Reflecting on my Royal Jordanian flight a few days later...

Lucky, in 2010 I know where you were coming from and can sympathize. I too flew BKK-HKG, but on TG. One would think this would be an excellent experience, but I was bumped from J to a middle back seat. But the fun didn't stop there.

I have traveled to more countries than i can count on my digits, on all continents except antarctica, but this flight I was on scared the you know what out of me.

Not because of the crew or because of the pilots, but my seat partner was making threats and repeatedly saying prayers and thrashing in his seat spilling apple juice all over.

I asked to be relocated, but the plane was 100% sold. Was I over reacting, most likely, was my seat partner crazy, most likely.

Was I glad to touch down, clear immigration, and rush off to the Silk Air Lounge. Most definitely.

One thing that jumped out at me was your ability to write a well composed and well written post just an hour after your stressful and near-death experience. I don't think I would be able to do the same. Just curious if you consider writing your blog as a "release" or a calming stress reliever?

This long-ish post can be summed up by just one sentence: Don't fxxxing fly Royal Jordian.

All joking aside, your analyses are fair enough and agreeable. I'm very grateful that I never encountered any similar situation like you did.

Safe travels, mate!

@ ThriftyTourist -- Absolutely, while it's also (one) of my jobs, blogging is probably my favorite thing to do. I find it to be extremely calming/de-stressing, and that's the case whether no one's reading or thousands of people are reading. There's something calming about typing your feelings and them appearing on a screen, I don't know what it is. Actually during the whole Royal Jordanian situation I actually wanted to pull out my laptop in the middle of it all and start typing. I know it would've made me feel better. 🙂

Lucky, have you tried to reach out to Royal Jordanian regarding this flight? It would be very interesting to hear their side of the story as well.

Is there anyway you could contact Royal Jordanian's captain. It would be interesting to hear his position. I believe you said he was thinking of retiring after this flight. I would like to know how concerned he was for his personal safety.

What about the ATC? Did they have any idea how rough it was there? Is it possible to get a comment from them?

I think you captured the situation perfectly and reacted appropriately - I would forward this to the FAA or the appropriate governing body though.

@ Johan -- Frankly I wouldn't know who to reach out to. Customer relations? Doubt it would get anywhere...

The Captain has the ultimate authority for the operation of the aircraft. There is no excuse for holding 30 minutes in a thunderstorm! Simple as that.

I didn't think your first post was overreacting at all, and I'm glad you've revisited the flight with the benefit of a few days perspective. I think the takeaway message for me, at least, is to be a little more circumspect in choosing to fly certain foreign carriers. There are cultural and training differences that we cannot understand or evaluate as customers.

I'm curious what made you think the plane was going to crash. Severe turbulence is bad, but planes are built to withstand it. Lightning strikes are bad, but planes are built to withstand them. Heavy rain and/or hail are bad, but planes are built to, you know, withstand that.

I think 30 minutes of any sustained unpleasantness (especially when you don't know how long it will last for -- which is probably the only thing you can fault the pilots for) is enough to make someone hysterical. That being said, I think your story is a more poignant description of how 200 people respond to a stressful situation than it is a description of how your life was in danger.

@ Lucky, perhaps try their social media channels or else ask to be referred to their media relations dept.

http://www.rj.com/en/stay_touch.html

Glad you are well and didn't swear off flying. People say ours is a dangerous hobby but I think flying is *generally* safe and I've been injured far more frequently and seriously from other hobbies (skiing is the first that comes to mind).

Being from a third world country, I understand what you mean by different cultures, but don't you guys fool yourselves that by flying first world airlines, you might not get into trouble, especially when flying to a third world country. There is much more chance for these pilots to be arrogant and ignore important instructions. Also, those beloved middle eastern airlines have pilots from all over the world, so I don't belive there is a standard for their behavior as well.

lucky, you reminded me of an article by Malcolm Gladwell about the correlation between the respect for hierarchy and the number of air crashes. I believe it is in his book What the Dog Saw. Great article about air crashes in general.

I think it is important to write down your feelings as soon as possible after such an event, even one that is not so traumatizing. And with a follow-up some time later when you are calmer - then we can judge whether this was a lasting feeling or just a momentary panic. That's why some of us read your blog, not just to fly cheaper. Obviously this will stay with you for a long time.

I happen to be afraid of flying (I am also a terrible passenger in a car) an I have had some awful flights (that to some may have not seemed not bad at all). I have had to be restrained by the flight attendants once when I tried to get out at 32,000 feet! That hasn't stopped me collecting airmiles !!

I am much better now, probably because I fly about 50,000 miles a year now all for "pleasure" (no business travel). I have bought only 3 tickets without miles in 19 years of travel and one of those was just after 9/11 when AA was so pleased I didn't cancel that they gave me quadruple airmiles bonus for flying on my $99 ticket coast to coast. The other two were when I had to fly immediately and had no time to hassle with free tickets.

So, just keep up your blog the way you do and those who don't like it can read one of the many others. I read about 10 airline/miles blogs.

Speaking personally, I think your only "mistake" thus far is to keep explaining yourself to those who criticize you in the comments. I have a blog, too, and I can say from experience that you can NEVER please every commenter. Some will think you are amazing for helping a little old lady across the street, others will think you are a jerk.

So, ignore the naysayers, blog away, and if someone doesn't like your posts they are free to CLICK somewhere else. But for heaven's sake, don't apologize for doing what you do (unless you seriously f'up, that is!).

And I thought your post on your flight was excellent. 😉

I dont know the whole story but based on what you describe I blame Hong Kong Center for keeping these aircraft on that red cell. The aircraft radar is not as good as ground doppler radar. In addition, the pilot cannot deviate at will, he simply can crash into another aircraft. Basically the pilots are trusting and depending on ground control to keep them safe and at a distance from other inbound aircraft.

Not sure why these pilots couldn't be rerouted to the nearest alternate airport. Yes it would have been inconvenient and most likely would have had to refuel but it happens all the time. As far as documentation ( passenger) that is a non-issue as we saw during 911 when lots of planes where routed to alternative places that had a different set of immigration rules.

Lucky keep doing what you do. The majority of us love your work. Let those butthurt readers complain all they want about your motives and reactions. We are here because of you. No need to keep explaining yourself.

Lucky,
Keep up the good writing you have been doing. Everybody is entitle to their opinions. You have yours and they have theirs. I enjoy reading your posts. The people who are trashing you weren't on the same flight so their prior experience with RJ can't count. You may experience differently next time you fly RJ, if you are brave enough.

Hey Lucky, have you complained to RJ? I think you have a solid case. Also, since you're good at escalating things to managers on the phone, you should be able to get your point across.

I have posted this thread on the RJ Facebook page.

When did you get your PPL?

how to you like kspg?

I was on a DL or AA flight (who keeps track?!) 2-3 months back with my son. The captain basically gave us an air-tour of the rockies and interesting locations. Very chatty. While some may have not appreciated the chattiness, my son and I loved it.

And now that I think about it, I guarantee you that captain knew the ground from the air better than a map, it showed competence and professionalism.

Have you reviewed the radar archive for HKG from that day? I'd be interested to see what the map shows.

Gladwell's What The Dog Saw is a great book and that section on air crashes was very revealing, especially, as you pointed out Lucky, the way the co-pilot on the Avianca doomed flight KNEW that they were running out of fuel, but didn't want to say something to the Captain for fear of offending his authority.

I really think you should do whatever you can to try to get an answer from the airline. Otherwise the curiosity is going to bother you (and me) forever. I doubt they'll give you much of a response, but it's worth a try.

I'd also be curious as to what conditions were like at potential alternate airports. With MFM, SZX, and CAN all a stone's throw away, diverting should have been a no-brainer, even late in the game.

Indeed. And don't forget maintenance. Not to pile on, but I try hard to NOT fly on non-unionized maintenance personnel airlines (much harder these days.)

Anecdotally, from two airline safety individuals I knew, South American airlines tend to be the worst at maintenance especially on older birds that are at or near what should be their final D Check. Especially they claimed with intra-continental flights in South America on lesser carriers.

It was not just KE or Avianca. The flight from DCA that crashed into the Potomac had the co-pilot asking the captain very deferentially until the crash. The AF flight had the pilots afraid to call the captain for help and crashed. These are from the US and France, just in case some readers are like US agents. 🙂 After DL retrained Korean in English as the medium and stressed safety first, there has been no KE crash.

As a private pilot, you know that it's never "just a red cell." Convective activity has killed friends of mine. It's nothing to play with, even in an airliner.

Avianca's accident changed the entire cabin culture and now it resembles US models. No single crash since 1990. Most of Latin American airlines today operate brand new airplanes. Avianca's fleet is less than 6 years old. LAN/TAM also operates very well maintained aircrafts. IN contrast, some of the US carriers operate planes that are way too old to be flying commercially( AA MD80s, Deltas DC9s).

I had two very serious situations in the second half of last year. Both operated by Swiss, which made me reluctant to fly altogether. I haven't taken a plane after completing the last trip.

LYS-ZRH - 30th of August 2012 RJ100, after departing LYS we entered a thick cloud layer and eventually a thunderstorm. We got hit by a lightning and had very serious altitude changes. This was the first time ever I was close to losing my consciousness during a flight. We must have had some pretty serious positive g's, blood flew away from the head making me lose it. I thought that was it. The captain has not spoken once, he only advised we would have some chop on the way when turning on the fasten seatbelt sigh.

WAW-ZRH 27th of December 2012 A319 wind at destination 37G45 (no kidding - extreme wind) - two attempts to land, with the first one reminding me of what happened to a Lufthansa plane at Hamburg, the right wing dropped as we were really close to the ground, a go-around was initiated, the pilot has not made a single comment, only the purser made a brief announcement being pretty terrified herself - she sat opposite to me - scary stuff

I am a Lufthansa Senator, and I have taken a few flights in my short 25 year life, but have never experienced such terrifying situations before, so I have a lot of understanding for all your comments Ben. Especially if your flying in low visibility say thick clouds, thunderstorms, having situational awareness is the key to not getting hysterical. Where you able to keep track of the flight on your IFE during the turbulence? I guess that could have helped a bit.

@JamesYVR - I have looked and looked, but I don't see it on their Facebook page. I wonder if they scrubbed it?

For those curious what sorts of loads/flex a widebody's wings can handle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ai2HmvAXcU0

Will you fly RJ ever again in the future?

For those of you who want to experience really scary but fun landings, please try to visit beautiful and mystic Bhutan. The landing in Paro is the scariest thing you can imagine but the scenery is gorgeous. The pilots are well trained and let you know what is going on in advance, as it is very difficult to land in the middle of the Himalayas. In fact the planes (A319) had to be fitted with A320 engines to make them as powerful as possible.

Lucky, No matter what your experience was, don't let it keep you from continuing your work. Besides, your sharing is theraputic and we can all learn from your experiences. I learn something new on each of your posts and value your knowledge and acumen, especially when it comes to evaluating different programs or finding the best way to value all of those offers out there. Keep up the good work!!!!!

@Chris

That wing test was a slowly applied force, not a massive increase in G-load in a fraction of a second as can happen in a thunderstorm.
Like the person who said United would have laughed at ATC , I would, as a pilot, have deviated , if necessary, even without approval from ATC. Declare an emergency, and deviate. It's pretty simple--problem is knowing where to go. FAA regs permit deviating from an ATC instruction in an emergency, so I assume do international or local regs.
I guess this gets back to not getting into this situation, which goes back to basic training.
And the stew had to be freaking out, only reason to be in cockpit.
I guess as a pilot, I have experienced every level of turbulence from light chop to extreme--where the airplane is totally out of control. One learns quickly what to avoid in these situations.
I d hate to think any of the Nigerian students I trained (none of whom got a pilot's license while I worked with them) , are up there flying around in the soup.

Soooo... were you in your G string or not?

Agree with the commenters who suggest clarifying with RJ somehow, certainly this is a flight I would remember for years and would want some closure if possible.

Disagree with the comments about no danger, if you want to expose any fault in aircraft maintenance or undetected weakness fly it in those conditions for an extended period. Most all fatalities are a result of two or more underlying factors and flying in complete crud too long gives you one factor and can be avoided.

There is simply no doubt that from atc or logistics perspective the flight could divert, only rj can comment why they didn't.

Lucky thankyou so much for your blog and both these posts. Please know another reader really appreciates.

This is getting old, and your post is just a rambling. I stopped reading after the second paragraph.
Now it's time to let it rest.

In Hong Kong we have a Cantonese saying that goes like this, "people do not know the pain until they got stung by needle", obviously armchair criticizers had not been in the same scenario, but sitting comfortably in their own home, typing very "righteous" but inhuman replies. In another word I believe nobody should be criticizing what you have written, unless s/he is also on board the same flight and s/he genuinely thinks it's really not a big deal.

A random guess here, I have learnt that autopilot may quit working under severe weather condition where the computer found it too difficult to follow the numbers, and the crew were left with nothing but hand-flying holding pattern in a storm cell and closely monitoring radio calls. It might also be possible that the cabin crew was there to help monitoring the basic figures (i.e. speed and altitude etc) as a "safety backup".

More fun stuff. As a pilot you must know that situations will arise that will tax your abilities in the cockpit. I think it's telling that you're puzzled by the presence in the cockpit of the flight attendant. There are times when two more eyes/hands might come in handy. If that is available it sounds to me a reasonable thing to do. Granted, if you're calling up a FA to do the job you're not going to get a set of "trained" eyes and can't be guaranteed of a rational reaction but at least they are there to help.

I'd also venture to say that in an extreme weather situation as you described that even a screaming FA in the cockpit would be at most mildly distracting to a pilot trying to do their job. 🙂

I'm not going to tell you that you shouldn't have been scared, but to ask for a more active part in what happened to you is simply unrealistic. As a passenger in a commercial jet you are totally and completely a passive subject to what's happening. No amount of announcements from a pilot can change that. If you think so perhaps your therapist can help with that.

So, have another drink, read the paper, and enjoy the flight.

Why don't you reach you to RJ and ask to comment on this particular situation? Find who the pilots were and interview them? Now this would make a great story 🙂

I actually know a couple friends at at RJ who are pilots, and it would be interesting to find our what went on from their side.

Do you by any chance recall what the names of either the Captain of First officer was?

Almost all flights will have an announcement from the cockpit providing at least of these names.

I can ask my buddies if they hear the story (im Sure a pilot jokingly retiring for such an incident) would discuss it with his pilot amigo's.

@ Hristo -- Hah, if only I could!

@ Sammy -- Wish I did, though I don't recall either of their names being said at any point. If you do have pilot friends they should be able to see the roster, I believe, and might know the pilots?

I was on the UA HKG-EWR flight the day after your RJ flight - and we hit some pretty rough turbulence that lasted about 60 mins. Ironically, the Captain made two announcements explaining the breadth of the storms and that all of the planes in the area were experiencing the same turbulence at different altitudes... a little communication went a long way! Maybe he read your post 😉

I do think you were a little unfair to the pilots in your initial post and comments. You said, "I feel confident in saying this guy just didn’t give a crap about the people in the back, and that’s not a trait I like for someone responsible for 200 peoples’ lives."

That is a pretty harsh thing to say about someone, and I don't think you really have enough information to make that kind of judgment. Blame the airline's culture, blame the pilot's poor decision-making, blame the flight attendants for not being "with it" enough to make announcements. But don't assume the reason for all this is that the pilot is simply a jerk who didn't care about you.

Keep on posting. If every one kept quite change would never happen.

Funny how so many blogers trash unions when they have clear benifits as you point out in this article. I recall how Capt Sully of USAir thought that many crashes were the fault of captins who tried to return to airports to "save the plane" when to ditch it might have been better for saving the customer's lives. You would be surprised to what degree the fear of mgn feeds into decisions up there.

Even course changes for weather issues have to be justified, without a union to protect you safety suffers despite what anyone says in public.

To top it all off, it looks like you might have been exposed to 10 years' worth of radiation . . . http://news.yahoo.com/dark-lightning-zaps-airline-passengers-radiation-120727432.html

Maybe they were using the flight attendant as a prostitute?

^^^ That's sort of what I was thinking, too. Enjoy life while you can, amirite?

Meanwhile, about the 'deference to authority' thing, in re KE, Avianca, the flight from DCA etc... let's not forget it was also a factor at Tenerife, which remains the deadliest airline incident ever. Though with A380s plying the skies, that could change one day.

You know what? The pilot was busy flying the fucking airplane! NOT to personally attend to u little self-centered ass fairy. You really should have vanished in the storm.

I'm glad you posted this, I've been in a couple of scary flying situations, but I can't imagine what was going through your head during this flight! I would have been a blubbering wreck by landing or I might have just passed out idk, for all those posting hateful comments, yeah I'm sure the pilots were busy but it's the captain and crews job to maintain order in the cabin, as well as the flight deck, if the pilots couldn't make an announcement then the lazy ass male flight attendants should have. Also, it'd be interesting to look at the entertainment logs from that flight to see how many people opened the Holy Koran audio book:) hope your recovering well from this horrid experience!

@ David - You know what? Lucky was busy worrying about his fucking life! NOT trying to make the pilot reward him anything you ass imbecile. You really should have vanished into the little place you fucking crawled out from.

Strictly speaking, David, the pilot should have noted the passengers what happened. He was busy flying the (fucking) plane but when he safely landed the he should've done something to tell the passengers what happened.

Lucky, I'm sorry you had such an experience that rattled even a well seasoned and knowledgeable flyer. I'm a senior purser at a major airline and I promise my crews full communication in both directions. I do this for my passengers as well. Through the various uncomfortable, bothersome and down right scary situations I've experienced, I know where my seat is and how that functions within the team of the flight deck, cabin crew and even passengers. Communication shows respect and that's what you were denied. Your were denied the respect of what you were experiencing and respect for what your crew was experiencing. Thus, when Mr. 02B rolls his eyes when another announcement comes over interrupting his in-seat video about rough air, I'll take heart that 285 other passengers are appreciative.

@ Your Purser -- Thanks for the comment, and hope to fly with you sometime.