An air traffic controller at San Francisco International Airport (SFO) gave a British Airways pilot the incorrect instructions, and then scolded him. If nothing else, this clearly reflects just how stressed out some air traffic controllers are, and how collectively bad we are at deescalation.
Continue reading: SFO ATC Makes Mistake, Scolds British Airways Pilot: “Know Your Aircraft”
Share your questions, experiences, and thoughts below.
The controller is way out of line. I’d have called the number she gave me and lodged a formal complaint about her shtty attitude.
Time to remove these obsolete humans from the controls.
JoeAmateur only proves they are just greedy dinosaurs refusing to go extinct.
The 77W doesn't turn on a dime. The BA pilots have every reason to question a last minute turn.
The controller needs to learn that, in training or not, admit you are wrong and de-escalate.
Absolutely correct bro, get the sick, lame, lazy, gobby and rude American ATC staff, need replacing with Russian, Iranian, North Korean or Chinese AI Bots.
That would sort out the problems …. NOT!
I feel super nervous whenever these things come to light. While I understand that they are edge cases that do not represent the norm, I feel like the problem is staring at all of us right in the face and it's only a matter of time until something more egregious takes place. What can be done to improve the situation? Hard to tell, and I'm out of answers.
Is it a pilot’s job to “coddle” a “stressed” controller?
Controller is wrong and then gets on a power trip.
@ben you can’t be on both sides in order to be seen as neutral.
I agree with Norita. On both points.
Controllers provide a paid service and must give correct instructions. It's not really a "oops, we messed up; nobody's perfect" venue. Gov't should apply the same rigour that they do to crash investigations. Errors (including this type) should be logged and published. ATC needs total accountability, to benefit the flying public and also, in the long run, the ATCs. If they're stressed and underfunded and understaffed, shouldn't they welcome an exposé? If funding should be doubled, isn't total transparrency the easiest way to get the public onside?
Ben's supportive preamble about ATCs is of course on-brand and appropriate. But clearly we don't want hangry error-prone ATCs on duty, ever. there's simply too much at stake to "coddle" a moody ATC.
Yeah… Really pretty simple this one. The ATC made a mistake and then went on a power trip. She is in the wrong; BA pilot in the right.
Mark my words, the next major US air accident is going to be at SFO. Their controllers are frighteningly overworked, the airport is overloaded, and the airfield layout is begging for some kind of collision.
I fly into SFO a lot (Pilot for a large US airline) and in the last 2 years the number of absurd and unhinged moments from the controllers at SFO I have witnessed and heard is crazy. One of those instances I got scolded for doing the right thing, but just like in this video it ended with a power trip. So unprofessional. I know controllers are having a hard time right now with being understaffed and overworked, but this kind of behavior needs to stop.
These ATC guys always finish with a sort of threat of giving "a phone number." Why is that? Where are the pilots supposed to call, who picks up and what's the purpose of the call? And what happens if the pilot just doesn't make that call?
A second question. Can the pilot also use the same line, asking ATC to give them a phone number because they want to call?
Some controllers in the US must have worked in Customs before joining ATC. They have the same rude and aggressive manner.
Yes they can or more apt the pilot will say "I'd like your name or ID # and a number so I can call the tower and discuss XYZ". If you follow VAS Aviation there's been plenty of times I've heard that happen.
I find the "she was already combative before the incident so she must have been stressed" line of thinking peculiar. Surely if you're stressed you try to calm things down, not create more stress for yourself? This seems to be more of a personality problem to me.
"Mark the tape" is usually used. It's basically a request for the ATC to make a note of the time so the ongoing exchange will be easier to find in a future investigation. It implies that the pilot will be filing a complaint against ATC.
Also, I think the phone number thing is exclusively used in the US. I never quite understood the reason behind it, since pilot of the plane is easily trackable, especially in commercial aviation.
I couldn't deal with someone talking to me in normal life the way the SFO GND controller was talking to BA on frequency, let alone an Air Traffic Controller. Zero accountability, unlimited entitlement, and a massive ego.
Pretty much epitomizes the decline in standards of decency seen in the United States. I have sympathy for the Air Traffic Controllers, but part of the job is keeping composure. As for the BA pilot, he was completely in the right.
As is customary with the English, the pilot was upstanding and direct in his communication, which was assertive yet not aggressive, both in substance as well as in style.
The phone number is generally the local supervisor of the controller(s) in question.
Of course I recognize that air traffic controllers work really hard, and are often way too stressed.
The hoi polloi interpret this type of recognition as a valid excuse. Oh I work hard and I'm stressed, so you have to deal with my attitude.
NO!
A respectful attitude is expected at all times irrespective of work or stress levels. This is a defining characteristic of well-bred classy people.
Furthermore, total hours worked by ATC don't come close to billable hour targets at top law firms. So it's not even true that they work hard. But I digress.
Americans are combative, aggressive and confrontational, both at home and abroad. It happens in all sectors and occupations, especially among ICE agents. We see it is a weakness when we acknowledge our flaws and errors. But without admitting an error, we will never learn from mistake and better ourselves. It is quite comical to expect a male admitting a mistake to a female, regardless whose fault it is. Interpersonal skills and manners are not taught at home. Offensive behavior and vulgar language are replicated from politicians to social media/ reality TV personalities and podcasters. It is a selling point to successful programs and careers for people in public arena. Heck even on this travel forum. Our government always has budgets and reserves to advance high tech war weaponry to impact maximum collateral damages and fatalities, but has no spare for domestic agendas. Like the medical field, air traffic controllers' association does not want to teach and train more staff to relieve acute shortage because it wants to maintain the highest possible salaries for its members that the market can bear. Japan has the highest stressful work environment in the world and the highest suicide rate in work environment while Americans go on shooting rampage on ex-bosses, coworkers, spouses/SO, etc... If we cannot resolve the persistent problems for decades, then we must seek out solutions from other successful countries. Oh yeah, the American exceptionalism is DOA to all feasible solutions because we are the wealthiest, strongest and smartest country on earth-- a perpetual delusion for generations.
One extra note: The government is not interested in finding a solution until the death quota demands action and justifies the costs. Politicians and journalists always ask where we can find the budget for domestic agendas but never question the costs from Pentagon's requested funds.
Other countries instill in their citizens a keen sense of dignity maintained by the relentless pursuit of decorum. America is largely bereft of such dignity except in the upper echelon of professional services. I guarantee every Paul, Weiss lawyer conducts themselves with impeccable manners.
Brad, with this post you appear to contradict the nonsense you posted below in response to a Tim Dunn comment. Are you simply ‘Karpping-on’ so as to emulating the average American ATC operator? …. “Get on the bus, now get off the bus and here is a telephone number if you don’t agree”?
One suspects that you are one of the twenty or so who will find any post which criticises Tim “Helpful”.
Hypocrisy and ignorance abounds on these comments pages, right Bro?
Arps, is that you in a black frock?
Your old red frock worn out or were you banned from impersonating a $600,000,000 law firm associate?
Who are you impersonating this season in your black frock, Sonny Jim?
You noticed the ‘comeback kid’ too TravelinWilly.
My word, some American fantasists do give one a grin even if they are so easy to unfrock. Ten points to Arps for persistence.
Brad_Karp, you are obviously suffering from Walter Mitty syndrome. You are using your legal beagle fantasy to escape from your normal dull as ditch water life. You obviously believe that your life is humdrum and boring, therefore, you find it necessary to escape into your fantasy world. Please try to understand that you are only fooling yourself and nobody else, thereafter, do seek help. You have been outed and would do well to face up to the reality of your condition.
@Icarus because the US allow people to listen in to ATC however a lot of countries do not including the UK and most of Europe.
I know this has nothing to do with this post but you should cover the incident that occurred yesterday at Milan Bergamo.
Did you either create 24 profiles or hack into the system to get that much upvotes?
Either way, it's really sad that you're investing that level of effort to get an attention on a miles & points blog.
I guarantee every Paul, Weiss lawyer conducts themselves with impeccable manners
Congrats.
You just proved that you don't work for Paul, Weiss.
It's those younger generations. They don't have the professionalism that we did. Back in my day...
Wrong, other countries have rude ATC As well. Comparing ATC to a lawyer is just ignorant.
Jo …. He’s a Walter Mitty figure who likes to tell us all that he is a ‘legal beagle’ …. humour him for his pathetic games.
Hello Ben, did you create Arps and now Brad_Karp to keep up the clicks?
Only joking Ben …. I know that you would not entertain such deception, however, I am surprised that your system does not flag up such flagrant violations of the House Rules.
Ma'am, if the nosewheel of my 777 follow the centerline, my mains will crush the taxiway light. You should know your airport better!
I'm sorry, but that ATC should be terminated effective immediately. There's absolutely no place for that attitude in aviation. It's the type of attitude that will get people killed. Let's get real, she should "know her taxiways" before making petty comments like that. Then, she had the audacity to basically tell the pilots to shut up and had the cajones to give them a number to call? Ridiculous. I hope the BA pilots filed a report about her piss poor behavior.
The flight number is 287, when and where is the number 7 changed to the letter K ? Is that something that all ATC's do, or is it an SFO thing?
In my experience, stressed people in stressful situations tend to spiral unless they've actually had de-escalation training.
Speedbird 2 8 Kilo (heavy) is the callsign used for this flight. The flight number is BA287, but that's not something that matters to pilots or ATC. As a completely random example, Ryanair 6 Romeo Juliet is currently underway. The general public will not see this information, but will be looking for flight FR9862.
According to Wikipedia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_call_signs): "The flight identification is very often the same as the flight number, but could be different to avoid call sign confusion, if two or more flights close to each other have similar flight numbers (e.g. KLM649 and KLM645 or BAW466 and BAW646)"
The ground controller's arrogance needs a dampener. That would have pissed off the pope. The pilot's retort was reasonable. "Listen, we're in training up here" is no excuse.
As a former Navy and FAA controller from the 80s and 90s, phraseology like this from a controller to a pilot was unheard of, and Never allowed, or accepted. Everyone, on both sides of the frequency, spoke with respect to each other.
Anyone having a bad day, “suck it up” or “cowboy up”. The SFO controller needs to find a new job, and God help her trainees. And God help the current Aviation industry, controllers and pilots.
Get off the radio and use the phone. In other words I just realized this is recorded and I don’t want to be reprimanded for my condescending tone
The at. Controller should have taken accountability and apologized! Stop blaming FGS
o0o0oh a phone number. Scary. But it's cool, it saves me having to find it to then report you for being an idiot endangering lives.
When manoeuvring a 350+ ton aircraft on the ground in a busy airport and responsible for 300+ lives, you need clear concise instructions, not snark and attitude.
Hope she gets repositioned herself...to permanent floor mopping duty.
No doubt ATC controllers the world over are busy!
Is it me or do most of these rude ATC/Pilot incidents mainly happen with American ATC?
Being stressed out or having a stressful job is no excuse. I don't think what the pilot said was wrong and I think it also depends how he said it. If he said it in a neutral tone, then this could have been okay. It is also not the pilot's job to deescolate the situation or to cover up for the fact that the controller should have apologized or just continued on. The controller reacted extreme I think.
That’s been the divisive and arrogant attitude of AMERICANS. Not just lately but it’s been ramped up lately.
10 to 1 she was a millennial who grew up protected from stress and now can't handle any criticism.
The controller was wrong. Tough job, crowded taxiways, training in progress. Mistakes will happen in any human endeavor. But being stressed is Zero excuse. Absolutely poor radio discipline on her part. Counsel her, and be done with it. No long conversation necessary.
BTW: What the pilot Can or Is Willing to do with the aircraft is 100.00% up to the captain, not the controller. Ever.
Signed,
A career Part 121 pilot
Sounds like a DEI hire waaaaayy out of her element & comfort zone. Also very similar response to Eva Air 15 (B777) leaving LAX on 16 Dec 2016
It seems to me the BA pilot escalated the situation first by saying give us the correct taxi instructions. The controller was just focused on clearing up the initial confusion to keep traffic moving. Radio frequencies are always congested at busy airports so non-pertinent remarks may be dealt with harshly.
Totally unacceptable attitude by the controller. Of course they're busy, that's the job! No excuse for rudeness. BA pilot spot on, was right to call out the unacceptable behaviour.
crappy ground controllers being crappy. you have to pity whoevers getting trained.
These women always got something to prove and have a stick up their @$$. Completely unprofessional and have no business being in this career.