perspective is key to this debate.
I started at American Eagle in 1999. I did not break six figures until 2010, which was my 2ND year as a captain. We endured furloughs, flowbacks, and unyielding schedules. Once the CEO rode on one of my flights. He showed up in a full length fur coat, riding his own personal bus out to the plane on the remote ramp. Later that year when his compensation was announced, I did the math… he made more than 350X than me. He made more in one day than I did all year.
What’s my paycheck now? It’s pretty nice, tbh and I am very grateful. My tax withholding is greater than any paycheck I had as an Eagle FO and yeah, I would consider that a bit ridiculous, the comps between what I made THEN vs. NOW. But I do believe it averages out over what will be a 35 year career to a decent wage.
And one last comment about perspective. Is anyone familiar with sports fans complaining about athletes’ pay being ridiculous and how it drives up the cost of tickets/stadium experience? Or is it just the flying public, with their persistent sense of entitlement, that does this?
This
People are so stupid
The total time involved is akin to surgeons
I want the person responsible for getting me back on the ground safely to be well rested, well-treated and well compensated
No, Steve, the total time is not akin to a surgeon. A surgeon puts in 4 years of medical school following college while paying $40-65k/year in tuition, then a minimum of six years or residency while making less than a flight attendant, and often 3 years of fellowship at a slightly higher salary.
The sports thing is such a stupid example. Sports are a much purer labor market that isn't protected from outside competition. Can you imagine if the NFL had a scope clause or didn't allow players from other leagues to play in the US? The only unions that are as harmful to American society as pilots unions are the police unions.
Let's do a little arithmetic. Plugging in some hypothetical numbers, what is the pilot's pay per passenger ferried? We can expect that part of the passenger ticket price has been calculated for that.
A Boeing 737 might carry 175 ticketed passengers. (Some carry more, some carry fewer, but let's just use that number for now.) A pilot may carry this number on each of 3 or 4 trips per shift. For this example, let's...
Let's do a little arithmetic. Plugging in some hypothetical numbers, what is the pilot's pay per passenger ferried? We can expect that part of the passenger ticket price has been calculated for that.
A Boeing 737 might carry 175 ticketed passengers. (Some carry more, some carry fewer, but let's just use that number for now.) A pilot may carry this number on each of 3 or 4 trips per shift. For this example, let's say 3. So in a week where a pilot has taken four shifts, he might have flown 2,100 souls on board. Plus the souls of the flight crew, too, but let's leave them out of the math for now. With these assumptions, his/her $11K weekly compensation comes out to $5.25 per passenger on board. I am happy to pay a pilot $5.25 to be the guy or gal he/she is doing that job.
Question: What's the difference between a "good" landing and a "great" landing?
Answer: A "good" landing is one where all the passengers can walk away. A "great" landing is one where you can reuse the plane.
And a great comment is this one!
Thanks for the perspective.
Hopefully some of these stupid people actually read it and get a little more educated.
Question - if airlines have negative unit economics now outside their frequent flyer programs and true LCC models don't work in the us - might the pilot pay be the issue?
The Europeans have the same safety record we do - so its not the pay making the difference. they just believe that mobility is a right of the flying public and they don't have the ability to restrict labor supply our unions do. How...
Question - if airlines have negative unit economics now outside their frequent flyer programs and true LCC models don't work in the us - might the pilot pay be the issue?
The Europeans have the same safety record we do - so its not the pay making the difference. they just believe that mobility is a right of the flying public and they don't have the ability to restrict labor supply our unions do. How can you fail to compare our labor market to others in the world. Its literally the most fungible job in the world.
@Goheelz. Comment of the day. You nailed the nuts and bolts.
Your article leaves out some very important history! Let's take the current "senior pilot" hired in the 80s (who are now earning the "Big bucks") and average it out over a 40-year career. During that time let's not forget the "lost 15 years" of which there were NO wage increases!, as a matter of fact there were the never ending pay and benefit cuts,(20-25%) "to save the airline" (from poor management).... only to see those...
Your article leaves out some very important history! Let's take the current "senior pilot" hired in the 80s (who are now earning the "Big bucks") and average it out over a 40-year career. During that time let's not forget the "lost 15 years" of which there were NO wage increases!, as a matter of fact there were the never ending pay and benefit cuts,(20-25%) "to save the airline" (from poor management).... only to see those "give backs" lost, then followed by the same lousy management team filing Bankruptcy! Followed by more pay and benefits cuts, in addition to losing 25 years of retirement funding with the stroke of a pen! Do the math! By the time I retire in 2.5 years, those who were left "speechless" would see a lifetimes earning history that isn't so outrageous!
you do realize (whether you do or not doesn't matter) that most chapter 11 bankruptcies in the US were driven by defined benefit plans that grew far too costly to support esp. post 9/11?
yes, many airlines took the hatchet to pilot benefits and pay as part of their chapter 11 filings but it is possible to be topped out and making these kinds of salaries and have been hired in the past 15...
you do realize (whether you do or not doesn't matter) that most chapter 11 bankruptcies in the US were driven by defined benefit plans that grew far too costly to support esp. post 9/11?
yes, many airlines took the hatchet to pilot benefits and pay as part of their chapter 11 filings but it is possible to be topped out and making these kinds of salaries and have been hired in the past 15 years. I am pretty sure that the majority of airline pilots at the big 4 have been hired since the Great Recession - the past 15 years.
Again, just post the average pilot salary vs. the average American worker over the past 25 years- which encompasses most US pilots - and see how pilots compare.
airlines like WN never had defined benefit pension plans which were problematic for the steel industry; DB plans are a small minority esp. in the private sector.
I am not arguing for or against what pilots make but simply pointing out that some of the facts that pilots make simply does not hold water - and likely didn't even apply in the case of this pilot.
I was thinking this would be the cat of a Dreamliner for 777 not a 737
in any event in a society where any HS drop out can make millions (for now)
by gambling on bit coin and given the responsibility if/when it hits the fan
I want only the best and am willing to pay for it
Definitely seems like a lower pay cap is needed, given that other professions with similar levels of responsibility and longer and more expensive education pipelines top out lower.
How many other professions are there where one is responsible for the lives of upwards of 200 people or more at any given time while working?
Having recently retired from many years (45) flying for a major airline, all I can say is, save your money boys, save your money. It will not last.
Any certified pilot has my respect. Understand the complex operations of any aircraft and the experiences and time required to be a airline Captain is hard for the average person earning the average wages. Flying in all weather situations, in airframes that do peculiar things like compressor stalls on take off with 200 souls on board is worth every dollar of salary.
While it is true that mid-level executives earn less and make decisions for the airlines, pilots are there to make sure that we get from one point to another alive. They're worth it.
ehhhh… Take a look at a senior U.S. airline pilot’s AGI from 2005, then apply the U.S. inflation calculator - and then judge how ‘outrageous’ present earnings are.
And if you go on Pprune pilots belly ache all the time. Ingrates.
The obsolete can enjoy it while it last.
The 2nd biggest cost center and the leading cause of accidents.
Their days are numbered.
Their expiration is way overdue.
What rot, numpty. You know absolutely nothing about pilots and even less about flying …. probably the only ‘flying’ you have done is on a merry-go-round in the playground.
@Ben: Taking the military route involves a lot more than simply "investing time but not money".
These folks control aircraft that fly eight miles up at 600 mph, and one wrong move and everybody on board is toast. I would be nervous if they were paid any less.
So you don't feel safe when flying e.g. Iberia which pays its pilots a fraction of that?
If you're in the ICU, your critical care physician makes less than this (US average about $400k/yr). His/her training included four years of medical school while paying $40-60K tuition per year, and three years of residency plus three more years of fellowship earning less than $60k/yr.
So about the same cost and training time as a major airline pilot then. Gotcha'.
Thanks
@Steve With the exception that your physician in an ICU is the one factor balancing whether you live or die. They don't have crew rest seats. Mandated rest times. Nor do they time out on their shift and walk away from their patients surgery because, umm, well, I timed out. They single handedly hold your life in their hands and fight for it.
You? Hardly. No more than any driver, engineer, or anyone facilitating...
@Steve With the exception that your physician in an ICU is the one factor balancing whether you live or die. They don't have crew rest seats. Mandated rest times. Nor do they time out on their shift and walk away from their patients surgery because, umm, well, I timed out. They single handedly hold your life in their hands and fight for it.
You? Hardly. No more than any driver, engineer, or anyone facilitating transport to the masses. You are shuttling people. They are saving people. HUGE difference.
You go home after a few days and rest for a few days. You press some buttons in between. You gossip and look at your iPads the rest of the time. Physicians in an ICU live every day with their jobs in the stress of not only trying to save someone but knowing that they could be sued in the end for basically anything along the way. So, honestly, get over it.
Incorrect, Steve. Commercial pilot licensing and onboarding typically takes 5 years or less, and can be partially overlapped with college. The cost typically runs less than $100,000 total. Critical Care training takes a minimum of 10 years and roughly $180k if you go to an instate public medical school. Durring residency and fellowship pay typically falls below the average salary of a flight attendant, and the monthly hours are far longer.
They're responsible for people's LIVES!! Pay them whatever they want.
Oh Ben this one will drive the egalitarian base nuts.
Lots of comments about the word "deserve". "Deserve" is not a relevant word when it comes to who gets paid what. The only thing that matters when it comes to salary discussions is the minimum amount of money administration feel will keep good talent from going to their competitors.
They don’t go to competitors. They’d have to start over on seniority and pay. It’s a rigged market.
That's part of my point. Seniority is a tool that keeps good talent from going to competitors. It does not matter if comparative senior pilots "deserve" more than pilots with less experience
For those saying regional airline salaries are very low, let me help add a data point from my years at a regional this decade….
Year 1 (starting in Feb): 113,000
Year 2: 157,000 (part of the year paid as a captain still FO though). Flew ~700 hours Year 2
None of the nice 401k and all that you see in the majors stubs.
How long does it take to get to this point vs getting paid well but a lot less on regional airline contracts etc?
Southwest Airlines Boeing 737 captains easily make more than this. They are the highest paid narrow body pilots in the world.
It takes a huge toll on the body to constantly be sitting still and to constantly be subject to jet lag. The salaries are fair.
This is why ALPA was so much in the mix to get the 737MAX out ASAP. The MAX provided new levels of economics that would support higher pilot pay in a particular air market.
Consumers don't realize that the breakthroughs in airframes with carbon fiber tubes and high efficiency engines are in part absorbed by the unions to increase their pay. This is why in some cases fares appear to rarely change even though it...
This is why ALPA was so much in the mix to get the 737MAX out ASAP. The MAX provided new levels of economics that would support higher pilot pay in a particular air market.
Consumers don't realize that the breakthroughs in airframes with carbon fiber tubes and high efficiency engines are in part absorbed by the unions to increase their pay. This is why in some cases fares appear to rarely change even though it is cheaper for the airline.
On the flip side, many pilots are also part of an ANG unit. Many of them will step away from their commercial flight work to perform service in the military. I am familiar with ANG pilots who took time off from their airline work and flew with airlifts in and out of Afghanistan.
FWIW: In most companies, posting a pay stub publicly is usually grounds for termination.
since AA and WN were very early customers for the MAX and neither of their pilots are part of ALPA, I'm not sure how your argument works.
Unions did succeeding in pushing for salaries to go up for the two remaining pilots when aircraft went from 3 to 2 pilots, eliminating any economic benefit.
and larger aircraft are almost always more economical per passenger than smaller models so the MAX didn't trailblaze anything in that...
since AA and WN were very early customers for the MAX and neither of their pilots are part of ALPA, I'm not sure how your argument works.
Unions did succeeding in pushing for salaries to go up for the two remaining pilots when aircraft went from 3 to 2 pilots, eliminating any economic benefit.
and larger aircraft are almost always more economical per passenger than smaller models so the MAX didn't trailblaze anything in that regard.
and the MAX has one of the lowest carbon fiber ratios of current production aircraft. Among narrowbodies, the A220 is the highest
Any pilot who chooses to fly the Boeing 737 Max, deserves every penny of his salary. His therapists and life insurance bills must be enormous.
U.S. Military aviators may not take home as much hard cash, but the adrenaline rush beats anything which ‘driving an air taxi’ can serve up.
If posting a pay stub publicly is grounds for termination, that kind of termination is grounds for an easily winnable lawsuit basically anywhere in the United States.
Look up National Labor Relations Act and a variety of state level legislation. Most companies don’t like when you do it, but unfortunately for them, it’s illegal to terminate someone for doing it.
The only thing that is questionable is why someone would think that it makes any sense to post their actual pay in such detail for the public.
it would be far more informative to see the pay breakdown for a first year AA first officer to see the difference that a decade plus of experience makes.
as for the reason US commercial pilots make so much, unions are part of it but ALPA has also...
The only thing that is questionable is why someone would think that it makes any sense to post their actual pay in such detail for the public.
it would be far more informative to see the pay breakdown for a first year AA first officer to see the difference that a decade plus of experience makes.
as for the reason US commercial pilots make so much, unions are part of it but ALPA has also done a pretty good job of limiting the supply of pilots including by getting the gov't to impose the 1500 hour requirement on as many pilots as possible.
and let's put pilot salaries in the perspective of the emergency autoland feature of a King Air that recently happened.
ALPA will fight tooth and nail but there will be airlines elsewhere in the world that will have single pilot ops - in cargo and long range cruise - and then expand it to other phases of flight and categories.
Airbus and Boeing could convert the A350 and B787 to single pilot ops for part of the flight tomorrow if they got the green light. The end of the 737 and A320 will come when the potential to have single pilot domestic passenger ops.
This could be the last golden era of earnings for pilots.
Frame that picture.
Tim,
Agree on the first statement.
This golden era claim has been made for 40 years. Post 9/11 was certainly not a golden era of earnings, or QOL. Many pilots lost livelihoods, marriages, and a few suicides during this time.
That emergency auto land that Ben and G*ry Leff have latched on to is a last resort, highly “parameterized”, controlled, piece of automation. It’s like saying “See, my car hit the brakes on its own!...
Tim,
Agree on the first statement.
This golden era claim has been made for 40 years. Post 9/11 was certainly not a golden era of earnings, or QOL. Many pilots lost livelihoods, marriages, and a few suicides during this time.
That emergency auto land that Ben and G*ry Leff have latched on to is a last resort, highly “parameterized”, controlled, piece of automation. It’s like saying “See, my car hit the brakes on its own! I don’t need to drive!”. It shows how ignorant travel bloggers are about the piece of machinery they’ve made their livelihoods on criticizing. EASA put an immediate end to their single pilot exploration. Why? Because of safety. No fanfare, no “let’s get some more data”, just an indefinite suspension. I believe it’s because the world is coming up to a crisis of competency, and everyone keeps trying to remove safety barriers for the sole reason of cost.
The insatiable need for corporations to reduce the labor line item cost on a spreadsheet, at the expense of safety, will always continue. I get it. Line must go up. But these bloggers? I don’t know why they support it. I can only assume they say such ignorant things for clicks.
And no, Boeing and Airbus could not convert it tomorrow, or even in a year. There’s an immense amount of reDUNNdancy that goes into aircraft systems, not even including the infrastructure on the ground. Ask the airlines if their insurance would decrease, or astronomically skyrocket, if single pilot ops came tomorrow. As part of my business, I’ll tell you, it’s the latter.
People will yell about Boeing’s poor automation after the Max incidents, and in the literal same breath, ask to remove the human element from the equation. Truly baffling.
feel free to post average US (esp. big 3) pilot total compensation and I would bet that right now is the peak for compensation for airline pilots.
DL led the industry in raising pilot salaries post covid knowing that the supply was limited enough that other airlines had to match and also spread it to non-pilot staff to keep the pilot/non-pilot compensation percentage in balance. AA, UA and WN largely matched with varying degrees of...
feel free to post average US (esp. big 3) pilot total compensation and I would bet that right now is the peak for compensation for airline pilots.
DL led the industry in raising pilot salaries post covid knowing that the supply was limited enough that other airlines had to match and also spread it to non-pilot staff to keep the pilot/non-pilot compensation percentage in balance. AA, UA and WN largely matched with varying degrees of impact to the earnings statements - with UA still not having lifted FA and mechanic salaries. Other LCCs and ULCCs are choking hard on higher labor costs.
As for partial automation of commercial cockpits in order to allow single pilot ops for at least part of the flight, it is going to happen and it is naive to think that computers can't duplicate the thought process and reactions of humans and could potentially do it faster and safer.
ALPA is very powerful in the US but other countries have far less powerful unions and strong economic reasons to push single human pilot ops for at least part of a flight, including in long range cruise where most airlines now have up to 4 pilots watching the plane fly itself.
it is a guarantee that someone will go first and it won't be with fully automated landings but the technology does exist and Airbus and Boeing could start converting their current new generation aircraft to single pilot ops if they got the go ahead.
Feel free support the claim YOU made. Real earnings were superior relative to prices in the early deregulation era. Nominal earnings are higher today. But purchasing power 100k in 1975 is not nearly what 250k gets you today.
The issue is not whether partial automation can do the "job" or not. The crux is safety. Do you really trust 1 person up there? Germanwings, MH370, as well as medical emergencies play a role in that...
Feel free support the claim YOU made. Real earnings were superior relative to prices in the early deregulation era. Nominal earnings are higher today. But purchasing power 100k in 1975 is not nearly what 250k gets you today.
The issue is not whether partial automation can do the "job" or not. The crux is safety. Do you really trust 1 person up there? Germanwings, MH370, as well as medical emergencies play a role in that calculus. Even eliminating that, automation excels in the mundane and the redundant. But as of now, and most likely the next decade or 2, automation is dangerously inept at dealing with malfunctions, novel situations, and dynamic issues. It also cannot be held accountable. Again, this is where the C-suite gets nervous. In the event of an incident, who's to blame? The coders, manufacturer, ATC, the exec who signed off on the program? Even military UAVs, with very specific training pathways, have higher accident rates than manned aircraft. Global corporations aren't ready for that.
The pilots are not there to watch the plane fly itself. This is one of the biggest misconceptions in the avionics and aviation world. The pilot dictates to the automation how to fly the plane. What speeds, direction, and altitudes to hold. The automation and avionics, does not, and cannot make those decisions. Additionally, the pilot is there to deal with emergency situations that automation does not fix. Automation is there to improve workload and reduce fatigue, not replace command authority.
Claims that pilotless operations are inevitable rely on technological determinism rather than current reality. While this may emerge eventually, today’s technology, and (some may argue more importantly), the legal and safety frameworks, are not sufficient to support safe, accountable pilotless flight.
you may be right that early deregulation salaries were higher adjusted for inflation than now but that environment was not sustainable and nearly all of the legacy industry has gone through chapter 11 in order to cut costs; it is now the low cost and ultra low cost carriers that can't make it - unheard of pre-covid. I still believe that legacy carrier pilots are at or near the peak of what they will make...
you may be right that early deregulation salaries were higher adjusted for inflation than now but that environment was not sustainable and nearly all of the legacy industry has gone through chapter 11 in order to cut costs; it is now the low cost and ultra low cost carriers that can't make it - unheard of pre-covid. I still believe that legacy carrier pilots are at or near the peak of what they will make because automation and oversupply due to a collapse of low fare carriers will put downward pressure on wages. The airline industry has long been heavily unionized and had much higher than average labor costs.
and there will be people that will yell "safety' to prevent progress but the simple fact is that commercial airplanes at cruise are largely flying themselves based on what has been programmed.
reducing the number of pilots on long range cruise WILL be the first place for automation to eliminate pilot jobs. There will still be 2 pilots on the aircraft and still have a ground-based pilot to take control if necessary.
Germanwings and MH370 (assuming it was pilot murder suicide) could not have happened if there were a ground-based pilot and the automation to support it.
the weakest link in aviation is the fact that ATC communications and between pilots worldwide is still almost entirely done by voice. It is entirely possible that the overhaul of the US ATC system could well involve reworking this paradigm which could be done worldwide.
moving from voice to data communications is the most important thing that has to be done to automate cockpits.
Tim,
Agreed on the sustainability of post-deregulation airlines. However it wasn't due to salaries, it was due to profitability and navigating a new market environment. Companies don't agree to a pay rate that would put them out of business. Look at Spirit. Massive concessions, and still bleeding. Cabin crew and pilots could fly for free, and still they would bleed cash.
"commercial airplanes at cruise are largely flying themselves based on what has been...
Tim,
Agreed on the sustainability of post-deregulation airlines. However it wasn't due to salaries, it was due to profitability and navigating a new market environment. Companies don't agree to a pay rate that would put them out of business. Look at Spirit. Massive concessions, and still bleeding. Cabin crew and pilots could fly for free, and still they would bleed cash.
"commercial airplanes at cruise are largely flying themselves based on what has been programmed." By who? Again, automation is supervisory, not autonomous. Someone, somewhere, makes the decision. Replacing onsite, real time redundancy with someone else does nothing except shift the authority to OUTSIDE the aircraft. Again, to who? A pilot on the ground or ATC, for what purpose? All this does is add a layer of complexity and opportunity for miscommunication.
"reducing the number of pilots on long range cruise WILL be the first place for automation to eliminate pilot jobs. There will still be 2 pilots on the aircraft and still have a ground-based pilot to take control if necessary." This backs up what I'm saying. Remove a pilot from the cockpit, and make them work from the ground thousands of miles away for what. You now have 2 tired pilots and 1 pilot (presumably) working multiple flights from far away. Adding complexity for the sake of cost-cutting.
Regarding Germanwings, a ground based pilot would override the flying pilot? Who has ultimate authority, the person who's blood will actually spill in an accident, or the displaced figure? How does that work? Automation will override a pilot's input, but what happens when automation malfunctions? Too bad for the people on board I guess. Beating a dead horse here, all this does is take command-authority out of the aircraft, and for no reason.
My line of work deals with legal matters in the aviation industry, specifically avionics. There is little appetite among OEMs, insurers, or executives to remove pilots due to legal, safety, and financial risk. Only cost-focused discussions at some non-legacy airlines explore it, and even there it rarely survives a cost/benefit analysis. The debate online appears driven less by "safety" and more by resentment toward pilot pay. The funny thing is, people like Ben and Gary Leff had nothing to say about this before the pilot hiring wave. And the ironic thing is, it's been cheaper for people like Ben, and myself, to fly first class across the ocean than it was 15 years ago, despite his belly-aching about wages. Half their articles now are complaining about cheap upgrade prices and not being FREE!
Bottom line: everyone is arguing to remove pilots only to replace them with other, more complicated systems, because someone posted their pay (in a sea of thousand other crazy salaries).
it is obvious that you desperately want to protect the status quo and limit progress- which probably says you are a commercial pilot or involved in lobbying for them.
There were people at AA and UA's HDQs that knew what was happening on 9/11 but were powerless to do anything about it.
It would be a step up in safety - in extraordinary circumstances - to take control of a plane on the ground...
it is obvious that you desperately want to protect the status quo and limit progress- which probably says you are a commercial pilot or involved in lobbying for them.
There were people at AA and UA's HDQs that knew what was happening on 9/11 but were powerless to do anything about it.
It would be a step up in safety - in extraordinary circumstances - to take control of a plane on the ground and have it land either automatically or by a person on the ground. The fact that you can't see that reality while arguing for "safety" shows how deeply some of you want to limit progress.
the simple reality is that the cruise phase of flight is the result of planning and input that does not require two humans to be actively involved in monitoring the plane doing what it was told. On long range commercial flights, there could be backup pilots removed with no degradation to safety.
and ground based pilots are not subject to time zone issues and can supervise multiple normally operating flights and shift their attention to a single very rare event if necessary.
The notion that there should be thousands of backup pilots occupying crew rest cabins and extra cockpit seats just because that is the way aviation has worked for decades is nothing but obstructionism.
nobody bellyaches about paying people high salaries to do something well... the comments here show that.
there are alot of people that get upset at the effort some people put into limiting progress if it allows greater efficiency
I'm not a young man but I expect commercial ops with less than 2 pilots on the flight deck to become reality in my lifetime.
You are free to your opinion and to work to maintain the status quo.
90% of what you've stated is not just false, but shows you're out of your expertise. I also tire of assertations that are not grounded in any sort of experience. If you read my post, I'm not a pilot, nor a lobbyist. Legal stuff for avionics, without getting much more specific.
"there are alot of people that get upset at the effort some people put into limiting progress if it allows greater efficiency"
...
90% of what you've stated is not just false, but shows you're out of your expertise. I also tire of assertations that are not grounded in any sort of experience. If you read my post, I'm not a pilot, nor a lobbyist. Legal stuff for avionics, without getting much more specific.
"there are alot of people that get upset at the effort some people put into limiting progress if it allows greater efficiency"
Likewise their are a lot of people (like myself) that get upset at the effort people go to in order to reduce labor costs, even if it compromises safety.
Disagreeing with reduced pilot counts in a cockpit isn’t “protecting the status quo.” Aviation is conservative because it’s safety critical. Commercial aviation is not a technology proving ground. It is the end-user of years of development, study, and testing to make sure people's lives aren't being gambled away. Moreso, most major advances in the last 3 decades (fly by wire, auto land, TCAS, CRM) were driven by pilots and engineers. Skepticism is how unsafe ideas are stopped, not how "progress" is blocked. You've made the bold claims that removing pilots from the flight deck will result in safer aircraft. You haven't proven it, and I've shown you that unmanned aircraft have a significantly higher rate of accident.
Invoking 9/11 does not support your argument. Building permanent override capabilities would introduce new risks (cybersecurity and data-link failures) that don't pose catastrophic issues currently. This is not a hypothetical. If Iran can hack a high-end, very secret UAV, there is a very serious threat that you've introduced in the name of cost-cutting disguised as "progress". Airlines, and Air Lines, still have technological meltdowns today, no need to add more complexities into the mix.
Centralizing control on the ground increases complexity and creates new single points of failure. Human factors research also shows that supervising many aircraft and “zooming in” during rare events does not scale reliably. Dispatchers are swamped during IROPS. A single weather event over a busy airport swamps ATC, air line dispatch, and they aren't even responsible for flying the plane.
Again, cruise flight is not “set and forget.” It is not nap-time for the working pilots or cabin crew or dispatcher. Part of the avionics package requirements is that it MUST be monitored, as even small issues arise in these advanced electronics. And then what happens during a divert, a medical emergency halfway across the pond, weather, geopolitical issues, etc. Many high consequence events can occur in cruise, and pilots are there to manage ambiguity and time critical decision making. Runaway trim is a death sentence if not reversed within seconds. There's a note that we are required to write in most checklists and systems manuals. "This is not a suitable replacement for sound pilot judgement" or "use good judgement when multiple malfunctions occur".
Extra pilots are not tradition or make-work. They exist to manage fatigue, incapacitation, and workload spikes. Removing redundancy requires clear proof of greater safety, not just higher efficiency. And so far, as I've mentioned, major Aviation Authorities have proven that we are not anywhere close to that. Reduced pilot operations may happen someday, but dismissing legitimate safety concerns as obstructionism isn’t an argument, it's handwaving, and disrespectful to those whose blood have written the rules.
I don't really care about pilot salaries, I care about my own, but I do care about safety. And I grow tired of people like Ben, Gary Leff, and now you spouting off absolute garbage.
what you really mean is you don't like people thinking and questioning the status quo.
Every. Single. One. of your supposed arguments about safety being a reason not to automate functions which I suggest can be answered exactly opposite of what you say.
and, for the 44000th time, nowhere did I advocate for pilotless longhaul international flights. I have said there is a legitimate reason to consider reducing the amount of pilots necessary through automation...
what you really mean is you don't like people thinking and questioning the status quo.
Every. Single. One. of your supposed arguments about safety being a reason not to automate functions which I suggest can be answered exactly opposite of what you say.
and, for the 44000th time, nowhere did I advocate for pilotless longhaul international flights. I have said there is a legitimate reason to consider reducing the amount of pilots necessary through automation and ground-based backups.
You are absolutely protecting the status quo and, yes, you are tired.
I'm going to respond to your lazy and insulting post with one question: where's your proof that removing real-time redundancy improves safety?
You want to come here and spout your garbage as truth, and get mad when someone with significantly more experience calls you out. You framed pilot salaries based off one borderline GA autoland, and ignored what I thought was a good safety discussion.
Calling skepticism of your layman's understanding of aviation safety...
I'm going to respond to your lazy and insulting post with one question: where's your proof that removing real-time redundancy improves safety?
You want to come here and spout your garbage as truth, and get mad when someone with significantly more experience calls you out. You framed pilot salaries based off one borderline GA autoland, and ignored what I thought was a good safety discussion.
Calling skepticism of your layman's understanding of aviation safety “protecting the status quo” is a lazy dodge. In aviation Tim, skepticism is the mechanism that prevents unsafe, or unproven, ideas from reaching passengers. The burden of proof is on the person proposing to remove redundancy, not on those insisting it stay until safety is demonstrably improved.
You keep saying every safety concern can be answered “exactly opposite,” yet you don’t actually do that. This is the equivalent of a childish "no you" comeback.
You've finally reared that ugly TD head of yours when you don't get your way. What a pathetic post you've made.
I really agree with most of your points, but where is Ben latching onto the recent emergency autoland incident?...
Taken in a vacuum, yes this looks ridiculous, but consider this. A pilot will spend years gaining the certifications and experience, at great expense, to even be considered for a paying pilot job. Pilots not working for "major" airlines typically make much, much less. By way of comparison, at least when I was working the regionals in 2003, a first officer's earnings on the turboprops were barely above the poverty level, and though there has...
Taken in a vacuum, yes this looks ridiculous, but consider this. A pilot will spend years gaining the certifications and experience, at great expense, to even be considered for a paying pilot job. Pilots not working for "major" airlines typically make much, much less. By way of comparison, at least when I was working the regionals in 2003, a first officer's earnings on the turboprops were barely above the poverty level, and though there has been some modest improvements, green regional pilots are still making Walmart manager wages. It takes pilots years to finally get the call up to the Majors. Remember too, pilots are under strict medical scrutiny, with a long list of maladies that wouldn't slow down the typical person, but can end his career without warning. On top of that, a pilot must retire at age 65. No doubt pilots make great money, consistent with the complications and gravity of their job, but it's important to keep things in context. Piloting a complex machine full of humans in an extremely hostile environment is a very specialized skillset that takes years and money to acquire. I think they've earned it.
You mean, like virtually every career path out there in which most MIGHT make $200K at the end of their climb? Sorry, $500K for an airline pilot is pure absurdity. It results in consumers footing the bill for this robbery in the end. I'm of the old school Herb Kelleher philosophy that "Pilots would fly for free if they had to as they love it so much." Good for their unions I guess and the...
You mean, like virtually every career path out there in which most MIGHT make $200K at the end of their climb? Sorry, $500K for an airline pilot is pure absurdity. It results in consumers footing the bill for this robbery in the end. I'm of the old school Herb Kelleher philosophy that "Pilots would fly for free if they had to as they love it so much." Good for their unions I guess and the messaging in having executives, shareholders, and the public thinking otherwise. They clearly did a great job in fooling everyone.
When they all go bankrupt in the next dramatic economic downturn keep the pilots in your prayers who will actually be blamed for the demise of the industry. Along with the executives who were foolish enough to fall into this trap.
You'll get paid more when there is scarcity at your position or when you require specialized training.
Only thing now is, FA's may see this and think they should make a fourth or a third of what pilots make lol.
Basically pilots are paid for production. I saw a report on pilot compensation in the 1920s. Their pay was based on the size and speed of the plane flown. Effectively the more "seat miles"--a term still used by airlines--produced the greater the compensation. It was then up to management to sell those seats.
Lol at anyone who thinks $500k is a good salary.
A freaking data scientist at Pinterest makes $600k. Fully remote job, individual contributor (not management), leetcode easy interview questions. Then the actual job is SQL monkeying. Same thing at DoorDash and Meta and these places don’t even ask leetcode.
The average partner at Skadden makes $6 million and they are constantly being poached by Kirkland with offers of $10 million or more.
$500k was a...
Lol at anyone who thinks $500k is a good salary.
A freaking data scientist at Pinterest makes $600k. Fully remote job, individual contributor (not management), leetcode easy interview questions. Then the actual job is SQL monkeying. Same thing at DoorDash and Meta and these places don’t even ask leetcode.
The average partner at Skadden makes $6 million and they are constantly being poached by Kirkland with offers of $10 million or more.
$500k was a good salary in the 1990s, which is probably when a bunch of us in this comment section were born. It’s still a good salary in the middle of the country, which is probably where a bunch of us aren’t keen on traveling. If you like to live an upper middle class lifestyle in a major coastal metro and travel to places with Fine Hotels and Resorts you need at least $2 million a year.
More nonsense from the Arps in hiding, luv your bragging post darlink …. Xxxx
Yawn….first, your job is boring. Second, most of us have side gigs like real estate development that put us easily into seven figures. Third, you work a lot more than we do and we actually enjoy what we do.
….. furthermore Jeff, I’m betting that our offshore equity holdings are unobtainable to the likes of the bragging Arps clone/ clown, yes?
If you think they don't deserve it, go ahead and learn that skill and get the job. With an increase in eligible pilots, salaries will come down. That's part of the reason the salary market is bearing this price.
If they "deserve" it or not, everyone can decide for themselves. What I do find odd is that pay is so much higher compared to other western countries, and that there is so much variance based on the type of aircraft flown. Becoming type rated on aircraft A does not take three times as much/long as aircraft B.
Why does my 777 counterpart make so much more than my 737 self?
This is generally a function of seniority. A new captain at a major airline will not be operating international lines on widebody aircraft in a domicile of your choice.
So a bus driver should be paid a lot more or even a truck driver as they statistically kill more?
Good for them. Pay them $100M for all I care. When they are flying me and my love ones, I want the best.
Getta loada Mr. Moneybags ova’ere!
Justin …. seriously, if you want the best stay off U.S. airlines and out of their airspace, yes?
So you want your Uber driver to make $100M because they are transporting you and your family? Please, stop romancing the stone of airline pilots. Some training, some hours, some investment (like any career) and it's not that hard in the end.
Compare this to an "average" NFL QB, including starters and back ups, who are making maybe $5 or $10 million per season without the same level of responsibility. One makes a bad decision and they throw a pick 6 interception, the other 100+ people die.
The "average" career length for an NFL quarterback is 4 and a half years.
At the end of each of their careers, the pilot will make close to what the "average" NFL quarterback will make.
I was thinking about the level of responsibility of each position. You are probably correct on the career earnings. Very true and good point!
I see comments about the cost of pilot training. A Google search will reveal flying schools in Europe charging the equivalent of two months of that guy's salary for the full airline pilot qualification, it really isn't a lot in the grand scheme of things (and presumably there'll also be cheaper options in Mexico, Brazil, Asia etc).
Good luck taking that European certification to the United States. Even if that was true, one does not simply step off the boat with a foreign equivalent of an FAA ATP certificate and climb into the right seat of an American Airlines airplane. He's gotta go through the same process as a U.S. trained pilot.
EASA and FAA have got bilateral validation and conversion processes in place, it sounds like the steps are mostly bureaucratic and don't involve any need for expensive airborne tests etc.
Presumably spending X hundreds of hours flying an A320 in Spain or the UAE is also duly recognised by the US airlines, unless of course they're blocked by dodgy union agreements
I congratulate these pilots. They spend time every year doing recurring training in addition to being on the "road" for days at a time, many working holidays and weekends. The pressure is real. The sacrifice is real. Hats off to these guys. As stated, the airline business has a "rocky" past in terms of layoffs, etc...If I were young, I would seriously consider the profession.
If you think that is overheating then check it this guy Darren Byrd on YouTube.
He breaks down exactly how much he makes on each trip in detail. How many hours x hourly pay, per diem paid, extra paid for international flight, how much is contributed to his 401k, etc.
How he games the pilot scheduling system at American to make the most and work the least.
Given the amount of money they put out for flight training not to mention the time they're well worth the pay. Better than some C level imbecile that spends their day spouting the latest LinkedIn language. Pilots actually do something real.
Although not sure posting one's income on Reddit is a particularly wise move.
Pilots also go into ALOT of debt for flight school, and have NO idea what the environment will be coming out of it...they work for regionals for PENNIES for a LONG time, and then a limited amount make this amount. The COMPANY makes BILLIONS, and we have people fighting over if employees should get paid as much as they were able to negotiate, which ends up being nothing compared to UPPER management. It PROVES the value of unions.
"they work for regionals for PENNIES for a LONG time"
hasn't been true in years now
Expecting remuneration to be rational is like expecting airfares/award redemptions to be rational. So my "take" on this news is... it's a game and this is how they're currently doing. I'm definitely NOT envious.
I think this is one of the reasons why US carriers cannot provide quality service. Middle Eastern and Asian carriers who are considered top-notch pay their pilots less than a half of that. Then, they can invest more on the inflight service.
...Meanwhile in the US, some flight attendants are so underpaid that they are eligible for food stamps. How can they provide "service" when they're not paid any better than at waffle house?
I think this is one of the reasons why US carriers cannot provide quality service. Middle Eastern and Asian carriers who are considered top-notch pay their pilots less than a half of that. Then, they can invest more on the inflight service.
Meanwhile in the US, some flight attendants are so underpaid that they are eligible for food stamps. How can they provide "service" when they're not paid any better than at waffle house?
I don't mean US pilots should be paid like in the East(I know the cost of living is a lot higher in the US), but with this cost structure, I don't know how US carriers can enhance their service without raising the airfare significantly.
This is such a profoundly uneducated take. Youre mad about flight attendants but blame pilots? The reason why quality service doesn’t exist is because this the US. You should know the US folk think service is beneath them.
"...I don't know how US carriers can enhance their service without raising the airfare significantly."
A good starting point is paying senior management salaries that are inline with what their contributions actually are. Drop in the bucket? Sure. But it's a good starting point without having to gouge customers even more (the drip drip drip of fees) and/or paying even less to those who do the yeoman's work (FAs, cust service reps, etc. etc. etc.)....
"...I don't know how US carriers can enhance their service without raising the airfare significantly."
A good starting point is paying senior management salaries that are inline with what their contributions actually are. Drop in the bucket? Sure. But it's a good starting point without having to gouge customers even more (the drip drip drip of fees) and/or paying even less to those who do the yeoman's work (FAs, cust service reps, etc. etc. etc.). There are myriad ways to find money to enhance service; another easy win? Stop the stock buybacks.
US airlines made Billions in profits last year. Billions with a B. Not sure that they would need to take from their employees to have money to spend on service. Seems that not investing in service is more of a deliberate management spending choice.
There was a regular, recurting ad in the inflight magazines oh so many years ago - it said, "You don't get what you deserve - you get what you negotiate". Pilots are traditionally paid well, and the pilots at American (and Delta and United) have negotiated well.
Also - what you're able to command in pay in ANY profession has never been about "fairness" or "what you deserve". There are two general factors that come...
There was a regular, recurting ad in the inflight magazines oh so many years ago - it said, "You don't get what you deserve - you get what you negotiate". Pilots are traditionally paid well, and the pilots at American (and Delta and United) have negotiated well.
Also - what you're able to command in pay in ANY profession has never been about "fairness" or "what you deserve". There are two general factors that come into play:
1) The more difficult it is to replace you, the higher a salary you can command. As an HR rep, it is harder to find a qualified, experienced pilot and it takes about 3 months of training after hiring once you find one. Southwest received thousands of flight attendant applications in the one hour their window to apply was open, and training is 4 weeks. Ramp workers are trained in 1-2 weeks.
2) You make more $$$ in direct relationship with the amount of money your job produces. Pilots flying 777s can produce close to 500k in revenue for an airline in one flight (300 pax, $1,000 per ticket average, plus cargo). Pilot's equivalent of being a teacher - a flight instructor - produce maybe $300 in revenue per flight. Even thought flight instructors are " rare" and hard to replace, they only make about $30k - $40k per year.
Thanks, this seems like a very reasonable take.
I'd argue it's a similar story with doctors. Long and expensive education is required, therefore there are few doctors relative to demand, therefore individual doctors are well compensated, and those that bring the practice the most revenue get the highest compensation.
The thing is that "what you can negotiate" depends a lot on market conditions. If the US wanted cheaper healthcare and cheaper flights, all it would...
Thanks, this seems like a very reasonable take.
I'd argue it's a similar story with doctors. Long and expensive education is required, therefore there are few doctors relative to demand, therefore individual doctors are well compensated, and those that bring the practice the most revenue get the highest compensation.
The thing is that "what you can negotiate" depends a lot on market conditions. If the US wanted cheaper healthcare and cheaper flights, all it would have to do is invest in more medical schools and flight schools and subsidize doctor and pilot education. And/or, open the door wide to foreign doctors and pilots, rather than throwing up every possible obstacle to prevent them from coming here to work.
This is why I keep to myself. Absolutely no need to share my personal business.
I like hiding under a rock :D
Well, good for that particular pilot, but they are an outlier. Most crews make far less, and the career paths can vary wildly. Thankfully, American and United and other airlines have robust unions fighting for all their members. Delta’s pilots union has been around since 1934! If only their flights attendants, baggage handlers, and maintenance technicians would organize, then, not only could they still enjoy profit-sharing, but also have greater job protections, which is especially...
Well, good for that particular pilot, but they are an outlier. Most crews make far less, and the career paths can vary wildly. Thankfully, American and United and other airlines have robust unions fighting for all their members. Delta’s pilots union has been around since 1934! If only their flights attendants, baggage handlers, and maintenance technicians would organize, then, not only could they still enjoy profit-sharing, but also have greater job protections, which is especially important during economic downturns, mergers, etc.
Where’s @Tim Dunn to tell us otherwise that FA’s should save their dues and get a gaming console or whatever the propaganda line was?
@1990 your pro Union comments are as predictable and boring as Tim Dunn's flogging of all things Delta.
We get it, you like unions.
Yes Johhny, ninetyben’s comments are “Predictable” …. it comes with the territory.
And what does an AA Eagle Pilot make - $25K per year? Your life if in their hands, just like the $500K per year pilots.
@ Randy -- They used to get paid peanuts, but not anymore. Now starting pay for a regional pilot is six figures:
https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/regional/envoy_air
Envoy captains? Sure, it's definitely possible. Envoy first officers? Not quite.
Consider also, Envoy is effectively at this point the American Airlines "minor league" team, offering a direct pipeline to American mainline. This is not the case when you're working for, say, Mesa. This also allows Envoy to be quite a bit more selective, so your chances of walking in the door from your CFI gig are slim.
Yes, pay is better then it...
Envoy captains? Sure, it's definitely possible. Envoy first officers? Not quite.
Consider also, Envoy is effectively at this point the American Airlines "minor league" team, offering a direct pipeline to American mainline. This is not the case when you're working for, say, Mesa. This also allows Envoy to be quite a bit more selective, so your chances of walking in the door from your CFI gig are slim.
Yes, pay is better then it was back when I was working the regionals, but the cost of living is damn near double what it was. Increasing regional FO pay was a necessity to keep your pilots from having to take on second or third jobs just to survive, which compromises safety.
Yeah, no thanks.
I want my flight crew well rested and well compensated.
Another comment did the math and came up with about 5 bucks per passenger to pay this captain. Charge me 12 and give the guy a cool Million! Just get me back on the ground safely before you cash your check.
They get compensated in flight hours. The only reason they are at a regional is to build time (hopefully that transfers to experience) so that they can move to a major. That is one thing this article got correct. Time building in a part 121 jet, would have an insanely high cost if the pilot had to pay for it. In fact, during down cycles, there were some regional airlines and cargo feeders that charge...
They get compensated in flight hours. The only reason they are at a regional is to build time (hopefully that transfers to experience) so that they can move to a major. That is one thing this article got correct. Time building in a part 121 jet, would have an insanely high cost if the pilot had to pay for it. In fact, during down cycles, there were some regional airlines and cargo feeders that charge the pilot. So the combination of salary and valuable flight time is how they are paid.