On Sunday night, we saw an incredibly tragic accident at New York LaGuardia Airport (LGA), whereby an Air Canada Jazz CRJ-900 collided with a fire truck on the runway, killing both pilots, and seriously injuring many others.
Continue reading: Ugh: The Runway Lights That Should’ve Prevented The LaGuardia Tragedy
Share your questions, experiences, and thoughts below.
Amateur here. Why would the lights go off BEFORE the aircraft has passed instead of as it passes over or once it has passed?
Is it true that only One controller was handling both the landing jet and the ground control fire engine ?
How can he look to his right , and also look to his left , at the same time ?
Emergency vehicles on a call have a GPS system that overrides traffic signals automatically. I wonder if that system might also have been in play responding to the United emergency?
Also I am a bit skeptical about Duffy's claim regarding the number of controllers at LGA that evening. We need to better care for our ATC.
Ya no ARFF vehicle has a gps system that overrides runway stop lights lol. Cmon. I call BS on Duffy's comments too, if so WHY DID THAT CONTROLLER WORK ANOTHER 30 MINUTES after the incident.
Yes the one controller was working both ground and tower frequency, absurd. He continued to work for 30 minutes after too since there was no one to replace him.
From first reports about this collision, I pictured the fire truck stopped at the runway entrance asking for permission to proceed. Now, it's obvious Truck 1, leading the procession of other vehicles, was en route to the runway when permission to cross was sought, and even if they had "looked both ways," they could not brake in time. Reminds me of the schoolbuses and other vehicles that were (maybe still are) required to stop at every railroad crossing even if there was no signal indicating an oncoming train. Not required at airports, at least when an odoriferous 737 needs to be rescued.
You can see the red lights on in the video. The system was telling the fire truck to stop. They ignored it. There's no override.
Ben wrote something very prejudicial and not portraying the full situation. "he even admitted on frequency, “I messed up.' "
The Frontier Airlines pilot near the crash who saw it said that the controller did the best, in response.
When did the Air Canada plane see the truck and when did he do something? What did the truck do as far as maximum acceleration or braking? More info needed.
Mike my concern is another ground system could disrupt how the system was intended to work. Of course that's a theory for the investigation to solve. I can't help but imagine that investigation has a lot of moving parts at this time.
Bad conditions (rain, limited visibility). Overworked, understaffed ATC, late at night. Over-pressured companies (move the metal). United’s failure to maintain its aircraft, leading to the emergency vehicles dispatched. Yeah, there’s a lot here, and no one should’ve died. Awaiting NTSB’s report, hopefully FAA/DOT/Congress/everyone actually follows their recommendations; hope it never happens anywhere again.
By that time, the plane would be directly in front of you. My guess is that congestion and forcing ARFF to wait for a signal to clear when they are presumably heading to an emergency.
Had the pilots been listening to ATC and heard there was a fire truck on the runway, they could have avoided this. They are not “heroes”
I would not attack the deceased. Pilots are not on the same frequency as the emergency vehicles; that’s one of the issues. Maybe they should make operational changes. Some pilots (like Captain Steeeve) have advocated for changes like that. Might’ve made a difference here and with the DC midair from last January. Or not. Won’t know for sure.
Fire trucks don't talk to Air Traffic Control. The pilots' job (while landing) was to listen to the Tower while landing their aircraft. They could also listen to any other aircraft at the airport who were communicating with the tower, but they would not have been (and should not have been) listening to any other frequency for ground vehicles.
Joe — you made an incorrect assumption of how ATC communications work and were incredibly disrespectful to the two deceased pilots. Any two pilots put in that situation would have had the same fate.
The decent thing to do would be to acknowledge you were wrong and apologize. And maybe think next time before you insult the character of people you don’t know in situations you don’t understand.
This, if true, breaks through all the chatter on this incident. LGA, in the rain, in the dark, had one single ATC, who was dealing with an emergency requiring dispatch of emergency services across the airfield, requested by a United pilot. USA has had serious problems with ATC staffing for years, under varying political leadership. Is there a plan that inspires confidence in the bipartisan flying public? Such a plan, if implemented by a Republican administration, must inspire confidence in all the flying public, so appointees must not be loyalists to one political party. Surely this isn't beyond the capabilities of the United States of America.
I assume there's sufficient government money available now, without delay or impediment, for employing the optimal number of ATCs. If there isn't, then a lively debate about priorities is in order.
If I’d just witnessed a fatality in my watch I’d also question whether it was because of something I did or if there was something else I could have done to stop it. I didn’t read Ben as blaming the ATC, but empathizing with what an awful situation to have been in.
Expecting a pilot to see the SIDE of a fire truck from thousands of feet is asking a lot. The only thing you can see are the runway lights. Everything else is black.
I wonder how much people trust those incursions lights. Maybe they come on 90 seconds before touchdown and during busy periods they’re basically always on. Or they turn on when they’re not needed. All it takes is a few false alarms for people to learn not to trust them. Esp if the tower gives permission.
From the NY Times:
At 11:37 p.m. on Sunday, when the accident occurred, two controllers were working in the LaGuardia tower, according to [two persons] briefed on the matter, both of whom spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly.
One controller was talking to a fire truck that was en route to assist a United Airlines jet, which had reported a foul odor that was sickening flight attendants, according to audio recordings of the air traffic controller communications. As the controller was clearing the fire truck to cross a major runway, an Air Canada jet was landing on the same runway. It crashed headlong into the fire truck, killing the jet’s two pilots and injuring a number of passengers.
At the time of the accident, both controllers were working two positions at the same time, these people said, reflecting the thin staffing that is typical at that time of night because of the relatively light traffic at the airport.
Those controllers were in a “mid,” or midnight, shift configuration, said one of the people briefed on the matter. At LaGuardia, that shift typically stretches from about 10:30 p.m. to 6 a.m., the National Transportation Safety Bureau chair, Jennifer Homendy, said at a news conference Monday evening. She added that it wasn’t clear how long those controllers had been on shift at the time of the accident.
An additional two controllers were elsewhere in the building, but were not in the “cab,” or control room of the tower, at the time of the accident, said the two people who were briefed on the matter.
Also:
For the midnight shift at LaGuardia, it is standard operating procedure to have only two controllers on duty performing the duties of multiple operators, said Jennifer Homendy, the NTSB chairwoman. This has been a concern for the agency’s air traffic control team for years, she said.
Speaking as an airline pilot, I can tell you that we are trained to treat those lights as sacrosanct. If we receive an ATC clearance to enter or cross a runway and those stop bars are illuminated, we hold short of the runway and query the controller.
At news conference, NTSB chair Jennifer stated that it is normal to have only two ATCs working at the tower during that night/ graveyard shift. One handles traffic on the ground while the other focuses on traffic in the air. But she did not know who was doing what at the time of accident. The NTSB has recommended a new approach but it has not been implemented. She also mentioned that the fire truck did not have a transponder for the alert system. Based on the info we know so far, the ATC and fire truck driver were negligent. The driver failed to watch both ways before crossing the street, even after the ATC green lit. We, adults, teach kids how to cross the street and must know better how to travel safely on land. All levels of governments are now in red. Yet, the federal government prioritizes waging foreign wars and bombing/ shooting drones on foreign countries above all domestic programs. I take a different view on ATC staffing shortage. I know in medical professions, the associations impose strict limits on admission of medical students and training of medical interns, so that their members can earn maximum salaries the market can bear. It is fair to assume that such policy spreads to all other white collar professions. After the pilot and the first officer died in the accident, who will be liable and disciplined for the two fatalities, if any? If so, such individual shall never be allowed to work in the same profession and capacity any longer.
It would also be interesting to know the level of emergency these fire trucks were going to?
If it wasn’t urgent, was there an alternate perimeter road that would have allowed the vehicles to get to the other side, without crossing the runway, albeit taking a bit more time?
Yes, Jim, they do. In fact we can hear them talking to the tower to get clearance to cross runway 4.
A lot. They only come on for about 10 seconds before the plane crosses that particular intersection.
Ji - The pilots were young and stupid and made a stupid decision to land the plane with a fire truck crossing an active runway.
I’m sorry they died, but it does not change the fact that they were clearly the cause of the crash.
Because of timing. The lights go off about 1 to 2 seconds before the airplane gets there so the ARFF truck can start to go knowing they can't get on the runway that fast but beginning the crossing before it gets too close to the next plane.
Jim you are flat out wrong. There was a mistake made by the ATC, a mistake made by the ARFF truck crew, and the department of transportation is at fault for staffing levels. The only party not at fault in this incident are the Air Canada pilots. On an airfield planes ALWAYS have the right of way. It is ALWAYS the responsibility of the people on the ground to be aware of the planes because they are going too fast to make changes.
Well, there you have it. No need for an investigation, at this point, seeing as Jim has already got it all figured out. Brilliant work, really.
Jim,
First read my name.
Just curious do you suffer from some kind of dementia?
Now, read my name again.
What an absolute tragedy. I hope everyone involved in tragedy and their families and friends can somehow find peace.
My understanding is visibility was limited at the time. I’m not sure the driver could even see the plane when they entered the runway. And, even if they could, it’s hard to understand what you’re seeing: is it a big plane far away or an RJ about to hit you or a benign maintenance vehicle? None of us were there and it’s best not to assume what those involved could have/should have done until the report comes out.
Thank you. That was what I was curious about. Glad to know the system seems to work as designed. I ask bc there are so many examples of accidents happening bc warning systems were ignored bc those systems gave constant false alarms.
So doubling down on your terrible take instead of admitting you were wrong. You sound like a cool dude.
It rather looks as though the truck did brake (and veer to its left).
Perhaps because of the "Stop, Stop" from ATC.
Ironically if the truck had continued at full speed, it might have got beyond the aircraft's path in time.
Thatt does help explain why ATC gave permission to the truck - it wasn't a "next step in the process from static position" - it was "we're speeding with blue lights on, can we carry on across the runway?"
Seems to be at an acute angle to the aircraft so less easy to see behind square.
This is one time where I wish someone would circle what I'm supposed to be watching. It looks like a casino game.
Listening to a retired air traffic controller from NY on TV, he described a convoluted system.
Ground control has one audio, Air traffic controllers have another audio.
Therefore it is a back n forth communications between the two.
That doesn't seem right, nor effective to keeping everyone in the right place.
Maybe they could try putting in an underpass so that emergency vehicles don't need to stop at an active runway to get to an incident on the other runway. I live in Trondheim and we have a 4 lane highway going under the runway, so it can't be that hard.
I think the first problem is two controllers working under a highly abnormal stress load. Traffic was around double the usual level. I suspect they were going flat out to keep things moving, more so than usual.
Second, in the light of the above, no protocol was triggered/enacted to provide additional controllers.
Third, it appears that the active REL at red, was ignored, pointing to absence of an automatic fail safe eg in cab warning triggered at incursion attempt.
Fourth, one wonders about what safety training is given to personnel regarding runway activity, and how frequently it is refreshed.
With safety one should always bear in mind: " I you act in haste, you'll repent at leisure", "If it can happen, it will happen" ie be proactive in finding solutions.
I feel such a sadness for everyone involved especially the very young excellent pilots and their families.
I would note that in the midst of all of this tragedy, the controller stayed on his job for the next 15 minutes, guiding aircraft in the air who were on approach, guiding them away to safety. That shows his amazing professionalism at such a difficult moment. He also cleared ARRF to assist Air Canada. He didn't miss a beat. Incredible strength of character.
Please do not judge the fire crew. They were responding to a MAYDAY aircraft that was about to evacuate on a taxi way because the cabin air was unbreathable.
Let's all wait for the NTSB reports and say a prayer for everyone involved.
I have had questions about the role of the fire truck driver ever since the accident occurred. The runway entrance lights should have given the driver pause but it looks like he didn't slow down at all and I am assuming that he didn't look down the runway or couldn't see the plane barreling down on him. He may have relied entirely on the ATC clearance but why didn't he respond to the second command to stop. If the driver knew about the REL he may have thought he was given the clearance by ATC and the lights went out just before the plane arrived which may have given the driver the impression that everything was clear. I believe all drivers, including emergency vehicles, should be required to stop at the runway and obtain clearance before crossing the runway.
The summary of the CVR transcript shows that the Local Controller cleared the fire trucks to cross the runway on the tower frequency, which is the same frequency that the pilots were monitoring. The pilots should have immediately queried the controller when they heard that transmission, and if the fire trucks weren't immediately stopped prior to entering the runway, the pilots should have initiated a go-around. At least three mistakes already obvious: 1. The controller cleared the fire trucks to cross an active runway with landing traffic on short final; 2. The fire truck ignored the Runway Entrance Lights; 3. The pilots didn't process the radio call clearing fire trucks to cross the runway they were landing on. Likely several more causal factors involved. RIP to the crew involved.