Virgin Atlantic will soon be canceling its only route to China, and I can’t help but feel like this kind of reflects the bigger issue with Virgin Atlantic’s business model, and how the airline is at this point basically operating as a subsidiary of Delta.
Continue reading: Virgin Atlantic Cancels Shanghai Flights, Gives Up On Far East
Share your questions, experiences, and thoughts below.
The UK is the worst possible place for a Delta hub, the ultra-high taxes of which make UK carriers just about the worst choice for anybody not in the UK for connecting beyond Europe.
Sad to see it canceled. I had the most fun flight of my life on this route with Virgin. It was last Christmas Eve, and everyone was having a jolly time at the bar, passing around chocolates and chatting.
Additionally, this was one of the best redemptions to Asia.
I cant understand why virgin atlantic wont add at least medium haul or short haul flights in high demand markets in Europe. It doesnt have to be extensive, but at least offer some feeding traffic. It should have issues filling planes to Spain for example. Also, virgin can set up a hub at Manchester or EDI, since BA operates exclusively out of London. A hub in the north of the UK might be successful for those not wanting to connect through London.
I've wondered about this myself. Purely speculating . . . it might be that Virgin doesn't want to deal with EU regulation. Or, there might be an *understanding* not to undercut AF or KLM's intra-Europe networks.
They have medium haul from Tel Aviv.
Having feeder flights to and from Spain would mean trying to attract Spaniards to fly a British airline, or Americans to take a one-stop option rather than fly direct on US carriers, Iberia etc.
Not as easy as it sounds.
You'd think these 787s would be ideal for secondary cities in India like Chennai, Hyderabad, Ahmedabad, Kolkata etc. Fair bit of O&D and VFR traffic on both ends and the sweetener that they can offer a substantial US connection network.
I’ve got reward flights booked for next may! What are my options?? Is it possible I could get it changed to be feel they stop flying??
Virgins new partner SAS fly to PVG and they need a boost to make that route up to 7 days/week again.
Aside from the other comments here, I would add that Virgin would also need narrowbody aircraft to make the economics of "feeder" flights work. Which, in turn, means spending a lot of money.
Nothing wrong with Virgin being further integrated into the Delta JV and route map. They need to get the 787's refurbished so they can be more competitive product wise on the routes the 787 flies. No different than Delta having an inferior product on the A330CEO's and 767's.
The challenge for Virgin Atlantic is that it is a longhaul only, point to point airline in the hub of a major global competitor and one of the world's most important economies.
If there was any reason for VS to try PVG it was because of China Eastern is also a Delta equity partner but Chinese international travel to nearly all countries is way down.
The Air France/Delta/KLM/VS JV has helped VS across the Atlantic but they, just like every other airline including AA has to cut what doesn't work.
And VS is adding service to India reflecting the change in alignment of western economies.
As for the 787s, they are likely going to be removed from the fleet. There is no reason not to have a fleet of A330NEOs and A350-1000s if your longest flight is 12 hours for a plane that carries 260 passengers or 340 passengers for a 15 hour plane.
It's most likely all about slots. Unless Virgin somehow gets a bunch of slots at Heathrow (unlikely), they are limited in what they can do.
Snap, you should get an email shortly with more details but basically they have just credited back my miles and taxes & fees so act quickly if you want to change. Extract from my email;
“ Anyone booked to travel from 26 October 2024 will be offered a refund. You can refer to our Refund Policy here.”
The UK departure taxes are waived on connections though. And Paris and Frankfurt aren't exactly cheap either
Expect Virgin Atlanta to shortly announce new destinations like DTW, MSP, and SLC and help DL free up longhaul aircraft.
hello, guest and impersonator.
Delta perfected the hub and spoke system which is the business model that virtually all legacy and global airlines around the world operate.
Delta cannot fix VS' original business model which was to operate as a point to point longhaul widebody carrier at an airport that is also the home to one of the largest global carriers and an airport that is also highly slot restricted.
It is amazing that some people love to use the argument that AA can't get enough slots to compete at JFK - despite the fact that AA was the largest carrier at JFK just 25 years ago - and not see that is the same problem VS has.
Ben loves to stimulate conversation - and I love to give him page clicks where it makes sense to do so - but it says volumes that Delta has managed to build a network of airlines around the world in which Delta has invested and which not only extend Delta's network but also gives DL a major toehold in major global markets.
You have AeroMexico and Latam in Latin America, Air France/KLM and Virgin Atlantic in Europe, and Korean and China Eastern in Asia, all of which but the last are part of major joint ventures with Delta and China Eastern is not because China and the US do not have Open Skies which is a requirement for joint ventures.
And Air France/KLM plus incoming SAS do fly to China from Europe and Virgin Atlantic is supposed to start Seoul service. There may be little or no gap in VS' service to the Far East.
and since Ben mentioned DL's profitability, let's remember that there is nothing Delta has done including its equity positions in a half dozen global airlines that AA or UA - the only other 2 global airlines - could not have done.
But DL has led the global industry in creating enduring partnerships even as DL's financial metrics lead the global industry.
Delta is a minority shareholder in every one of its equity partners but it has input in all of those airlines and has created a network that no other airline has successfully done.
"it says volumes that Delta has managed to build a network of airlines around the world in which Delta has invested and which not only extend Delta's network but also gives DL a major toehold in major global markets."
The more accurate explanation of this is that Delta has always had to pay for its friends, a problem AA and United have not historically had.
If Air India can successfully ramp up their capacity in the next few years with their big fleet expansion, I don't think Virgin Atlantic will succeed in the Indian market neither. Relying solely on O&D market give them much less wiggle room.
and yet Delta manages to generate far more revenue and profits.
Perhaps the formula of investing in friends really does benefit the bottom line which is where all airlines should be focused.
It was called Little Red ; )
But yes, if they could get more Heathrow slots they certainly wouldn't be wasting them on feeder flights to Spain.
The Indian market is huge and growing and is at least split between the west and east and likely more aligned to the west esp. to the UK.
Indian airlines have an advantage in being able to overfly Russian airspace but that advantage is even more pronounced the further the flights are from India - which means AA and UA's flights are at a greater disadvantage than VS'.
And India does connect naturally and logically over LHR to the US and the DL/VS US and Canadian network on top of what AF/KL also offer.
DL can't do offer anything for the Far East so those flights require a strong partner on the other end for them to work for VS or a strong local market.
India and S. Africa have far more advantages for VS than China.
And let's not forget that traffic from China to multiple other countries is reduced as well.
and yet their newer invested partners are usually unprofitable... like VS. So if Delta is simply cooking the books and sustaining other carriers to boost their bottom line, it would surprise no one.
How can you just spew out nonsense all the time?
"If there was any reason for VS to try PVG it was because of China Eastern is also a Delta equity partner but Chinese international travel to nearly all countries is way down."
VS didn't "try" PVG, they've been running it for 25 years, well before Delta came into the picture.
The real problem w/ VS is that they're running those abominable 787-9s. No one wants to sit in a herringbone config like that for 10+ hours. Every single non-US route is 787-9, and even then a good chunk of North America is still serviced with 787s, including markets like SFO and LAX
the name is “Virgin Atlantic”… that’s all, still my fave airline and LHR-BLR direct may be the new lucrative route for VS
VS could add service to DL's interior US hubs but DL would then have to add capacity elsewhere on its global network to balance that out.
Given that DL has 14 widebodies coming (A359s and 339s) this year and 11 more in 2025, is retiring only a small number of 763ERs, and also will be converting the 9 ex-Latam A350s which are currently primarily high capacity transatlantic haulers that do best in the summer, DL has an enormous amount of capacity coming online in the next couple years.
Add in that the 350-1000s start in 2026 and DL is talking to Airbus about the 20 options that are part of the A350-1000 order and reportedly ready to convert them to 339s to extend the 339 order book into 2026 and beyond (when 763 retirements accelerate) and there likely is little reason for VS to take over DL flights to LHR if aircraft availability is an issue.
Add in that the 359s that DL are taking are configured and capable of 18 hour flights with a pretty low density and DL will be growing its presence in the Pacific given that it said on its recent earnings call that the Pacific is solidly profitable, they get a revenue premium to the industry now, and they are covering their cost of capital or what it takes to put expensive new aircraft in service.
There are markets east and south of the UK that VS can make work but China is challenging for everyone.
Being a largely point to point carrier in someone else's hub and to destinations that are hubs for carriers on the other end makes it hard for VS to expand unless there is a very large market in the UK or flights can be fed from the US.
Virgin Atlantic instead can now focus on more flights to the Indian Subcontinent. Cities in India, Bangladesh and Pakistan are crying out for more direct flights to London (and by extension, one stop flights to more cities North America).
“it’s sad how Virgin Atlantic has essentially been reduced to a Delta subsidiary.”
I suppose so, but from a passenger perspective Virgin flights are still very much Virgin in spirit. Still an excellent way to cross the… wait for it… Atlantic.
Herringbone for day flights is perfectly fine. Plus being able to stretch your legs and chill at the bar is nice. For east-bound overnights I agree though.
Yeah that’s my take too. Delta hasn’t ruined anything about Virgin, and in several ways they have helped them.
There's a difference between fine vs good. VS does have industry leading seats and other elements. The herringbone seats are holding them back.
The seats can be a distinguishing factor that elevates your product ahead of other carriers. Look at QSuites.
Virgin's 787 upper class is a product to be tolerated not enjoyed. It doesn't elevate their brand in the way it needs to be doing.
Jane,
you do realize that the financial performance of DL's equity partners impacts DL's income and balance sheet - and yet DL still is one of the most profitable airlines in the world, the highest revenue airline in the world, the most profitable US airline, and has the highest market cap?
DL is very much aware that there is risk in its equity investments but there are also huge benefits.
The profitability of DL's equity carriers as a group is somewhere between AA and UA - and significantly less than DL.
but because DL is a minority owner in all its equity partners, someone else is taking a bigger hit.
Just as AA could not sustain its money-losing Pacific operations and made cuts- even if losses have still not ended - and UA will repeat the money-losing capacity dumping it did on the Pacific last year, VS has to stem its losses.
Given that VS was down to one flight to the Far East which might be replaced by ICN and DL is growing its presence to Asia, the net-net to SkyTeam is unchanged in/to Asia regardless of what Ben writes.
I check-in Virgin and this route is often quite full both ways so a shame for it to be cut but virgin just can't seem to be profitable.
Their flights are often quite full and only really low loads during quite times but I have noticed it is now just about 40% Delta and a good 20% Air France-KLM Tickets on the flights.
All UK bases have recently had upselling training and the sales targets have been upped by 35% for the remaining quarters.
It's a shame as virgin is still a very good service airline but you can see Delta is getting very strict with the purse strings and virgin needs to make a profit this year or I imagine more cuts are to come.
Agree for passengers seated in PE and Y but J leave’s a lot to be desired. B787 an embarrassment (apart from the bar) F&B awful the LHR Clubhouse great but going downhill with the removal of the spa, pool table replaced by dining tables it’s just becoming a generic airline lounge. Staff great and they can see things are going downhill too, the cost cutting has gone on too long.
They've tried THREE times, and all of them failed miserably.
Virgin Sun (1998), then Little Red (2013), then FlyBe Connect (2019, which IINM didn't even get off the ground).
Why are you so repetitive? You incessantly spew the same lines about AA and UA, whom no one mentioned, on every post. Aside from finding new ways to fawn over DL, there's not a single fresh insight to your commentary.
Lot of saturation already Air India tested/tried many routes that did//did not work. Virgin Atlantic had service to Lahore that they cancelled due to not being profitable enough (maybe enough sales in economy class but not so for premium cabins)
What may be better is serving more USA cities such as Newark/Chicago/Texas and/or trying to make some sort of nonstop Australia service also work.
I doubt you see 40% DL and 20% AF/KL tickets to PVG
And it is not surprising that an owner is demanding performance and to cut losses. Branson brought DL onboard because DL knows how to run an airline while VS was a vanity project for him in an otherwise pretty well run business empire.
There is nothing "a shame" of expecting financial performance after billions of dollars of DL and Branson money.
And the fact that you see 20% AF/KL tickets shows how well the joint venture works.
as long as people want to talk about profitability including of DL's equity investments, it is absolutely relevant to talk about DL's competitors' profitability and what they invest in - or not.
DL is profitable enough that it can and has invest in a number of global airlines that happen to be weaker.
AA and UA spend the money they make sustaining their own loss-making routes.
And as noted above, there are indications that DL is making it clear to VS - one of its biggest investments - that it needs to produce.
the type of seat in Upper class might matter some but there are clearly bigger reasons including the lack of feed to/from the US which helps transatlantic and Africa/S. Asia/Middle East flights
"You have AeroMexico and Latam in Latin America, Air France/KLM and Virgin Atlantic in Europe, and Korean and China Eastern in Asia, all of which but the last are part of major joint ventures with Delta"
AeroMexico soon won't be either, as their joint-venture with Delta was revoked by the DOT, and the carriers have until October to fully unwind their immunized cooperation.
it said on its recent earnings call that the Pacific is solidly profitable
For now. Let's see what happens when the Chinese airlines start adding mass amounts of capacity again.
May not be for a while, but eventually they will. Then Delta and United won't be able to get away with charging $4500+ for premium economy anymore, let alone the outrageous (public) prices that they're asking for business.
and that is precisely why Delta has always had a strong and balanced domestic system; US carriers have always been able to count on the domestic market far more than international.
And I doubt if the Chinese airlines will add a bunch of seats because the Chinese people aren't traveling and the US, like most other countries, are not going to allow a large unbalanced aviation industry with China which would exist only to compete in the larger US-Asia/Pacific market.
China has far bigger levers to pull in its global economic efforts than high profile airline routes.
and if Asia/Pacific falls apart, UA would be impacted negatively much more so than DL or any other airline for that matter.
but I don't think that will happen
there has been no final ruling and DL said recently that it is hopeful that the DOT will consider other measures which the Mexican government also wants.
So, yeah, it is possible the AM/DL JV could be terminated but it is also very possible that there will be other actions.
It's not like US low cost or ultra low cost carriers have had success to Mexico City even when they were given the chance.
I always wonder why Virgin won’t tap into key European leisure markets seasonally, like Athens, Rome, Barcelona or Nice. Yes it’s served by many LCCs from London but only BA serve the high end market and their services on short haul European routes are close to garbage. Virgin’s 787/A350 economy seats are MUCH better than BA’s Club Europe, they certainly will win rich Londoner’s businesses at marginal differences. Not to mention Skyteam fans and Delta feeding traffic from across the Atlantic.
Yes. I'm aware. However, it certainly can be in delta's interest to artificially prop up operational income via higher RASM showing for their own fares via the JVs then account for the partner losses in the non-op section. If you look at their JV deals, their newer ones have a peculiar tendency for the partner to remain unprofitable... The Street often does care more about EBIDTA(R) than pre-tax
Their core problem LHR slots. It's not a matter of just simply starting service. They need to obtain slots and a schedule to work with their current routes.
and the fact that VS only operates widebodies.
They tried narrowbodies to feed their international routes but it didn't work and only makes sense if an intra-Europe flight generates more revenue and profits than longhaul international - which is highly unlikely to ever be the case.
Look at LH Group, it will happen there as well. They will reduce duplicate lanes and thus create a funnel where they control how you get to a place. Once they own TAP then u have 3 carrier literally controlling Europe excluding LCC. they did it for Cargo and they do it for PAX. APAC is next area they will work on.
The route map that you show is for the flight to use Russian airspace. Perhaps a newer flight route map would have been better. I do not completely agree with you regarding China demand. Flights on many airlines are charging a lot of money and are full and there is increased tourism with relatively new visa free policies.
VS probably provided one of the better business class experiences 10 years ago, but they failed to keep innovating while other airlines have caught up. Airline lounges have less value (even apart from the deteriorating state mentioned by others), and I think a lot of people prefer spending the least amount of time they can at the airport instead. I haven't had a "bad" crew on BA, and with their improved club seats, there really is no reason to fly VS when BA offers far better connectivity and flexibility (slot restrictions at play again).
How this airline is still alive while constantly bleeding money baffles me, on the other hand Italian airlines go completely bust in the blink of an eye with hardly any domestic competition
Aren't VS gonna be flying to Seoul as part of the Korean Air/Asiana merger deal?
You mentioned a lot of about their business model but don’t really offer much, Virgin should focus on Indian and Pakistan more, they are growing markets. I also think they may introduce routes back to China post the Russia and Ukraine conflict.
Virgin still are the best in terms of service I’ve experienced in the air, only second to business in ANA.
Thats sad i have enjoyed Virgin Airlines flights to Shanghai. They were also the cheapest airline over the last 6 months for that route and the cabin service was better than the competition. I hope they resume the service at some point
I just meant the ticket percentages in general being a large amount of Delta AF/KLM tickets. (Except the Orlando and Vegas which are mostly UK virgin tickets)
And it's only a shame because you can see Delta is pulling all the strings on everything and Virgin has little autonomy
For example:
If we get any Delta staff travel they are prioritised to get upper or premium over Virgin friends and family whereas on DL virgin staff are below AF/KLM on the priority list.
And the cost cutting is more against the very essence of the service like a small example being we used to hand out sweets at check-in and boarding etc but we don't anymore.
Our uniforms (Which is a massive part of Virgin and their image) although still Vivienne Westwood are made now made very cheaply with poor quality. With us at our airport genuinely having to have a sewing day every 2 months where one of the staff who's a good seamstress has to re-sew all the buttons that are falling off or the loose threads because any new uniforms items need approval from the airport duty manager. (My pants split and I had to pay for them to be repaired myself because I have to wait until 2025 to reorder as I still had 1 pair)
It's just a shame because yes virgin was a vanity project for RB but that was its appeal being "Sexy" and a bit "Flashy" whereas now it's Delta Red
And you should see the defects on the 330s with many having screens inop or upper class seats with no electric adjustment for months. (G-VWAG has had an inop upper class seat since the start of April)
You just can tell that Virgin will just be feeder for Delta and not really be its own airline as such.
Blink of an eye? Alitalia was losing money for years and years, state funded multiple times and went bust about 6 times. Hardly think it happened quickly!
Correct. CMA (UK antitrust authority), approved the merger subject to giving a slot pair to another airline who operates LHR to Seoul. The deal was with Sky Team partner Virgin. Basically KE will be funding somebody to compete with them... if the Virgin deal falls apart I am sure BA will offer to take their subsidy.
Its tough. There is a lot of Chinese airline capacity now compared to a decade ago when this route started (second tier cities and LGW). And Chinese airlines have the fuel economy advantage due to Russia. And the China demand is still lower than pre COVID. And Virgin has limited connectivity beyond destination on either end. It just doesn't make sense for them.
Singapore was in VS for a decade before DL. I think Singapore know how to run an airline, but they couldn't make it work. Branson didn't bring DL aboard... Singapore was selling their 49% stake. DL was following an airline equity investment strategy (like Etihad did) and saw an opportunity to gain further access to LHR relatively cheaply that they couldn't have done any other way as quickly. VS were super happy because they were desperate for connectivity beyond in the US. They had limited other options given BA/AA and their partnership with Continental was over after the UA merger.
Curious about your perception of Branson running a pretty successful business empire. How many successful Virgin businesses can you name (that Branson ACTUALLY owns)?
They have pulled out of a lot of those markets (eg Austin).
Australia is super difficult to make work. The length means you need multiple planes and multiple crews for daily round trips. High competition (price and service) from ME3.
DL hubs and premium leisure (Florida, Caribbean, Maldives, South Africa) are their best bet. They are managing to make India work, but suspect it is low yielding, with some business traffic, but also good for Delta connections from US as DL don't serve themselves.
I'd question the success of some of their equity investments. Or that they were a leader. Etihad started the equity investment trend and it ended a disaster for them. DL tried it but they stopped years ago.
Virgin has never managed to make money. OK route network and connections, but isn't an economical venture. No profit and DL has had to inject millions more.
Latam hasn't really been a success. It went bust months after the investment. The deal made very little strategic sense for Latam, other than finding a solution to its AA deal getting blocked by the regulator. DL did it to frustrate AA. Delta was supposed to build Miami for Latam given it was its most important market. DL didn't as they would have lost billions trying to break AA there. So they tried to persuade Latam to look at moving to Atlanta but that makes no sense for Latam. Terrible for Latam compared to their AA partnership. And with it they lost their alliance closeness with Iberia for Europe, albeit still codeshare partners.
Well and now they are on the war path with the customers impacted by the decision. Customer service only wants to offer a refund while UK Air passenger rights clearly stated a rerouting option. So I guess I am gonna take this with the ADR once again.
I'd like to see them consider reinstating flights to Australia, perhaps as an add-on from Singapore. Qantas is moving to its Project Sunrise with 21 hour flights to UK. I've done Perth to LHR in J at 17.5 hours and that felt too long. They do have the advantage of brand recognition from Virgin Australia
The term “Far East” is still in extremely wide use, (especially in British English) and carries no negative connotations. It corresponds to terminology used in many Asian languages, like Chinese.
Why get aggressive about an inoffensive word choice that many people still use commonly?
Turn right at London and the East awaits you, the world is not America only, The direct Virgin flight to Shanghai was one of the best and it will be a sad day when these flights stop. Back to BA, KLM and Lufthansa I guess and the obligatory connections at Hong Kong, Amsterdam or Frankfurt making what already was, a long flight was even longer!