It’s a tragic day for aviation, as an Air India Boeing 787 has crashed, representing the first-ever crash for the Dreamliner, since it first entered service nearly 15 years ago.
Continue reading: Air India Boeing 787 Crashes After Takeoff, Killing At Least 290 People
Share your questions, experiences, and thoughts below.
Looks like the flaps are still up, despite it being on takeoff.
CNN International is reporting that it never got above 400 ft, and there was a mayday call.
Awful.
And the landing gear still was out that normally its retracted immediately by the pilot.
Really terrible moment for Air India, this rebuild has been a disaster with bad news following the airline every few months. In long term, it will work out great for the airline if they keep the momentum but such tragic moments really puts dark shadow over the airline and considering how little most non frequent flyers knows about how safe airline industry is, it will financially loom over AI for the next few quarters
Best wishes for all the families of the pax and occupants of the building on ground
Sincere condolences to all involved …. there but for the grace of everyone’s God ….
UPDATE:
Sharpened picture, where slats ARE visibly deployed. Still can't determine flaps though, from this image.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GtPFDrnbAAA6c68?format=jpg&name=small
Tragic incident but the article has a factual issue: this is the second hull loss of a 787 after a China Southern 787 got damaged beyond repair last year in a hard landing.
That is very tragic. It looked as if the plane could not climb. Sincere condolences to the families of those who lost their lives on the plane as well as in the building.
I wouldn't say air travel is "incredibly safe" or that fatal accidents are "extremely rare" at all, unless you mean "relative" to motor vehicle accidents or as a percentage of total daily flights. If you think air travel is "incredibly safe" then you need to watch a few seasons of Air Disasters to see the many fatal accidents over the past few decades.
I don’t think it is damaged beyond repair outright. At least based on what I found online, it is put out of service until further notice
“Over the past few decades”? Do you know how many flights operate around the world each day, let alone the last few decades?
Your drive to the airport is so much riskier than the flight itself.
Air travel is much lower frequency than driving.
You're more likely to get into a car accident simply because people drive way more. So eventually past a certain point, you're bound to be in a car accident.
Regardless a lot of this has to do with the perception of autonomy. People feel like they are in control when they drive vs when you fly it's up in the air (literally) and in the hands of the crew.
I get where you're coming from—shows like Air Disasters definitely highlight the tragic and dramatic side of aviation incidents. But it's important to keep in mind that those shows are specifically designed to focus on rare, often exceptional events.
Statistically speaking, air travel is incredibly safe, especially when compared to other modes of transportation. For example, in the U.S., the National Safety Council reports that the odds of dying in a motor vehicle crash are about 1 in 93, while the odds of dying in an air transport accident are around 1 in 11 million.
No, Dan, that’s an incorrect assertion. There have been 5 million 787 flights since entering service, over 30 million flight hours. This is the first such incident in that time. If you spent every hour of your life on a 787 waiting for an incident like this, it would take you over 400 lifetimes.
Another way to frame why you’re wrong is that in the US there have only been about 200 fatal commercial crashes ever. There are 10 million commercial flights a year these days in the US.
Lastly, you seem to miss the point of Air Disasters which absolutely isn’t about making it seem like crashes happen often. It’s actually about showing how aviation learns from disasters to keep aviation incredibly safe.
Hoping for the best with regard to any survivors.
How soon after the plane crashed on the ground was there the big fire with all this smoke (and an any related explosion?)?
"I wouldn't say air travel is "incredibly safe" or that fatal accidents are "extremely rare" at all"
Which means you don't have a clue what you're talking about.
Take even the USA alone: between 2002 and 2024, USA didn't have a single mass-fatal (4 or more, per insurance) crash of a mainline commercial aircraft, and less than a half-dozen in regional/commuter commercial aircraft.
Nearly 230 million commercial flights, and over 12 billion passengers carried, within those 22 years.
But 0 mainline mass fatalities and only a handful of regionals (Comair, Colgan, American Eagle, etc)
If you can't comprehend that that's BEYOND "extremely rare," during that run of safety, then I'm not sure what to tell you.
That's why I wrote "relative" to car travel or to the total number of flights. However, just because an accident rate is statistically low compared to another mode of transportation or overall volume, doesn't mean it's "incredibly safe." Incredibly safe and "extremely rare" to most people mean maybe one or two accidents over decades of air travel, not enough to fill up 20 seasons of Air Disaster episodes which highlight all of the design flaws, pilot error, and maintenance errors we've seen over the years resulting in serious loss of life. For those people unlucky enough to be on one of those many flights, and their families, air travel hasn't been "incredibly safe." That's just a false narrative.
Before I saw any of the videos, I had a colleague at work tell me to watch and confirm his suspicion of the same. It's true - the flaps do not appear to have been set and I doubt that they would have been set before rotation and then retracted in the brief time that the a/c was airborne. Looks like another AI eff-up. First 787 hull loss? Who had AI in the pool?
Rather than blaming Dan, go watch the series and see how many accidents are caused by human error, not that this Air India cause is determined yet.
Air France or Korean would've been my first two picks with their chequered past.
Even JAL's A350 incident wasn't on my list.
Coincidentally, they share the same flight number with Indian Airlines 171 which crashed in the 70s.
Dan, it is incredibly safe. What’s the assumption of one or two accidents in decades? What kind of transport shall that be? It is always compared to other means of moving between point A and B.
That doesn’t make any sense.
Local media is reporting that it crashed into a dorm of a medical school. Since, new academic year has already begun, there will be on the ground casualties as well. This is horrible.
My thoughts and prayers are with all of those affected by this crash.
Unfortunately, while it is important to have hope, I don't think we will see many (if any) survivors. The plane exploded into a fireball immediately after impact based on the video. It also crashed into a densely populated area. I saw some images on BBC showing the tail of the aircraft. Based on those images, it does not seem like it would have been easy for authorities to immediately help survivors in the aircraft. Some parts of the plane have nothing remaining, while others seem to have landed on top of things on the ground without easy access. That plane also would have had a lot of fuel onboard given that it was just starting out its long-haul journey, and the video shows it ignited immediately upon impact. It does not seem like the plane skid on the ground, most likely it just smashed into the ground. There has been a huge plume of smoke coming from the impact site for hours after the crash, meaning a fire is still going. I hate to say it, but any survivors on that crash would be a miracle.
I also expect there to be fatalities on the ground, along with a number of injuries. There are images of burning buildings around the crash site.
It’s literally seconds into the air. As if the pilots are going to worry about the gear when they’ve got no lift.
I have no expertise here, and of course we shouldn’t be speculating at this time, but would it be fair to say that a 787, even without flaps set which is far from ideal, should still be able to perform a shallow climb at full power?
I would’ve said KLM (considering they recently botched maintenance for 7 Dreamliners) or AA (considering that a maintenance job was found responsible for the 737 engine fire they had a few months ago). That’s about it for the GE operators since RR powered 787s seem to have more issues than the GE ones
All very sad and my thoughts are with the family and friends at this time both for the passengers and crew and those on the ground.
I wonder if it was a hydraulic issue as the gear and flaps were clearly not configured correctly.
In what way has Air India improved?
Last I heard, they had clogged toilets and their new seats are falling apart.
Great question, wondering the same thing. Capacity for 256, 242 people on board, so fairly full. 10 hour flight + reserves, I'd think fuel tanks 70%+ full. Not a light load by any means, by shouldn't be nearing MTOW either. Can a 787-8 with some slats (visible in the video) and let's say 0 flaps fly on full power? I feel like it shouldn't just descend like it did, the descent looks like a controlled glide with little if any power. Can someone with expertise weigh in?
Agree with Eve. Although I will say that service issues and customer experience has not been up to the mark, I agree with Ben that their safety record hasn't been bad (and India's in general) just given the structural challenges of flying in the country.
Given the usual routing, 50t of fuel will get you to London.
Passengers and cargo will probably be 30t.
A B787-8 weighs less than 120t but more than 115t. Soo it's safe to say the aircraft more or less was at around 200t at takeoff.
There has been several incidents like this where the aircraft was able to slowly climb and gain speed and altitude.
There also have been a plethora of unsuccessful takeoff without flaps. Soo it's not a definite yes or no.
They are designed to function with the flaps.
Yes people have died in plane crashes but it is still incredibly safe compared to any other form of transport. In simple terms I could instantly recall about a dozen friends/acquaintances that have been killed in car crashes, I've never personally known anyone that has been killed in a plane crash.
You couldn't pay me to take an air india flight, ever, even before this crash. Based on recent air india flight reports and reviews, cleanliness and maintenance on air india flights looks non-existent. Wouldn't be surprised if the cause of this crash is poor maintenance.
@GUWonder - It looks like the explosion happened immediately on impact, and I would guess that the fire also happened immediately.
I am quite surprised to read "India has had a fantastic safety record". I fail to understand on what basis Ben considers this fantastic. The safety is definitely questionable, and I know for sure of lots of concerns in their maintenance and security, which again affects safety.
Not convinced flaps were the issue here, people are just repeating that but it's hard to tell.
However, it does sound and even appear that the RAT is deployed. Dual engine failure at takeoff is possible. As to why, that would be pure speculation right now.
Even after the Tata's have taken over Air India, if there are still "poor maintainence" issues what does that say about the Tatas ?
When Air India was govt owned we never saw any maintainence related issues...so why is this happening only now ?
Tragic loss of life of those on the plane and on the ground. We will find out soon enough as to what caused this crash. Until then, while our instinct is to theorize and critique, let’s keep those who perished and those dealing with their loss in our thoughts.
Takeoff never should have been attempted and the first officer was too intimidated by the captain to speak up. We’ve seen this time after time throughout aviation history. There’s no way a 787 would not have an indicator that flaps are not in the correct position at takeoff. It’s not 1992.
I discussed that tragedy with some Indian-born coworkers.
Some think it was not an accident 🙁
[and I am not into conspiracy therories]
This is honestly a bad take, given that in flight cleaning and external engineering/maintenance are performed by two completely different teams at pretty much every airline in the world, including at Air India. While this could still be a maintenance issue (no point speculating), overarching statements such as yours simply add negativity and speculation where none is needed on such a tragic day. Air India itself has had a chequered past with customer experience but not with safety.
@R B - This is why it is best to stick to the facts. Unfortunately, with the recent heightened conflict with Pakistan, there will be some Indians who will think that this plane crash may have been a deliberate act, and many more will ponder over the thought of it, even for a brief moment. As a Pakistani, if the roles were reversed and the plane crash would have happened in Pakistan, I would expect the same train-of-thought and suspicion from some people on our side of the border. It is unfortunately a combination of human nature along with the culture that exists in our part of the world. That's is why we must excersize restraint and wait for the facts to emerge.
@yoloswag420
Spot on re perception of autonomy.
It's why the (really very rare) train crashes are a big issue despite train being much (E.g. 20x) safer than car on any measure.
Great input. Wouldn't the failure happen on rotation, though, i.e. the plane would barely rotate? In this case it cleared 500 feet, and should've been accelerating - so, shouldn't it have passed the riskiest/worst point?
Let's be real Dan.
There have been 20 seasons and 259 episodes of Air Disasters since 2011. These episodes chronicle the significant (though admittedly not all) commercial airline accidents since the beginning of commercial aviation, which is obviously well prior to 2011. There were appx 449,1000,000 commercial flights operated worldwide between 2011 and 2024 alone, with an estimated 40MM additional commercial flights to be operated in 2025. While not apples to apples (because I'm too lazy to go back and dig up yearly flight statistics dating back to the dawn of aviation or the total exact number of commercial airline accidents, and some AD episodes include more than one airframe), the quick math shows an incident rate of less than 0.000001%. Extrapolating the number of accidents that out against an "all time" number of flights, would yield a figure substantially less than even that. I'm curious what your definition of "incredibly safe" would be if an accident rate of less than 0.000001% somehow doesn't cut it?
Healy's Law - "Follow the Rule of Holes: if you are in one, stop digging".
Ben is absolutely correct. Commercial aviation is incredibly safe, regardless of what you compare it to.
BBC reports 1 pax survived !!!
"A man survived the Air India crash that killed at least 200 people, a police chief has told an Indian news agency.
Ahmedabad Police Commissioner GS Malik told ANI there was one survivor who was in seat 11A on the London-bound Boeing 787-8 flight.
The flight manifest shared by authorities said the passenger in that seat was British national Vishwash Kumar Ramesh.
Indian media said they had spoken to Mr Ramesh in hospital and reported him saying: "Thirty seconds after take-off, there was a loud noise and then the plane crashed. It all happened so quickly.""
The orientation of the gear trucks suggests that an attempt was made to retract the gears, as the 787 gears will tilt forward before being pulled into the bays.
Lol. You all sound like Boeing and/or pilot apologists. Do you all have something to gain by claiming that air travel is -- as you guys would have people believe -- some exceptionally and astonishingly safe form of travel where we don't see regular disasters? That's a load of nonsense! Dan is correct that there ARE regular plane crashes, due to pilot error, poor upkeep, Boeing and their cover-ups, etc., and when it happens it's a catastrophic loss of life. Just like what we're seeing today. All of your statistics remind me of the Ford Pinto design flaw from the 70s, where Ford knew that a certain "small" percentage of accidents would result in the gas tank exploding, yet chose to sell the car anyway with the flawed design because it was considered an "acceptable loss" of human life, based on their statistics and calculations. This article could say that air travel is "exceptionally safe compared to driving," but not that it's exceptionally safe in general. Just because one mode of transportation which sees regular disasters is much safer than another does not mean the first mode is exceptionally safe. If airplane crashes kill, say 1,000 people over 10 years, then merely comparing it to car crashes which kill 100,000 over 10 years does not equal air travel being "exceptionally safe." Tell that to the victims of today's crash. "Oh by the way, sorry there's 400 people dead from the plane crash, but did you know that airplanes are exceptionally safe?" Lol good luck with that!
India has a fantastic air safety record? Uh, 4 years ago an air India express plane crashed while landing and a few years before that was the air india mangalore crash, and those are just one airline.
What would you call "incredibly safe"?
Sleeping? Riding your bike to work? Walking from the parking lot to the store?
Take sleeping. About 600 people per year die in the US while sleeping due to house fires.
Lifting off won't be any issues, maintaining/gaining altitude is the issue.
The last crash involving a flap issue was in 2008 in Madrid with spanair. That aircraft climbed to 300ft initially before descending.
It would appear no flaps or slats deployed. There may be a reason, but that is very unusual to say the least.
And what exactly does that prove?
This is not Slovakia or Namibia, we're talking about the most populous country in the world.
Umm, so one in 2020, and the other one is 2010. Seems a fairly good record?
Before that, in 2000.
And all Boeings 😐
I'm so sorry for the passengers, their families and friends, the pilots and flight crew, those individuals housed in the doctors' housing and everyone else involved in this tragic accident. They are all in my prayers and thoughts.
Besides this said, I have to say I think the public is getting sick and tired of worrying constantly about flying on Boeing aircraft. It seems quite strange that "It's usually another Boeing." Is the FAA failing to protect the airline industry by looking the other way on inspections?
A lot of other countries are buying up Boeing airplanes. There were thousands of them put on order by these countries just weeks ago. I wonder who else has this thought of what's going on.
Would you say the same for Korean, China Airlines, and Air France who all have a chequered past as well? Korean's issues are more cultural.
Would you say the same for Korean, China Airlines, and Air France who all have a chequered past as well? Korean's issues are more cultural.
@Ocean Man. I concur. Just look at the stats that prove your point. As of Sept’23, the third world airlines with most crashes:
1. AA - 11
2. AF - 11
4. Korean - 9
6. UA - 7
10. American Eagle - 5
11. Continental - 5
12. Lufthansa - 5
Another issue is the weather. It has been at or near 100F there. In extremely hot weather, it requires more runway, higher speeds, more lift generation for a successful takeoff. If anything regarding flaps, throttle setting, etc. was not correct, that could spell disaster. That being said, modern aircraft have warnings if they are not in correct configuration for takeoff so you wouldn't think that incorrect config would be the cause but who knows at this point.
I feel sad to see this Boeing 787 crash. Rest in peace to those people who were onboard.
Let the investigation be completed. However, AI policy is always to take far more additional fuel and generally all log haul flights are loaded to the gunnels with cargo as well as a very generous baggage policy for Y 2x bags and J 3x 32kgs. Therefore, it’s safe to say the aircraft with pax number was very close to MTOW. Whilst it seems quite insane, my money is when the PF called for gear up the PM retracted the flaps. With MTOW and confusion in the flight deck and whilst the 787 has auto yaw input, there is no sign of yaw. This would also explain why the aircraft sank so cleanly and was straight and level.
So sad.
I would not trust the corruption in the country, even it is a CEO who is Westerner that is currently in charge.
Car crashes kill millions every year globally, so yeah you can say that.
Also the Pinto thing has been largely disproven. Unsafe at any speed was a terrible book and it wasn’t that much more dangerous than other cars at the time.
Statistical illiteracy is more dangerous than aircraft thats for sure.
So you wouldn't fly Swiss?
(maybe you shouldn't throw around terms whose ACTUAL meaning you don't know).
If AI express is AI, is american eagle or delta connection that are actually operated by republic or endeavor AA or DL?
How about this, SQ is part owner of AI. So does it mean that SQ need to take the heat for AI crash?
Or How about IAG or LH group or AFKLM. When there’s an accident on one of their carrier, should the rest of the group suffer and blamed?
For example air france had plentiful more hull loss than KLM for example. Does it mean that KLM should have the accident recorded in their name as well?
If all the answers are NO, then air india xpress accident is not air india accident. I rest my case.
Don't think so. Looks to be an electrical failure of some kind. weight may have contributed but there is a video making its rounds in the media showing this plane on the flight before with the electrical power not working in main cabin. I suspect they tried to fly without doing proper inspections into what was going on with the plane and people died. I do agree its possible they may have been pushing up near MTOW though.
well you also have far more people driving than flying on a daily basis and lets face it most people don't drive safely.
Hopefully people were out in class or working or something. No matter what this is horrific. There needs to be a full investigation and that plane tried to fly when they had reason to know there were issues with it then people need to held accountable to the full extent of the law.
Not sure what happened on the flight deck but wonder if this is a situation where they should have aborted takeoff.
Assuming they didn't lose power/hydraulics etc. Also this all happened soo fast I'm not sure that was the highest priority. Yea the gear causes drag but they were dropping soo fast maybe pilot was hoping they could at least clear the building and do a controlled crash in the area behind it
There are always lots of rumours and conspiracies that circle in the aftermath of a mass disaster. Some people still believe meshugah tall tales about 9/11, or TWA 800.
You sound like a Boeing short seller jumping on an opportunity. Start with the sympathy but then get very non commital on how you want to lead us to feel. Hmmmm. Nope.
@ole
That's a chatGpt generated stat. And a good one to manipulate for your own narrative. There are way more 1st world flights than airlines from 3rd world countries so obviously the likelihood would be higher for an airline in the usa or Europe.
Seems that nobody does per capita statistics anymore but I do remember them in the 90s and on top of the list at #1 was air India. But that was 25 years ago. Korean air had a bad rep back then as well and they turned it around. I'm not so convinced with AI
Maybe you should stay inside your home and not go out? A raccoon might shank you and mug you which is probably as likely as you being in a plane crash or win the lottery.
Would be great if you listed crash rates for the last two decades by plane movements. Silly to use stats from the start of the jet age or before.
I think one lifetime is about 700,000 hours with a life expectancy of ~80 years, so wouldn’t it be 42 lifetimes rather than 400?
Boeing pilot here…
All commercial planes need flaps/slats extended to fly at initial low speeds during takeoff climb. (Swept back wings efficient at high speeds, not so much at low speeds.)
Purely conjecture at this point, my “guess” is possible flap retraction at “gear up” call out, hence you see gear still extended and all these claims that flaps/slats “look” retracted comments.
Flaps/slats retracted at takeoff speed, prior to acceleration altitude (typically no earlier that 1,000 feet above ground) will cause loss of lift or if not rectified immediately.
Investigation will reveal a lot in the next few months.
R I P
Given that this surviving passenger was seated in the front of the plane in seat 11A, I believe that it's possible that the loud noise he heard was the back of the plane making impact with the ground. The back of the plane landed on top of a building, and it may be that the front of the plane then broke off and slid for a bit, explaining why he may have thought there was a delay between the loud noise and the crash. Just a possibility in my head
Has anyone noticed that Air India’s CEO ripped off (nearly word for word) Robert Isom’s video following the AA5342 crash in January? I get that there’s standard messaging with these kinds of tragedies, but this guy used the exact same phrases, transitions, everything. Not a coincidence — and in a weird way this makes it feel incredibly disingenuous.
Air India’s video: https://x.com/airindia/status/1933158349337489691?s=46
AA’s video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zJwDFNp_Bjk&pp=ygUUcm9iZXJ0IGlzb20gYWEgY3Jhc2g%3D
What a horrible atrocity. My heart goes out to all grieving families and loved ones.
EXACTLY while this 787 crash happened, I was taking pictures of my 787 in Frankfurt...that hits real close to home for me.....
Watching the motion of the aircraft I noticed that just before its descent its nose angled up further (probably after the ram turbine fired) in an attempt to gain altitude. Considering it lack of power I would presume a lask of airspeed too. What was the stall angle at that speed. Did the pilot inadvertently stall the airctraft further exaserbating the situation??
I presume you are a pilot.... did you notice the nose angling up at the last moments?
Its not. The state is widely available. Since 2000, US airlines have had 5 deadly crashes excluding sightseeing aircrafts, helicopters, and Intra-Alaska. This was 3rd for Air India. And as-of right now we don’t know the cause.
And let’s not forget how the first world country fucked ~500 lives. Shamelessly blamed “untrained” pilots, and then bribed their way from taking any responsibility. So, cut this third world shit.
@Lepe Ed - Sure. But I didn't make the claim. You did. So let's hear the factual basis.
Yes, I did notice that, though I'm not a pilot, just a 13-year-old avgeek, LOL!
It may have been intentional. The pilot may have dome that input in an attempt to slow the aircraft down before impact, which can make a difference in how bad the crash is. I don't know if that is the case here, but it is a possibility.
It's also possible that the pilots were trying to put the plane down on the medical college campus. I saw a map of the area where the plane crashed, and the area is very dense with concrete buildings, except for the medical college, which from above looks like it offers some open land with a lot of greenery from the pilots angle in the aircraft. The pilot in command may have decided to try to put the plane down there when he understood that they were going down in an attempt to maximize their survival odds, along with minimizing ground casualties. Unfortunately, its likely they they didn't know it was a medical college campus. The tree lined campus also looks like it would obstruct the view to the ground, so the pilots would not have known what is below until it was too late. While the area the plane crashed was tragic, if the pilots chose to put the plane down there, I can see why they would do that. Otherwise you would be hitting solid concrete buildings in a dense urban area which would destroy the aircraft immediately and would have a lot of ground casualties (which it still unfortunately had).