Delta Air Lines’ upcoming aircraft deliveries are going to get interesting. The airline has a massive order book with Airbus, but insists that it won’t be paying tariffs on these aircraft.
Continue reading: Delta Plays Hardball, Refuses To Pay Tariffs On New Airbus Airplanes
Share your questions, experiences, and thoughts below.
'I never thought leopards would eat MY face,' sobs woman who voted for the Leopards Eating People's Faces Party.
( https://x.com/Cavalorn/status/654934442549620736)
Just a heads up to the OMAAT community. I've gone ahead and given Tim a bit of R&R, so he won't be commenting here until at least May 1. I want to see how the comments section is without his incessant [insert whatever you call what he does]. I've informed him of this, but despite that, he has left over a dozen comments since (which just go into the trash folder), now even with different usernames. Lol.
Tim, you're welcome to keep talking to the trash folder of the comments section as much as you'd like, and I'll just add an extra week to your vacation for each comment. Decisions, decisions...
The delivery issue isn't unique to the airline industry. Many industries that rely on heavy equipment sign contracts with delivery dates multiple years in the future, so unexpected tariffs inevitably leave parties expecting the other side to pick-up the extra costs.
At the end of the day, boring predictability is good for business, and Donald Trump is bad for business.
On the RHS of the pond and beyond, the buzz coming back is that some Airbus customers are hopeful that they might benefit from some of the deferred Delta order slots. I am not in a position to elaborate on this chatter, so, please do not shoot this messenger.
Ben, I respect your decision, but wouldn't you have to do something with some accounts coming after Tim Dunn every time? They could simply ignore but decides to waste their time, writing comments as nonsense as Tim Dunn himself, and consequently diverting the whole topic away. I see them doing no contribution to the community or abiding the commenting guidelines at all.
@ NS -- You're right, and that's my intent. My hope is that without him commenting, his trolls won't do so either, and we can eliminate a lot of the unnecessary noise in the comments.
All of the tariffs have been paused except China. So unless there's critical parts from China I have no idea of what this bozo is talking about. Could it be a sneaky way of deferring deliveries if demand is down?
Please do also moderate the comments that have increased in number that are racist, xenophobic, antisemitic, islamophobic...
I would be happy to help moderate as I am in a career transition and have plenty of free time now.
I’m very pleased Ben that you have finally taken some positive action as the incessant bickering was diverting my interest and even causing anxiety from an otherwise great site
Ben - thank you so much. Those accounts were sometimes seen even before Tim Dunn actually comments, but things could be different if he can't comment at all for now. Hopefully the comments section can get cleanier for a while...
Didn't something similar cause the 220 to be built in AL? Maybe Airbus will be forced to build big jets here too.
This is factually incorrect. Even with the pause of most of what Trump inaccurately calls reciprocal tariffs, a 10% tariff still applies to most countries. This 10% tariff did not exist before Trump.
Something similar caused the A220 to be the A220 in the first place. Boeing lodged a complaint against the Bombardier C-Series which ultimately led to Airbus acquiring the program from Bombardier.
Focus on why the site exists.
I am good with ZERO politics...that equates to 100% airplanes, airlines, airports, lounges, credit card deals/info and hotels. Ok, cruises are ok to an extent.
I don't care what your point of view is, unless you are reviewing airline service etc. The best thing about airline hard product is that we are all treated the same, assuming we have a rear end.
Trump does know the airline industry very, very well. In fact, he ran Trump Airlines right into bankruptcy.
Thanks Ben. 100% in support of this decision. I am all for hearing pro-DL viewpoints, but when one single individual begins to needlessly overwhelm and dominate the comments, other voices get crowded out and the conversation turns to an unproductive, provocative dumpster fire that benefits no one.
Second to Tim, the ads when viewing this blog on mobile are now the most annoying thing. I know you said before that it was a tougher fix than it appears, but I am sure I and others here would very much appreciate if they can be tweaked (especially the pop ups at the bottom of the screen).
This tariffs even affects a plane like a 787 Dreamliner when the majority of its parts come from suppliers outside USA.
Are you mansplaining to Ben what articles he should put up? And telling him not to put an article up that’s literally about the airline industry? Lol.
Set up an Irish subsidiary and lease, surely? Do tariffs apply on leased foreign aircraft?
It would appear that he is following on from that debacle by trashing the U.S. economy too.
Between him and the UK Labour government they appear to want the whole world to suffer.
This was my first thought—early, or at least on-time, deliveries for the rest of Airbus' book.
“The best part about airline hard products is we are all treated the same” - several high profile lawsuits which were settled by AA and LH about both racial and religious discrimination of passengers would beg to differ…
Often this is the problem - there is a Pollyanna-ish belief by many on the right that these problems “just don’t exist” while willfully blinding themselves to evidence to the contrary.
Why not use a dedicated 3rd party service for comments section? Disqus lets me block a user , for example.
https://help.disqus.com/en/articles/1717146-user-blocking
What its the price of an A350 about $300M? So with a 10% tax that means you will have to pay about $30M per plane and if you have a big order thats a lot of money.
Not at all.
My comments refer to the "sidelining" of those (Mr. Tim) who turn the blog into a podium for non-airline things.
Whether you agree or disagree with Tariffs isn't the point. Impact of them on the industry, sure. But then again, you don't know the impact of anything until afterwards. Thats why it's called impact.
Im confused, how can an airline seat, overhead light, cushion etc. (or individual air nozzle), discriminate? Are they programmed with sensors that detect a person's race, sex, ethnicity?
Defer A350-1000 airframe delivery? That's going to be a shame, so many of us are looking forward to flying these amazing machines.
It’s one of the campaign promises he actually followed through on (well, before yesterday’s reversal).
Trump is a typical American (sorry, US American)
believe 1/2 of what his mouth says and it’s still too much!
That guy is sooooo worthless. To ne mind-blowing, how many uneducated people there have to be in 1 legally accepted Nation to vote for such a loser? (Bankruptcy several times, guilty in countless charges, a total Nonsense, 100% NO Leader of any Country) … even a former Actor or Comedian who do/did the same job, ARE 100% better!
US Economy, wait and see!
Tourism, Unemployment, low income people crime rate going through the roof ….
Simply said: NEVER learned from the past!
ANY A*hole Trump supporter should be investigated too, … might find the REAL Criminals of the Country?! 😉 I bet!
Politics in the US is a “show”, nothing else.
Has nothing to do with “LEADING”.
I will post the same comment as yesterday.
This the same Delta that a couple months ago was kissing Orange Putin and Elonia's ass?
Disappointed to read we are now canceling people - I rarely agree with Tim however I can read his posts and make my own decision - I guess we are officially censoring now
average = in US obviously more than 50%, now the entire World sees the results !
Average is a math thing, i’m just watching and see MORE than average DID fall for that criminal?!
Off to you @ErikOJ
you might be right! ?
…. not to forget, only 1 Guy (in each of those Countries) is now dividing the entire Nation, at least trying to)
I absolutely detest the ads and they are by far the most visually intrusive of all the blogs I follow. You can always turn on reader mode for each article if you are using an iPhone. That’s what I do.
@Steve
No, the impact of a blanket sales tax is known before it's implemented. That's not a hard thing to calculate. Trump's tariffs meant that ALL products that we import from other countries, even if we can't grow or make it here, was going to go up significantly. Half the country called this correctly, the other half truly believed Trump when he said that the exporting country pays it lmao.
We literally saw this already, the trial run was his washing machine tariff in 2017. Washing machine prices outpaced inflation, rising 34% during the tariff period, 11% higher than other home appliances generally. Once again for the slow people, tariffs do not make things cheaper for you. Domestic industries have no incentive to undercut foreign tariffed goods, so all you do is establish a higher price floor, which hurts the working and middle class the most.
@ A flier -- There are published commenting guidelines, which he repeatedly violated. The goal is to create a comments section that is useful and constructive. While Tim is knowledgable about some things, the way he expressed himself just created an unnecessary number of distractions.
It’s a simple matter of expediency. It used to be that the comments sections offered some useful added context to the original article, which would further my education in all things travel. Those days have been long gone, regrettably. Let’s get them back.
Reading through all the ridiculous Tim Dunn blather and all the morons that fight back with him is not a productive use of my or anyone’s time
This is a matter of practicality. Absolutely not censorship.
@ SMC422 -- That's very kind! I have to make sure I can get the functionality working to give others that permission, but do you mind sending me an email at ben@onemileatatime.com? Thanks! 🙂
Ireland:
that might change soon too, if EU does really move forward with IRL tax law for Foreign firms.
Won’t help much then?
Thing is, till EU can decide again, Trump might be 10 ft under. ;-(
@ Anonymous -- The commenting system does have the ability to block users, and then comments from those users just go into the "trash" folder.
What country are you from?
I bet I could come up with several different insults about your country using the term “average”. You’re using it in a mathematical way that you hide behind but it’s still an insult to all Americans.
“The average German is too cheap to donate to charity”
“The average Swiss has fond memories of World War II”
By the way, I am also Swedish so feel free to express what the average Swede is or how he behaves
Same. I can't wait to tell my therapist that Tim got banned. I had to pop an Ativan everytime I saw his comments. I'm literally shaking right now
i do have to say, it would REALLY be interesting what kind of person is behind that guy? 😮
Sometimes amazing theories and posts, but how on earth does 1 person take such a stand for a Company that has no interests in saying 1 word for this person. Somehow sick, but also interesting to see such an enormous enthusiasm. Made me wonder VERY often?!
Maybe per 1 comment left here, he got 1 upgrade Voucher from DL, forgetting that he still has to pay for the ticket?
Glad to have a particular participant on Mute. Most of the time the comment section was just hyperbole and unsubstantiated rants, while attacking people who actually engaged in discourse due to certain individuals.
Great decision. I also stopped reading the comments due to Tim’s immaturity. You set guidelines which he did not abide by so you are totally within your right to ban him. Besides, he seems more happy over at VFTW. I appreciate your high quality posts that avoids the trash that Gary has been spewing out as of late.
Dear ErikOJ,
it has been mentioned many, many, many times during the presidential election, that Trump wasn't suited for the job. His character values were insufficient.
You could also see how Trump behaved during his events, and how he was unable to build two decent, consecutive sentences.
Now you deflect toward Germany and Switzerland on complete mute topics. That's the typical niveau of Trump followers.
Please stop whining and face reality. The US population was retarded, illiterate enough to elect a complete idiot as president despite the fact, that everybody know he's absolute incompetent.
You get, what you are asking for, and now you face the consequence for stupidity.
Thank you, Ben. I will now once again read the Delta-related posts and comments, which I had been skipping entirely out of frustration.
SNO - I detest Trump, and feel pity for your ignorance. I am disengaging. You are no better than Trump.
Troll
With Tim's forced vacation and Spirit's shift to "premium" perhaps it's time for me to become a Spirit Airlines stan in the comments.
I'm guessing if an airline denied boarding because someone was wearing a certain red hat all of a sudden you'd be aware of ways an airline can discriminate.
So Bastian thinks Trump is taking the wrong approach does he... How he has changed from celebrating how wonderful the incoming administration was going to be simply because Secretary Buttigieg insisted on holding airlines accountable for the crap they do. I am amused by the buyer's remorse...
The real kicker is that even Boeing planes will be affected as a high percentage of the parts/materials are from abroad.
I guess Airbus will be fine since the order books are more than full.
This is not the first time Delta (or Bastian in this case) has said this. A few years ago he was yapping about not wanting to pay any tariffs on Bombardier etc but didn’t follow through.
Airbus wouldn’t have an issue giving Delta‘s delivery slot to another airline. We saw how QR started a flight with Airbus and subsequently lost their delivery slots.
But given that parts of Airbus planes are manufactured in the USA, I don’t see how imposing a blanket tariff would work.
Also DL has been known to fly the new A330neos & A350 first to Japan to avoid some taxes.
Let’s see how this develops.
What exactly have you Kendall and Steven E contributed to this topic? This continuing dig at poster Dunn as he lives rent free in your heads is quite bizarre. At least Dunn would contribute his POV on topics whether you agreed with them or not.
When President Trump went after Airbus in his previous term, It was funny to see Delta send a brand new plane to another country and let it sit for a month to avoid the tariffs. Now, that won't work. It will be a shame if their A350-1000's are delayed even further 😉
At the end of the day its a waiting game. Delta will defer aircraft for 4 years or until this resolved in a way where there are no tariffs between the EU and US and probably lease any extra airbus aircraft in the US that it needs until then. The next election will happen and the new leader depending on how much hyper inflation we have will have along with the pulling out of foreign countries buying our debt which has been moving at warps speed since the last 5 days will bring us into a deep recession and maybe even a depression will quickly reverse course. If Delta were smart they would make a Delta Canada or Delta Mexico subsidiary and buy the planes there and set up a service center at a airport close to border and order all their parts there from the global supply chain and repair them there and fly them back into the US. I suspect all 3 airlines with orders will do this in the near term.
Ben, Thank you, as a daily reader of your website, this will substantially improve my satisfaction with your website. I was considering reducing my activity on your website because of the annoyance and noise that he creates and I am very happy I do not have to be distracted by the far too frequent comments and responses. Thank you for your recent actions and for your quality, industry leading, professional website you have provided for over a decade, it is appreciated.
Thank you Ben, without the forced vacation this comment section would have been littered with comments from TD, his/her fake accounts and others trying to argue with him
I'm glad we can finally put the topic to rest that TD was indeed rampantly using sock puppet accounts (a la Russian disinformation style) to signal boost his own nonsense.
No one is being cancelled.
You violate a community's guidelines, you suffer consequences, this is how real life works.
Tim is still more than able to comment on aviation in a myriad of online forums and/or start his own.
@Ben Thank you Ben. I hope you would do the same for DCS if he ever does come back full time though he did comment several days ago and rudely criticized you.
By the way, Ben do you have any feedback about the Hyatt Centric HK? Thanks Ben. The best blogger in this business!!! Have a good week.
@A flier - limiting someone's post on a private blog isn't "cancelling" them. That word has got so abused. Mr Dunn can comment on many other forums, has not been sacked from his job or had his career taken away, his public reputation remains unsullied. Heck, we don't even know if Tim Dunn was his real name.
Thank you for this. I think most people come here for the content of the posts, not specific individuals. In this case, I assume many actually didn't want to participate in conversation because who wants to have to deal with what TD brings to the table _constantly_?
I was starting to believe that ol’ Tim was some sort of attempt at an art installation like @horse_ebooks of Twitter yore.
I would be interested in any insights from the community as to how the deferral will be done contractually. A customer can't unilaterally defer deliveries, there is probably a mechanism for some flex in the delivery schedule, but eventually one party would have to declare force majeure. Once that Rubicon is crossed, a whole bunch of stuff is triggered.
I might be wrong, but isn't the difference here that in this case, Delta is the one 'importing' the planes into the US, therefore eating the tariffs, while in Boeings case it would be Boeing doing so? While it might not matter for new orders where they would just negotiate higher prices, I'd assume for existing orders prices with manufacturers have already been negotiated pre-tarries?
Is it like sports now and we all have to declare our allegiance to an airline? Dibs on Air Koryo!
it is interesting that Delta seems to have deferred their entire order book indefinitely with this announcement.
The A350 is not made in the US. The MAX10 can't get certified. The A321 is going to hit all carriers from NEO to XLR carriers. Apologies if I missed the A220 bit in the article, but I don't recall how that is impacted since the US A220s are assembled in Mobile.
It does make you wonder if AA/DL/UA would consider having airbus deliver to JV partners, for now (under specific contracts of when the US3 would get them back). I think this would be easier under the AA/UA JVs that don't have min flying requirements like Delta does. The a320 variant (read: XLR) is flown throughout all three JVs and wouldn't be tough to fly under different carriers if you want to avoid a 10% tariff on a plane assembled in Europe. Sure, is the AA/UA XLR arrangement unique to them, yeah. But nothing that can't be solved via a cute pillow in your own colors.
It would be a huge irony (not that much if you actually looked at the union history of the person you voted for) if the US unions ended up losing flying due directly to Trump.
Some Airbus planes are manufactured in the US. I don't think this would apply to those.
The Irish loophole is mostly around liscencing rights for digital and consultancy products. If the sole aim of the lease agreement is to set up a company who can purchase the planes with 0 tarriffs then any EU country should work.
you're absolutely right.
I meant more the XLR for AA and UA.
And the A350s (I need to go look at delta's 10-k to see if they have any 330NEOs deliveries left) for Delta.
A220 and some A320 series are finally assembled in the US but not the TATL birds that the JV could fly for AA/DL/UA if you want to avoid a 10% tariff.
Yep guaranteed recession and massive slowdown. China orders especially large ones that can be deferred and not routed through Vietnam will be cancelled or delayed. Q2 gdp will go down, q3 will be a dumpster fire. Confirmed recession by q4 this year
But the problem is, any airliner have so many imported parts, the tariff calculations and pass on to consumer will be huge in the short term, unless huge substituion campaign is carried out.
Don't think so; Aeroflot and other Russian airlines have done so for decades, as RUS always charged import tariffs. I think BVI/Cayman is better as they don't require so much disclousures.
Blocking problem posters definitely improves the comments section for everyone. My approach to TD is:
1) I don't respond to any of TD's posts
2) I scroll past TD's posts without reading much of the content
There should be a new law put in place where the President has the rights to remove and appoint new leadership in American companies when they refuse to comply with the law. Especially laws that are solely for the betterment of the American people.
Justin, please be advised that Great Britain has not enjoyed a real “Tory” government since Margaret Thatcher was knifed in the back by the weak, woke, LibDems Heseltine and Major. They only pretended to be Conservatives.
Likewise those who followed the disastrous Blair and Brown, equally were only LibDems in drag waring blue rosettes.
Furthermore, the reality is that Great Britain has not enjoyed a single successful Labour government this side of WWll.
Is there anything else which I can help you with today Sir?
Who is being canceled? If someone in society commits a crime and ends up in prison, were they “canceled”? No, they’re just suffering the consequences of what they did.
People are mistaking “We will defer any deliveries that have a tariff on it.” as not taking deliveries as scheduled for years.
Airlines and their tax consultants have a whole department dedicated on how to take delivery with the least tax.
Levers that they can play is always when and where to register an aircraft.
Not surprised if we would have United PRC or American Luxembourg or Delta Mejico subsidiaries with planes registered in Malta or Pago Pago.
Knowing the industry and ending up in bankruptcy are not mutually exclusive. Things happen despite best plans.
As long as the tariffs are there we are likely to see some sort of weakening of demand in travel so I think that is the bigger issue at play. Delta doesn’t want a bunch of capex spending if they are worried they won’t have full planes of premium class travelers.
Well done, Ben. TD occasionally added useful or interesting information. However, his utter incapability to disagree with anyone in a respectful way -or- admit when his “facts” were outright wrong ended up adding only vitriol. It’ll be a lovely vacation for us all.
maybe its not a “wrong approach” of President Trump, but Ed Bastian is the wrong CEO for Delta
Ben,
On behalf of the OMATT commenting community, THANK YOU!
Glad to see I could finally bury my "Jr" alias 😉
Now can you reach out to Gary at VFTW and see if he can show some solidarity with you?
Can delta buy a small foreign airline then buy planes and have them lease it to delta?
I think you got it all wrong.
Assembled in the US doesn't exempt tariffs on the parts they brought in to assemble it.
Well here comes Delta, SA the French leasing company that is the Airbus supplier to Delta Airlines.
@Ben seems like TD's burner account just start posted in here again. Hopefully his "vacation" will extended again
I love how everyone on this site suddenly turned into macroeconomic experts! If tarrifs are so terrible, then why isn't there runaway inflation and suffering in every other country in the world that imposes stiff import tariffs? The worst offenders of all are the Chinese and the EU - but somehow when the USA decides to take that strategy it's the worst thing ever!
Relax everyone. Trump has got this. Just like he did the first time around with the first Chinese tariffs that Biden continued. In the meantime go scoop up stocks on sale and have fun. America is back baby!
I hope to god they don't replace these orders with Boeings. Nobody should be flying on any of that crap built in the last ten years.
perhaps so. It would be rather amusing if AA and UA paid tariffs on 787s made in Seattle and Charleston but it's a narrow law that would exclude Boeing but not Airbus.
I would think that's a pretty awful look for the administration.
Because no other country imposes high, blanket tariffs on all of their largest trading partners. It's one thing to tariff China to protect US industries from heavily subsidized Chinese state-owned industries, it's another to slap 40-50% blanket tariffs on all imports from countries that we primarily buy clothing, food, oil, and luxury items from. Unless you want Americans working in sweatshops, the US is not going to go back to being a major clothing exporter. And it's geographically impossible for the US to grow enough avocados, bananas, citrus, almonds, coffee, tea, cacao, etc. to satisfy our domestic demand. There is just not enough arable land with the correct climate to do so.
And please. Tell us all how the EU is supposedly ripping us off? They bought $650 billion in US goods and services in 2024, our top exports to them are oil, pharmaceuticals and medicines, and aerospace and machinery parts.
Nah, intentionally crashing the stock market and initiating massive price increases for consumers is Trump's own goal. While I think Ed Bastian should have taken the tariff threat during Trump's campaign seriously, because Trump verbatim told us he was going to pull a Mckinley, he decided the possibility of Trump initiating more deregulation and cutting more taxes would outweigh the potential cost of tariffs. Poor bet IMO, but most major corporate CEOs made that same bet and lost too.
Nah, intentionally crashing the stock market and initiating massive price increases for consumers is Trump's own goal. While I think Ed Bastian should have taken the tariff threat during Trump's campaign seriously, because Trump verbatim told us he was going to pull a Mckinley, he decided the possibility of Trump initiating more deregulation and cutting more taxes would outweigh the potential cost of tariffs. Poor bet IMO, but most major corporate CEOs made that same bet and lost too.
Yeah no, Trump killed a casino too. He has 0 business acumen, he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and all of his actual business "successes" consisted of having the money to purchase valuable real estate. All he had to do after that was ride it, even if his hotels and clubs did lose money. Compare to Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos, at least they actually built things in order to earn their fortunes.
Then why does the EU have higher tariffs on many U.S. goods…. It seems to “work” for them
They will : 75% of the 787 is made abroad. Those 75% of parts will get tariffed. Even the 737 imports a lot of components. Thankfully the manufacturing rates have been so low that they are swimming in parts that were imported before.
But ultimately Boeing will be much more impacted by tariffs than Airbus. Airbus only has 13% of its global business in the US and can assemble narrowbodies there so can be in a relatively competitive position for narrowbodies. In counterpart they will get 100% of Chinese foreign orders where Boeing will get 0.
Delta made a choice of buying imported planes. They won vs those who ordered local when the risk was on supplier delivery but this bet was not hedged against protectionism.
He got 49% of the vote from 63% voter turnout from the 78% who are over 18. So check your math STEFFL. I suspect you disliked Americans prior to 2016 too.
How will Delta beat United without those beautiful A35Ks? Will UA and AA get their A321XLRs from Mobile,AL ? Will they alleviate any substantial amount of tariffs compared to a Europe finished widebody?
It's funny how the talk about how American and UA not hedging their bets against failure from Boeing are reverted as Delta did not hedge their bets against a return to protectionism. Despite having first hand experience with Trump1.
That's the beauty of all discussion on risk: the ones who "win" talk a big game until a risk they did not consider materializes. Running a business is about taking shots and only in hindsight can you know which ones were the right ones. And little people or companies make the right bets knowing they will be. Most are lucky.
It's been voiced, but I also have an issue with how this was rolled out. Especially with it being unilaterally targeted toward Tim when there are many, many others who are just as 'detrimental' to the comment section. I'd argue there are several other commenters who were more egregious than Tim in showing disrespect (usually toward Tim...) - doesn't feel right to only have one of the many targeted with this action.
I don't think the do? Other than the more recent tit-for-tat retaliatory stuff.
I could be wrong, but I think most of the complaints about the EU from the White House seem to be about sales tax.....which is in no way a tariff on imports. I think the White House is wrong about this.
Agreed, I wasn't able to find anything about import tariffs from the EU on US goods either, other than things applied in response to Trump. VAT has been around a long time and applies to anything people buy abroad regardless of the country of origin, so it's not just a thing against the US. I've heard all about that for well over a decade from Finnish friend that imports Japanese manga.
Come on man, be reasonable. After all we were losing everything with Biden. Not only did prices for food and petroleum go thru the roof but we lost American pride and integrity. Lots of it. So don't be so hard on Trump during the first couple months. Things have to get worse before they can get better. We know for sure that Trump can't possible run the country worse than Biden.
Dear Ben,
While this is your blog and You can do whatever You want,
I really don´t appreciated your actions and eliminating, censoring and ignoring Mr. Tim Dunn, He is very intelligent, he has great and deep knowledge of the aviation industries, in fact, many of his comments are right on spot. I do research in the aviation business and His comments are well appreciated.
It does not speak well about yourself when You quiet voices in an open forum just because they are not convenient for You.
I still consider that Your blog is the best in the business and have great respect for You, since we also share the same passion.
It also applies to things manufactured in the EU. It's just sales tax, same as many states have in the US. Gives no "unfair" advantage to importers or exporters.
I'm curious how he continued to have so much time to spend commenting. What job does Tim Dunn have?
I've always wondered, who the hell is that guy even? Like, who is Tim Dunn, the person? Who decides to spend their time so fervently defending their favorite company in some random corner of the internet? I'm a very avid reader of your blog, been reading daily for about a decade now, but every time I see a new blog post he's already there in the comments. It's almost like he just sits around refreshing your homepage waiting for new articles to be posted. Does he work for Delta?
I'm very disappointed with what Trump has done with the stock market and I'm not a big Delta guy because they don't have much of a presence in my area. However, I certainly respect the CEO's response to not accept deliveries that include tariffs. It's just good business sense no matter which way you lean politically.
@James given that we see plane delivery deferrals with some regularity I expect there is probably language in the purchase contract allowing for it.
The EU engages in tarriff and non tarriff barriers. The French protect their inefficient farms by limiting American agriculture products without a scientific basis. The Germans use high VAT to limit domestic consumer demand while exporting excess product. The EU is the master of excess regulation to prevent imports.
If you are that confident, short the market. No one can predict q3 or q4, or how the Fed reacts. March for instance had 228000 jobs created.
Tariffs are paid by the seller. It is then up to the seller to decide how much of the tariff to include in the price of their product.
Avionics, engines, ect... maybe American made so I doubt that $300M would be tarriffed. A good law firm will work out a lease agreement where Delta won't pay anything.
This is so funny.
Hey guys, here are the rules if you want to join the conversation. Person agrees. Person consistently doesn’t follow the rules and it’s taken out of the conversation. Then idiot person says person is being censored.
Disclaimer and disclosure: I loathe The Dearest Donald.
But in fairness, having taken an airline into bankruptcy would count as useful experience. Airlines have filed for bankruptcy literally hundreds of times in the last 50 years.
The industry magically combined almost superhuman competence in flight operations with lethargic incompetence in business operations—and in everything else.
I think Bastian is just negotiating, in public, with Airbus. The seller, Airbus, is who pays the tariff and then it is up to Airbus to decide how much of the “tariff” to include in the price of their aircraft. With say a 10% tariff Airbus might absorb 5% and try to charge Delta, or any other airline, the other 5%. But I have to assume that Delta has a contract with Airbus to buy their aircraft at a previous agreed upon price. Depending on how the contract is written, Airbus may be on the hook for the entire amount of the tariff.
Bastian probably didn't think any of those things about how wonderful Trump is, really. It's just that Trump is into making people kiss his ass publicly, so Bastian was doing what was necessary to gain his approval.
Oh brother... I don't want to be banned, better not write what I think of your post.
But technically Airbus isn't paying, Delta is. I assume you mean Bastian is playing hardball in order to get Airbus to cover it?
There are laws in place for CEOs who don't follow the law. Those are just called laws, and the beauty of them is the President doesn't need to be involved for them to work. Delta is not breaking a law, it just doesn't want to pay a tariff, meaning it either won't get its planes or someone else will pay the tariff. Seems like it's hoping Airbus will, or Trump will lower them.
Laws that enable a president to fire someone at a company because they don't like what they're saying is a dictatorship, and it always surprises me that ideas like this are coming out of the mouths of Americans, land of the free. And yes, China is a dictatorship with better branding.
@flyerDon~ I would like to say to you that your understanding of how tariffs operate is muddled. However I can't do that: your understanding is zero, same as that of the bozo imposing them.
So this is three purposes in 1:
1. Blanket complaint to Trump, although I'm not sure it'll bother him because it just means fewer competing (superior?) European products.
2. An excuse / leverage for cheaper deferrals. Delta isn't doing hot and doesn't think the next 12 months will be great, wants delivery flexibility. Is also loosely saying 'we could go to Boeing but don't want to do that more than we have.'
3. Delta is encouraging Airbus to put some sort of production finishing plant in place or leverage their A220 plant to better manage this. I'm not even sure if that would work.
You'd think that the CEO of an Airline would know the definition of "airline". Airbus is an airplane manufacturer, not an airline. Explains a lot of the problems people have experienced with Delta..."Wait, our company does what again?"
@Em
Biden's policies gave us a fully employed economy while recovering from the COVID pandemic, generated more jobs and more manufacturing jobs specifically than any other president in the past 40 years, gave the bottom 50% earnest the biggest real wage increases they've seen in decades, all at the price of a little inflation that people moaned about but didn't affect their buying habits.
The difference could not be more stark, Biden and his team dodged a recession that economists thought was unavoidable and made life better for the middle and working class with unprecedent real wage gains and job growth. Trump has surrounded himself with yes-men and cranks, ham-handedly dumped the stock market, crashing people's retirements and savings. Even during his first term with more targeted tariffs, he raised costs on average Americans and didn't get many manufacturing jobs in return. Trump didn't even outperform Obama, Clinton, or Jimmy Carter. All of them generated more jobs than Trump did, and two of them came into office with trash economies to work with. Trump was given a great economy the first time around, did nothing with it, now he's about to trash the second one he was given.
@FlyerDon
Flat wrong, tariffs are paid by the importer. If Delta buys Airbus planes built in France, Delta pays the tariffs. If Boeing has to buy parts abroad (which they do) to assemble their planes in Washington or South Carolina, they pay tariffs on those parts.
Yes, I am from Merida (MID), Yucatan, Mexico.
You are more than welcome to visit,
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Dear Eduardo_br,
I don´t know You, but the way You write and express Yourself tells so much about You. This is an open forum try to have some education and respect for yourself and for others.
Several Presidents of both parties have recognized the gross unfairness of our foreign suppliers and competitors and have done nothing to fix the problem. I don't like everything about how the current administration is trying to fix the situation, but at least they are trying. Airbus has and can continue to expand assembly in the United States to avoid tariffs as has been done in the past in the automotive industry. It is not beyond their capabilities. Delta is right and will help correct the problem.
The tariff goes to the manufacturer. The manufacturer then decides whether to pass the cost of the tariff on to their customer. They don’t have to but most will. The idea of the tariff is to force the manufacturer to start making their products in the USA to avoid paying the tariff and passing that cost onto their customer. They tariff is also supposed to level the playing field by raising the price of imports so that domestically produced products can compete with them. Unfortunately there are few domestically manufactured products that are produced with 100 percent American parts. You can’t buy an iPhone that is manufactured in this country, let alone with 100 percent American made parts. The same goes for aircraft. All the tariffs are going to do is raise the costs of manufacturers who then must decide how much of that “cost’ to pass on to their customers.
Tariffs are charged at the border on import. So the importer, in this case Delta, is responsible for it. Airbus can lower this price to make the lowered price+tariff equal to the old price, but that would just eat into their margins.
Delta takes ownership of the plane in at the factory in France, at the point, it's their responsibility to pay the tariff
I've bought electronics from Japan and shipped them here. I always get a second bill from CBP/FedEx to pay the bill to release the item
A finishing plant in the US, like they already have in Alabama, saves the customer from paying the tariff on the final/sale value of the plane. But if there are foreign components that are needed in Alabama, those still get tariffed (on their own component sale value) and eventually Airbus would have to increase the price of US made airframes.
Can Delta just reject and order like this? Like how is this even possible in terms of why would Airbus allow it in the contract? this would just hurt Airbus so much more where they have built the plane and haven't received any money for it?
Thank you. I'm all for healthy fact-based debate, but with Tim it was 95% of the time taking die-hard pro-Delta and cherry picked opinions and presenting them as fact and sometimes it even felt like the word of god in how much he believed in them
Finally someone who actually understands how tariffs work.
The level of confusion just proves how little the public knows or understands what's at stakes with blanket tariffs.
I ask again, what is this "gross unfairness" you and others keep harping about? Give concrete examples. Does it just boil down to "how dare foreign companies build things in their own countries"? Should Japan require Boeing to set up factories in their country to supply the 787s that the Japanese airlines ordered? Should Vietnam require the same for Bamboo Airways? After all, it's unfair to Japan and Vietnam that they have to use foreign labor to build the products they use. Do you see how ridiculous this line of thinking is?
Not from the US, but wouldn’t it be possible to register these aircraft in another country and then operate them in the states? Or for delta to sell them immediately and then lease them back? Many aircraft in Europe are registered in Ireland (presumably due to many aircraft lessors being based there), but operated by airlines in many different countries, without ever touching down in Ireland.
Tim got an R&R. Sounds like an enhancement, much like sentencing to a concentration camp is a vacation. He was banned.
I am sorry that Ben speak in enhancement language. That is too bad. He should just say it like it is. I'm not sure what he did. Was the over the top pro-Delta that did it or was there something else. I don't read all of Tim's posts.
As for Delta, it depends on what their contract says as far as tariffs. Maybe they forgot to include a clause but maybe not.
Devil is in the details. Airbus production may or may not qualify depending on the way parts are considered.
VW said they can assemble in the US if an engine is deemed a part. However, if they have to determine the origin of every screw in the engine, VW says it's too much red tape.
Agreed 100%, Ben !
.. and it is just not only a 'blanket' 10% !
- The USA exports massive amounts of product to Australia and the trade balance is unequivocally in the USA's favour.
- Despite Australia and the USA having had a Free Trade agreement between both countries for more than 10 years, reciprocity apparently means 'everyone' now.
- Heard Island and McMurdo Island in the Antarctic have no living human beings resident on them - only penguins and native wildlife. Control handed by UK to Australia back in 1947. I wonder how the penguins will react to their new 10% tariff ?
Life is indeed odd.
Any chance you are confusing tariffs with duties? Duties are very common on electronics coming from Asian countries and it sounds like that is what you paid. Tariffs are different and, up till now, there has not been a tariff placed on a civil aircraft in nearly 50 years. It’s still not clear to anyone, including the CBP, what the tariff will be on a 321 assembled in Germany versus one assembled in Alabama. What an unnecessary mess.
Tariffs on Airbus products are supposed to encourage purchase of the U.S. alternative, ie Boeing. Airlines aren't retreating from Boeing due to unfair foreign competition. They're retreating because, compared with Airbus products and procedures, Boeing sucks, putting profit above quality. It's a similar tale for other manufacturers who can't compete with foreign products because the commitment to quality, integrity and service is not part of the U.S. corporate ethic.
Ed, I've had your back 100% since I retired from DAL. PLEASE don't tell me you voted for the orange POS. I'd be so upset, brother.
Contracts specify who pays tariffs and duties.
There is a term that can be included which is referred to as Deliver Duty Paid, in which case it's the seller, but those are quite rare.
If you buy from abroad on Amazon or Ebay then the contract says it's the Buyer, but for small changes Sellers often don't want to offend buyers.
On Alibaba it's usually the Buyer.
In most commerical contracts the importer is the Buyer.
The fact that Bastian is talking like this tells us that on these contracts it's the Buyer.
"so Bastian was doing what was necessary to gain his approval."
Except that Bastian was doing that 2yrs+ before Trump was elected again, let alone inaugurated. He was blathering on back in 2022 about how much better things were under the (at the time) previous (Trump) administration, and never stopped talking about how much he was looking forward to a change in administrative approach, during the Biden years.
Tarrifs are paid by the importer recieving the goods when they cross the border. The manufacturer is never billed or informed of the tarrif.