A couple of days ago, we saw the tragic crash of an Air India Dreamliner, as the plane struggled to gain altitude after takeoff. As of now, there are a lot more questions than answers. However, as authorities continue releasing more information, we have more clues as to what was going on.
Continue reading: Air India’s Chilling Mayday Call: “No Thrust, Losing Power, Unable To Lift”
Share your questions, experiences, and thoughts below.
Comments on the Captain Steve video note (from 787 pilots), that the plane also wouldn’t allow the flaps to be retracted shortly after takeoff.
I like Captain Steve, but I think instantly pointing to pilot error isn’t a good look.
One is sure at this time there are those who would like to blame this tragedy upon Pilot Error. Therefore, the Indian authorities have made a wise decision by calling in an independent Air Investigation Team from Great Britain to assist their own investigators.
True, too early to judge or give speculations especially considering the quality of the videos are also very poor. It is not like the crew were inexperienced, the captain had 8100 hours in. Waiting for a preliminary report is the best bet to find an answer now
Immediately after takeoff, the pilot not flying raised the flaps instead of raising the gear, by accident; retracting flaps while simultaneously keeping the gear down increases drag and decreases lift, and would explain the movement of the aircraft, putting the airplane into a power on stall
No siren on Boeing? On any Airbus, the red warning sounds immediately when you move the flap lever. Also, the flap lever is positioned quite far from the gear lever and requires a different directional movement.
This take is being pretty comprehensively dismantled on professional pilot forums right now, which are also looking into potential RAT deployment.
Its really hard on this low quality videos to have a good look at the Flaps but the scenario that he its saying its possible because clearly the plane was in a stall it could be that or engines will see what the black boxes said.
The flaps and gear theory seems to be getting a bit of a beating elsewhere.
Not an expert at sll, but a few people are pointing to the angle of the gear being indicative of an attempt to retract them (for a Boeing).
He never said “pilot error.”
He goes out of his way to state “this is just his opinion” several times, more facts to come.
As a commercial pilot myself, we have a perspective to lend to this conversation vs. the uninformed, opinionated, irrational takes that are being formulated such as the clown that wants to sensationalize his flight prior with no AC, no IFE, etc. had a direct correlation to the AI171 accident.
Given the footage and conditions at the release of his video, this made the “most sense” from a pilots’ perspective. Once again, not some internet sleuth know it all.
If it’s proven that an engine thrust issue caused this event, I am sure CA Steeeve or Mentour Pilot, and other REPUTABLE folks will update accordingly.
A 787 can very well lift above a few thousand feet and maintain altitude without flap assistance.
The gear being down would have caused some additional drag.
Overloading cargo and fuel would have also caused additional resistance.
Although a combination of these factors could have cause the crash, its far more likely to have been an engine and electrical failure.
“ On any Airbus, the red warning sounds immediately when you move the flap lever.”
This is 100% an inaccurate statement. Why would you even write this?? FFS
Former FCF test and new aircraft delivery Airbus Pilot
That was necessary given the number of British citizens on board. Plus NTSB since Boeing is a US company.
Question for any pilots or technical experts on this forum - Does a bird strike always lead to smoke or flames? (since this airport is particularly prone to that issue).
Is there a world where it happens and there's no pre-crash, visual evidence to corroborate it?
Ahmedabad on the day of the crash, temperature soared to 104F. Not only on that day but for most of May and June, its daily highs have been at least 95F. AI171 took to the runway at 1:38pm, near the hottest time of the day and on the sun-baked tarmac and in dense urban areas that have been heated up throughly for the past several weeks, ambient temperatures would have been much higher. PHX sometimes delays departures due to heat as higher air temperatures make air less dense and reduces aircraft’s ability to lift. While air disasters are results of confluence of several factors, it is worth noting prevalent climatic condition in Ahmedabad in this particular case. A fully loaded 787 struggled to gain lift or even led to engine stall - though 787’s are capable of taking off at higher altitudes with thinner air - thinner air in combination with (perhaps) weight miscalculation, human error, mechanical issues, etc.
A thorough investigation will eventually determine the cause(es) that led to this disaster. Condolences to the families who have lost their loved ones.
Ben, do you have any confirmed source for this supposed Mayday transmission? Like an audio clip, or authentic press release. I see it's quoted on all the trashy new sites, but no one seems to be able to verify it.
My point: it's highly likely a fake statement
I saw the 'mayday, mayday no thrust no lift' quote in a minority of articles Thursday/Friday from Indian and some UK tabloid sources.
Some Indian local sources inconsistently cited the local aviation authority, but the UK tabloids did not cite a source and could not find any direct source that corroborate.
On Saturda, the local aviation ministry stated the crew made a 'mayday' transmission and that ATC responded with no response from the crew.
They didn't mention anything about no thrust or lift.
It's still possible the mayday transmission mentioned loss of thrust / lift, and the ministry chose to omit that in the official communication, but far from confirmed.
hopefully the first readouts from the flight data recorder will provide some preliminary clues within the next week.
Lots of speculation based on little data.
The dust cloud when the plane takes off suggests the plane hit something at the end of the runway, or debris sucked into the engines caused power loss.
It does not suggest either of those scenarios.
Wing tip vorticies are a powerful phenomenon, especially at rotation. Combined with a dry dusty runway edge, it's perfectly normal to see this.
Here's what happened because I know everything!
The flaps were incorrectly set and they turned off the pesky warning alarm. The plane just wouldn't go up because of the flap setting. The flaps were not confused for the landing gear lever.
When the plane crashed, the tail broke off and got lodged into the building. The front port side (left side) of the fuselage partially split and the section holding the passenger in seat 11A dropped to the ground floor. That passenger, without blinking an eye or being dazed for a second, released his seat belt and sprinted through a small gap just milliseconds before an explosion.
The investigation will confirm everything above because I know everything! Ask me to solve any unsolvable math theorem or to do brain surgery for the first time.
You might want to cross check that the pilot actually said that. That statement was retracted from the original source and after the mayday call there was nothing else said by the pilot.
So that is false
For any pilots or aircraft engineers out there, can you give your take on the following question:
Are there any scenarios you can think of that could cause a power failure to both engines simultaneously on the 787-8?
Cap Steve analysis is not correct (he is not 787 pilot), the double engine failure is most probable cause. Accidental flap retract is recoverable given if the engines working fine.
First: flaps cannot go from flaps 5 to no flaps in one motion. It needs to go from flaps 5 to 1 then fully. Also flaps can be re-extended right away and does not need to wait for full cycle to end.
Second, a TOGA button will activate engine power to 100% in 8 seconds. If flaps retracted resulting in lost of lift, toga would have been pressed as this is part of SOp for taking off stall / loss of lift recovery procedures.
The most probable cause is improper maintenance causing double engine failure.
LATAM flight 800 last year in March I believe experienced a significant loss of altitude very quickly. It was all over the news. I’ve not followed that story closely. But what was the outcome of that? Didn’t it suddenly lose altitude and caused some serious injuries and had to land in NZ? Is this in any way similar? Software may be. Very hard to say anything now. YouTubers please keep them out. They are just out to do what they would.
I think its worth noting that on FlightRadar24, the last known positioning of the aircraft was above the end of the runway at Ahmedabad's airport at an altitude of 625 feet. I don't know if FR24 deleted the rest of the logs as part of protocol for a crash, but if they didn't, then that would mean that was the last transmitted position of that aircraft. Including a small transmission delay, I think that would still tell us that for some reason, the transmission from the aircraft stopped at that point. The medical college site the plane crashed in is still quite a distance from the airport from that point. Since there have been reports of the RAT having been deployed on the 787, perhaps that last known point was the moment when the plane lost power. That would make sense, and supports the RAT deployment information. It also matches up with the point the 787 started to sink towards the ground.
Based on this information, to me the potential lack of extension of the flaps doesn't seem to have been the primary cause of this accident.
Fuel starvation, contaminated fuel or injestion of some matter like extreme rain or birds. Aircraft engines operate independently from each other except they share the same fuel from the wings or center tanks.
Disappointed to see you amplifying such awful misinformation here.
The video has been thoroughly debunked by people much more knowledgeable than me, he should know better.
No it doesn't. Sometimes it goes unnoticed until after landing in a post-flight visiual inspection. These engines are extremely resilient for the most part.
I'm pretty skeptical about his theory of the pilot accidentally retracting the flap lever. For one thing, the landing gear lever in a 787 cockpit is in the center of the display panel in between the two pilots' ND/EICAS displays while the flap lever is right next to the throttle quadrant on the first officer's side. It wouldn't really be consistent with the pilots' muscle memory during a takeoff sequence they've done hundreds of times to reach down and to the side rather than reach out in front of them to raise the gear.
Captain Steeve is not a 787 pilot-nor has he ever flown the airplane-and it shows.
The configuration of the airplane in the video looks exactly like a 787 with flaps set at 5°. Because of the configuration of the wing, and the length and flex it can be deceptive.
The video seems to indicate that the ram air turbine- a propeller on a shaft that drops from the fuselage in case of several different types of failure in order to provide the aircraft with hydraulic power- was deployed. This suggests a massive electrical or power failure.
With all due respect to captain Steve, he should never have made that video.
It will be interesting to learn what led to the Ram Air Turbine (RAT) being deployed. It may indicate complete hydraulic loss, but the reason is unknown. That would explain the gear being stuck.
A Taiwanese youtuber, @crazyjames787, who is a former captain of 787, analyzed the Air India's 787 crash. He pointed out that the loss of power to both engines. Another indicator supported his observation which he also mentioned when he streamed on the same day after the accident, which is that the Ram Air Turbine (RAT) was fully deployed.
You could check his videos but his videos are mainly in Chinese (Mandarin).
UncleRonnie, stop fondling your little nieces and stop watching porn in front of your little nephews.
Whoa, this is NOT the confirmed audio. It hasn't been confirmed and is potentially made up. (That it has been repeated ad nauseum online does not make it accurate - the original source said he didn't actually hear himself, and the audio hasn't been released).
All that has been confirmed by authorities is "Mayday, Mayday, Mayday" only.
Captain Steeve is just repeating what's all over the internet. Lucky don't do it too!
Lucky you've gotta pull the title of this post, you're blasting misinformation - that's not confirmed as the the mayday call! And might even be totally made up.
Speaking of which, Captain Steve just posted a follow-up video referring to the RAT deployment of the 787 and explained why he's changing his theory.
Air india is a JUNK, a dump, a pathetic airliner
just see their trip reports
see how indians are bad organized,
see how indians prepare their food
so we have to analyze more?
Amazing that anyone would give ANY credence to “Captain Steeeve” is beyond me.
The landing gear retraction started and was interrupted. If you look at the accident footage you will see the landing gear trucks tilted forward. They are tilted aft when fully extended and airborne, but the first step in the landing gear retraction sequence for them to tilt forward. This is further evidence that both engines somehow lost power. Also, there are stills of the plane that show it configured with flaps 5 and the RAT deployed. Flaps on the 787 are just a lot harder to see than other aircraft because of the shape of the wing. I can’t think of a scenario that explains how they got to that point though. It’s baffling.
In case of motors becoming unable to deliver his power it will have flame and /or smoke. else you may have small vibrations that dos not prevent the push of the motor and you will see à bend on one blade
He also flew as captain in India and knows all the fcked up things that happens there.
You don't lift or raise flaps, you extend them. And these flaps were clearly not extended. No large plane can take off without extending their flaps for the additional lift
Flaps and slats should not be retracted before the landing gear is up! I’m confident Boeing Engineering could implement an added safety margin—such as a warning, chime, or horn—to alert the flight crew if this sequence is attempted
Doesn't mean anything. You can watch videos of other aircraft safely departing that same runway, and see the same thing. It's just a dusty area.
Pretty sure the "no thrust and losing power" part hasn't been confirmed by any official source just yet.
it sure is an interesting pattern how easily Boeing crashes in countries not part of the western core are blamed on pilot error before any actual investigations occur. I am reasonably sure this isnt deliberate, but there sure seems to be some bias in the community, professionals and otherwise.
I keep on reading the whole “I do not understand why the gear was not retracted”, especially when coming from pilots.
1. If there really was a loss of both engines (which it is very likely) then the gear would not be able to be retracted. In the video you can not only see the RAT you can hear it.
2. It is not uncommon for the gear to be left retracted for a couple of minutes after take off when the weather is really hot or when the taxi has been long, to allow for the brakes to cool down before putting the wheels back in the fuselage.
Steve's newer video explains that the RAT had deployed, it can be clearly heard in the higher quality video of the crash. This would explain the survivor saying he heard a bang & then the lights flickered. Steve explains that it is therefore likely both engines were losing thrust. He doesn't speculate on how this could have occurred, other than it was unlikely to be a bird strike.
"However, it’s too early to conclude whether there was an actual loss of thrust or power," The pilot you mentioned actually posted another video yesterday where he acknowledged he was wrong because of new video he saw. Its obvious a loss of power occurred. It is absurd to suggest the pilots were just confused and maybe they didn't lose power. For crying out loud they have engine gauges. I think they would know and not just blindly speculate. Also the whole idea of the co-pilot putting up the flaps by mistake was a bit absurd. 1. because it wasn't some trainee pilot. This is someone who has done this countless times and 2. on that jet the computer system doesn't let you even put up the flaps when you are in the takeoff envelope. Not to mention the survivor gave an eyewitness account of the lights flickering which is the RAT coming online and providing electrical power. Its pretty obvious there was a loss of power. The real question is what caused this to occur. Maybe an issue with the fuel or maybe something with plane. Investigation will tell. Doesn't appear to be a bird strike. They found no dead birds, no reports of birds, no indications of birds in video or of engines ingesting something that would cause flames and the fact it was both engines having issues not just one.
I have been seeing comments that it is impossible to retract the flaps prematurely on a 787. I am not a 787 pilot, so I asked three different AI sites if it's possible to retract flaps prematurely on the 787. None said that was impossible. Can an actual 787 pilot confirm if prematurely retract ing the flaps, however inadvisable, is possible?
I'd be interested in knowing where you got the impression that a fully loaded 787 can take off and without flaps. The minimum control speed for a fully loaded 787 with a clean wing, is 210 knots. Not many runways nearly long enough. Properly configured, VR would be at about 160 knots, which was approximately the speed the ill fated plane achieved. It had a normal take-off.
Nope! old hat! from rotate to ball of fire = 32 seconds! mayday call was 'failed to achieve thrust... no power... falling.... mayday .. mayday... mayday', cmon, they probably got 10 seconds really to try discern what was even going on.. still.. level flight.... on course.. no abrupt rudder movements.. AND.. RAT clearly heard and seen with its unique sound and deployed in the non screen grab video... means.. total electrical, hydraulic, dual engine fail.. at most critical need for thrust, electric and hydraulic power
1. WE CAN OBSERVE THE WING FLAPS/SLATS ARE EXTENDED ON THE WRECKAGE .
2. MAIN LANDING GEARS TIRES ARE TILTED "FORWORD" IN THE CLIMB OUT VIDEO. MAY SUGGEST THE GEAR HANDLE UP SEQUENCE HAD STARTED THEN STOPPED.