Air traffic controllers at JFK are known for sometimes having an attitude. However, in this case, I think there’s enough fault to go around…
In this post:
JFK ATC & JetBlue pilot get into it over… well, nothing
This incident happened on Saturday, March 8, 2025, and involves the communication between one of the pilots of JetBlue flight B6815, an A321 headed for San Francisco (SFO), and the tower controller at New York Kennedy Airport (JFK).
There were roughly a dozen planes awaiting departure from runway 31L. Planes were queueing in two different lines, with some on taxiway Z, and some on runway 22L (which wasn’t being used for departures or arrivals). There was a point where the planes were merging, and one of the JetBlue pilots in the queue seemed to think there was confusion regarding the order in which planes were supposed to merge onto the taxiway.
Specifically, the JetBlue pilot seemed to think that the Ethiopian Airlines jet queuing for takeoff wasn’t pulling forward all the way, because the pilots were confused about the correct order. That’s when the heated dialogue began:
JetBlue pilot: “They’re not pulling up because they don’t know your sequence, sir.”
Air traffic controller: “Say again?”
JetBlue pilot: “They’re not pulling up because they don’t know your sequence, sir. They’re afraid they’re gonna cut someone off.”
Air traffic controller: “Who’s speaking? I need a callsign.”
JetBlue pilot: “JetBlue 815, sir, there is a merger here, between a runway and a taxiway. They’re not sure, so they’re hanging back.”
Air traffic controller: “Okay JetBlue 815, I thank you for your input but they were instructed to follow the aircraft in front of them. So they are aware of their sequence.”
JetBlue pilot: “They have no idea if their sequence is behind or in front of the guy to their right.”
Air traffic controller: “Would you like to come and do the job for me?”
JetBlue pilot: “I’d just like you to do it better.”
Air traffic controller: “You’d like me to do it better, sir? I have a number for you to call when you’d like.”
JetBlue pilot: “That’s great. I’d love you to answer it.”
Several minutes later, shortly before it was the JetBlue plane’s turn to take off, the conversation continued as follows:
Air traffic controller: “JetBlue 815, do you need some more time, because we’re still waiting on you to call?”
JetBlue pilot: “I’m ready to go, sir.”
Air traffic controller: “No, are you still gonna call? Do you need some time? Or you’re ready to depart?”
JetBlue pilot: “I’m ready to depart. I was planning on calling you from the other side. I’m on an active taxiway. Wasn’t planning on making a phone call here.”
You can listen to the audio for yourself below, and see a visualization of the location of all aircraft.
Why do some men have to be so insecure?
Typically when I share air traffic control audio, there’s one side that’s a lot more at fault than the other. In this case, I think there’s enough fault to go around, and neither party is innocent. It should be more apparent than ever before that we need to have a good safety culture with accurate and clear communication.
The way I view this interaction:
- There was nothing wrong with the JetBlue pilot chiming in, if he thought there was confusion; however, he should’ve identified himself by the flight’s callsign, because his anonymous feedback came across as a bit peanut gallery-esque
- When the air traffic controller acknowledged the JetBlue pilot’s feedback, the JetBlue pilot shouldn’t have argued further, speaking on behalf of other pilots, and he certainly escalated things when he told the air traffic controller to do his job better
- Then there’s the whole pissing match over having a number to call; that seems unnecessary, as there wasn’t any pilot deviation here, but rather it seems like the equivalent of “oh yeah, I dare you to say that to my face”
- It’s ridiculous of the air traffic controller to expect the JetBlue pilot to call him from an active taxiway, rather than when the plane lands
Is it too much to ask for these two to just do their jobs, chill, try to be friendly, and to not actively seek out conflict?
Bottom line
A JetBlue pilot and a JFK air traffic controller got into a heated exchange. The JetBlue pilot tried to provide some feedback, but then egos were mutually bruised, and ultimately the JetBlue pilot suggested the air traffic controller should do his job better. That went over about as well as you’d expect…
What do you make of this interaction between a JetBlue pilot and JFK ATC?
I write as a professional pilot for over 37 years.
Both this pilot and the controller demonstrate extremely poor personal and professional behaviour, and I would very much hope that neither of them was in charge of my safety on the ground or in the air.
Both show that they are bad-tempered, thin skinned, possibly overstressed and more interested in their own egos than those they are supposed to be safeguarding. If they...
I write as a professional pilot for over 37 years.
Both this pilot and the controller demonstrate extremely poor personal and professional behaviour, and I would very much hope that neither of them was in charge of my safety on the ground or in the air.
Both show that they are bad-tempered, thin skinned, possibly overstressed and more interested in their own egos than those they are supposed to be safeguarding. If they show such poor judgement under routine conditions then I hate to think what errors they might make in an emergency.
Blocking up the airwaves ( that ~ in the USA especially ~ are already full of unnecessary , rushed, non-standard and verbose reporting and comments) with such trivial at a very busy airport is totally unacceptable, and I hope that both the airline and ATC authorities might censure those involved. But I doubt it.
PATCO Controllers weren't that rude..
They were ruder
The ATC comes across worse imo, since they are asking for a safety violation by insisting on an unnecessary call. Definitely bad attitude and improfessionalism
The ATC comes across worse imo, since they are asking for a safety violation by insisting on an unnecessary call. Definitely bad attitude and improfessionalism
Last night, a hostile, argumentative Female Hawaiian Airlines counter agent at KOA made these two men seem humble and respectful.
I asked her if she could move me from 1F to 2E. She asked fir my ID. Then she commanded me to be silent, told me she knows everything every passenger wants, printed up our boarding passes, set them on the counter, then monologued about how many flights she handles, her years of experience,...
Last night, a hostile, argumentative Female Hawaiian Airlines counter agent at KOA made these two men seem humble and respectful.
I asked her if she could move me from 1F to 2E. She asked fir my ID. Then she commanded me to be silent, told me she knows everything every passenger wants, printed up our boarding passes, set them on the counter, then monologued about how many flights she handles, her years of experience, etc. I silently listened, said "Thank you", picked up the unwanted boarding passes, then left.
Women are equally arrogant, condescending, and confrontational as men.
Ok, fair - but neither the article nor any comment before yours was making this about either sex having a monopoly on arrogance, condescension or confrontation.
There is one fundamental difference between this incident and the one discussed yesterday: that in this one, the ATCS caused a slight delay in the departure of the aircraft in question.
While I will argue that the public isn't really in the position to micromanage how we do our jobs, I will also argue the public has the right to expect safe, orderly, expeditious movement of their planes to the extent possible. This controller compromised...
There is one fundamental difference between this incident and the one discussed yesterday: that in this one, the ATCS caused a slight delay in the departure of the aircraft in question.
While I will argue that the public isn't really in the position to micromanage how we do our jobs, I will also argue the public has the right to expect safe, orderly, expeditious movement of their planes to the extent possible. This controller compromised effeciency (even if by a negligible amount). ATC does have professional standards representatives (voluntary duty) that might want to have a chat about that with this guy.
Anyway, here's another newsworthy ATC story that happened last week in New Hampshire, hope you all are as quick to boost its publicity and offer praise as you are to critique us:
https://youtu.be/VDfW0sHrQz8?si=CxMNPl7g8W2YNFcd
I'm from New York, neither a pilot or ATC and as far as I'm concerned The ATC should do a better job. I understand that ATCs are overwhelmed, but safety is paramount. End of discussion.
You talkin’ to me ? I come from hell homeboy. Go shake down 7 eleven for a day old wiener.
I think it's funny that there's a web presence dedicated to people having a bad day. I was a Controller for 28 years, before all this online obsession with ATC-Pilot comms. It was rare I was in a spat with a pilot on the frequency, but I'm glad you weren't around then to publish any of it.
At the risk of offending New Yorkers it’s simply cultural.
Another ahole NYC ATC. The ATC started the conflict with “Would you like to come and do the job for me?” Argumentative and insecure.
Welcome to NYC! I personally enjoy this kind of free-floating, pointless aggression (and it's not just men, either). Somehow it powers me through the day, whereas I just feel sleepy in CA. With that said, I don't really want it taking place between "professionals" who are literally holding people's lives in their hands.
In New York City? Yes, it's too much to ask, because the city offers so many lucrative "specialty" careers (law, tech, medicine, high finance) that the pool of adults who vie for lower paying jobs are those who, for some reason, couldn't cut it. Top reasons for not being...
In New York City? Yes, it's too much to ask, because the city offers so many lucrative "specialty" careers (law, tech, medicine, high finance) that the pool of adults who vie for lower paying jobs are those who, for some reason, couldn't cut it. Top reasons for not being able to cut it are not being chill, not being friendly, and not actively avoiding/resolving conflict.
Have you ever wondered why customer service is so much more cordial in middle America? It's because of fewer opportunities, so friendly, smart people have to slum it in frontline jobs paid hourly. In NYC, if you're friendly and smart, there are considerably better opportunities.
I've generalized a bit but the above is incontrovertibly true yet the peanut gallery will be here in short order to denounce my "trolling" or "fake lawyering." Oh well, Ben, you're a smart person. Enjoy the incremental pageviews and ad revenue from those losers!
Ah yes, everyone would be a lawyer or a doctor if they were just nicer and better at conflict resolution. Perhaps you should present this radical new solution to Sociologists, why haven’t they thought about being nicer!?! Happy to give Ben my ad revenue while replying to this utter pseudo-meritocratic drivel :)
I think when anyone declares something that is not deterministically provable to be *incontrovertibly* true, one opens themselves up to easy criticism. I'm also a New Yorker, and I thought yours was an interesting *theory*, with possible merit as part of a larger theory, but it lacks nuance, and I'd really call it more of a hot take than a fact, as unifying single theories of social phenomena tend to be. Pre-defending yourself from counter-argument...
I think when anyone declares something that is not deterministically provable to be *incontrovertibly* true, one opens themselves up to easy criticism. I'm also a New Yorker, and I thought yours was an interesting *theory*, with possible merit as part of a larger theory, but it lacks nuance, and I'd really call it more of a hot take than a fact, as unifying single theories of social phenomena tend to be. Pre-defending yourself from counter-argument by declaring your theory literally inarguable does not strengthen your case.
Also: how did you bold? Can you use HTML tags in comments?
One notes Ivan, that you can spot the ‘kettle’ which is calling the ‘pot’ black.
Funny, but you don't seem "chill," "friendly," and the type to be "actively avoiding/resolving conflict." Yet I'm guessing you consider yourself successful?
Les Arps died in 1987, Ruth in 2002. They had no children.
Who are you supposed to be?
Why are you using the Arps name?
Geez, I sure hope this wasn't the same ATC controller who recently copped an attitude with a Japan ANA pilot recently. I don't know what's going on with all the snarkiness lately coming out of JFK tower, but something should be done about it. It's extremely unprofessional.
Welcome to New York, Joe. Just the culture here, which is unfortunate because the city could be so much better were the rudeness not endemic.
‘Kettle calling the pot black’, “Rudeness” is “Endemic” herein.
Cue the obsolete Joe who will whine about tough life of ATC.
Pity working on borrowed time because dinosaurs arrived still protecting you.
Matter of time before that crazy billionaire puts you job on autopilot.
ATC is demonstrably stressful and not able to be automated. You've drank far too much AI koolaid if you think that's remotely possible. May I suggest going back to college level math courses, starting with linear algebra, so you can learn the fundamentals of how AI works and begin to realize why AI won't be replacing ATC, like, ever.
To put it another way, "AGI" (artificial general intelligence) is flat out impossible and that's why...
ATC is demonstrably stressful and not able to be automated. You've drank far too much AI koolaid if you think that's remotely possible. May I suggest going back to college level math courses, starting with linear algebra, so you can learn the fundamentals of how AI works and begin to realize why AI won't be replacing ATC, like, ever.
To put it another way, "AGI" (artificial general intelligence) is flat out impossible and that's why AI ATC is impossible.
It cannot be proven that AGI is impossible, however.
@Arps: as I noted in the last post, Eskimo has rewritten the definition of "obsolete" in order to troll. (That or he just isn't that bright).
He might as well be arguing that the dinosaurs were obsolete before the asteroid struck.
That's what they said about navigators and flight engineers.
But good for you, we need you both morale to be high to continue your jobs, even as a fake lawyer, until you are fully replaced.
LOL, The 2 occupation at the front of the obsolete line. At least (fake) lawyers have rigged the system to ensure they're here much much longer. ATC not really.
Pity the two swordsman going into a gun fight but doesn't even know what is a gun.
Eskimo seems to be getting more incoherent by the moment: controllers are obsolete even though there isn't a system in place to replace them, lawyers are fake, "doesn't even know what is a gun", "we need you both morale".
Gunning for a position in the current administration, maybe?
Or is this a giveaway that he's ESL and the best he could do for himself is paid troll?
Maybe Sec. Duffy and Elon Musk are right on this ATC problem… seems like many accidents are waiting to happen because of ATC ego’s (overworked)? Either way, this shows a consistent trend in JFK ATC and it’s not really helpful to anyone.
Musk simply wants to privatize ATC so he can make even more money. You know this. Problems could exist, or everything could actually be fine. That matters not. Musk will say there are problems because no amount of money is enough for him.
What a unhinged take lol
Wow, I'm sure glad we have Duffy and Musk to find problems like this! No one had a clue that we had ATC issues.
A reality teevee schmuck and American's biggest corporate welfare queen are on the job!